Could God have given us forgiveness and salvation without the Cross?

PatricaMcKay

In the past I would have said yes since God is absolutely free, but scripture seems to suggest that God is "constrained" by His nature so that there are some things He cannot do.

For instance...

"He cannot deny himself" (II Tim. 2:13).

"In which it was impossible for God to lie" (Heb. 6:18).

So was God constrained by nature to use the economy that He did to grant us salvation?

Am I right in thinking that this verse suggests so...

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

Matthew 26:39.

alex73

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

In the past I would have said yes since God is absolutely free, but scripture seems to suggest that God is "constrained" by His nature so that there are some things He cannot do.

For instance...

"He cannot deny himself" (II Tim. 2:13).

"In which it was impossible for God to lie" (Heb. 6:18).

So was God constrained by nature to use the economy that He did to grant us salvation?

Am I right in thinking that this verse suggests so...

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

Matthew 26:39.

Yes God could... But he wanted to show us exactly how much he loved us, became man and died this death to show us how he loved us.

PatricaMcKay

alex73 wrote: »

Yes God could... But he wanted to show us exactly how much he loved us, became man and died this death to show us how he loved us.

How do you explain this verse than?

"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."

Hebrews 9:22.

And the verse from Matthew's Gospel as well, surely if it had been possible to save humanity without the Cross God the Father would have answered Christ's prayers?

alex73

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

How do you explain this verse than?

"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."

Hebrews 9:22.

And the verse from Matthew's Gospel as well, surely if it had been possible to save humanity without the Cross God the Father would have answered Christ's prayers?

Christ is God who became man and experienced all the temptations of Man, but didn't fall to temptation. It would have been possible to save man without the Cross, but Gods will was to give the ultimate sacrifice to show how much he loved us.

PatricaMcKay

alex73 wrote: »

Christ is God who became man and experienced all the temptations of Man, but didn't fall to temptation. It would have been possible to save man without the Cross, but Gods will was to give the ultimate sacrifice to show how much he loved us.

Do you know of any scripture that suggests that God could have granted us salvation without the Cross?

alex73

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

Do you know of any scripture that suggests that God could have granted us salvation without the Cross?

No, nothing that comes to mind.

Icepick

alex73 wrote: »

Yes God could... But he wanted to show us exactly how much he loved us, became man and died this death to show us how he loved us.

Are you being sarcastic? How is sending a hologram showing someone you love them?
One would think that, for example, preventing genetic diseases would be a better way.

antiskeptic

I think it would have been impossible for God to forgive without the Cross in the same sense that it's impossible for God to create square circles.

Forgiveness invariably involves (even if at first it doesn't seem apparent) the offended-against paying the cost of the offence themselves. If some git keys the side of my car and I catch and forgive him then it's me who has to pay the cost of the repair myself. Or live with a keyed car.

What I can't do is say "I forgive you - now pay the cost of a re-spray".

God, the offended-against, had to pay the price of sin in order to forgive it. And since the due wage for sin is death...

lmaopml

I think perhaps, that the ultimate reason why God willed it to happen that way is beyond us....perfect knowledge and perfect love are hard to understand from a fallen perspective. Do I believe that he could have done it 'another' way? Yes, most certainly, nothing is beyond God except being anything he 'Is', but he 'willed' that it should be done this way, precisely because he has the 'knowledge', and not because he was 'restricted' in any way.

I think this is related to how we view God's nature too, and our own 'image' that reflects his - originally in 'freedom' to love - Our nature and the blessing of freedom meant we were ultimately fallen because of sin and the 'virtue' of freewill to create for love and also to choose otherwise and 'sin' enters.

I 'think' that God could have just abolished freewill and chosen to make everybody bow - but that would have been inconsistent with his 'love' for us and the respect we have been afforded to make choices, to create etc. in accordance with how we were made.

'Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends'

This is the quote that sticks out to me, moreso than any other really - 'the wages of sin' etc. The whole 'sacrificial' thing is ultimately a gift in 'love' - always was. I think it explains how a Christian views Christ and actually really really 'loves' freely and not in 'fear', because we were shown what love is, and how very real it is. God would have known that we would at one stage in time understood ourselves better in the natural sense and perhaps thought that 'love' is some kind of unimaginative notion driven by chemical impulses and ration etc. etc. I think Jesus died to save us from 'sin' but a whole lot more too, that we learn through the test of time - he proved 'love' is real and tangible - so too have his greatest followers we call 'saints' and admire or try to understand in sincerity and hopefully emulate in our small ways.

FISMA

PatricaMcKay,
I have pondered similar questions from a different point of view. I have been thinking about living a life without sinning: either from cradle to grave or from some point on in your life.

When Jesus speaks to Mary Magdelene he commands her to "go and sin no more." Why would he command her to do something if it were not possible?

Also, I believe that Jesus was fully human and experienced full humanity. If sin is a necessary requirement of humanity, then we have a problem.

Anyhow... back on topic. I have asked myself why come down from heaven? Why not just have a truly awe inspiring miracle - case closed. So to answer your first question, I would say yes.

However, that then leaves me with the "why" question.

What did Jesus accomplish by coming down from heaven? Well one thing, he lived a perfect life, as a human. At the very least, Jesus has demonstrated that it is possible to be human and not sin.

Was that a can of worms I just opened?

Yep!:D

gimmebroadband

.....also Jesus showed us the way we should live!!!

antiskeptic

FISMA wrote: »

I have pondered similar questions from a different point of view. I have been thinking about living a life without sinning: either from cradle to grave or from some point on in your life.

Your time start's now 00:00:01 ...

When Jesus speaks to Mary Magdelene he commands her to "go and sin no more." Why would he command her to do something if it were not possible?

That you know someone will fail to meet your command doesn't make issuing it illogical. When I fall short of his command and the dust settles on my sin and my sin is forgiven, the command is still there telling me what is expected of me. So I rise and strive towards upholding it again.

Also, I believe that Jesus was fully human and experienced full humanity. If sin is a necessary requirement of humanity, then we have a problem.

The argument would go that our sinful natures (that thing within us which is drawn to sin) makes us less than human. Or fallen humans if you like. Jesus was more fully human that we are. He didn't have a sin nature.

What did Jesus accomplish by coming down from heaven? Well one thing, he lived a perfect life, as a human. At the very least, Jesus has demonstrated that it is possible to be human and not sin.

Was that a can of worms I just opened?

Yep!:D

The issue of our fallen vs. his unfallen nature closes this particular can of worms. It was possible for him to evade sin (even though we might need to conclude that it was possible for him to fall) whereas it's not possible for us to evade sin - at least not for longer than a few moments at a time