Choices to make...advice please!

Lola92

I am a Roman Catholic, or at least I was raised one, but I suppose our family was of the á la carte variety. When I was younger we went to church every week, said prayers before bed etc. As I got older we all got busier, various sports and activities came before going to mass and to be honest it all fell a bit by the wayside.

I never was very religious, although I do consider myself to be spiritual. I am now at a stage where I do go to church on occasions - Christmas, Easter, Weddings, Funerals, Christenings, Communions and Confirmations etc. but to be blunt I feel I could take it or leave it.

Myself and my partner have an 8 month old baby girl, the big debate at the moment is whether or not to have her christened. As mentioned above, we do not attend church on any kind of a regular basis and the recent stories of abuse etc. within the RCC have really shook whatever faith we may have had left (He would have had a similar religious upbringing to myself).

I feel a bit in crisis - One one hand I do not want to support an institution who for decades have participated in covering up the abuse of children and that I feel also has some very outdated and backward teachings on topics such as contraception/sex before marriage/divorce among other things.

Ideally I would like my child to learn about various faiths and religions from us and to choose, if should she wish to do so, when she is mature and old enough to do so of her own accord.

However, my partner and I both grew up as catholics, it is the only kind of childhood we know. I don't think I actually know anyone without a defined faith (shocking myself here). It is very much the 'done thing' in both of our families to have a child baptised at a young age, take part in communion & confirmation also when the time comes.

Now I am usually no crowd follower, but this really does have me doubting myself. I don't want to stand up at an alter and swear things that I am not even sure I believe in. I also don't want my daughter to be excluded when the time comes for First Holy Communion and all of her friends would be taking part.

Anyway this post is a lot more rambling than I imagined, but I would appreciate any input/advice.

Thanks, Lola

homer911

Hi Lola. You are not alone. There are many parents out there with exactly the same issues, but choose to be crowd followers as you call them.

The purpose of infant baptism is for the parents to make a commitment on behalf of the child, until they are old enough to take on that commitment for themselves. If you have no real faith to speak of yourselves, regardless of your background, then it would be dishonest of you to make a public commitment, when it seems to mean little or nothing to you.

The best advice would be to understand your own faith first (various opportunities such as Alpha courses exist). If you dont feel the inclination to do this, then there is no point in getting your child baptised - it doesn't make them a Christian. What you should do though is follow up your intentions and help the child (when they are old enough) to discover their own faith. There are many Catholic, Protestant and interdenominational para-church organisations that work with young people to help them do that. I can personally recommend the likes of CEF, OM and Scripture Union.

You have the benefit of having at least grown up within a church/religious environment. We are starting to see the emergence of an generation that are entirely "unchurched" - please don't let your own child be one of them

MrPudding

I think that when you don’t believe in an institution, or don’t believe what that institution is teaching, then you do both yourself and that institution a disservice by pretending to go along with it.

In the interests of full disclosure, I am an atheist with a fairly strong dislike of the catholic church, so there may be some bias, please take that into consideration.

I have four children. Three of them have been baptised. They were baptised to avoid confrontation with relatives. This is the wrong reason and I very much regret having them baptised. My forth child has not, and will not been baptised, unless she chooses to herself as an adult.

You might want to consider something like a humanist naming service. It is a non-religious ceremony to introduce your child to friends and family. I am optimistic that the days where your child would not get into a decent school because they were not baptised are slipping away.

I know how difficult this decision is for you, but if you analyse it you will see that baptism is the wrong choice here. Deciding not to baptise is not a final decision. You can always decide to have a baptism later, or your child can when she has had a chance to make her own decision. If you choose to get her baptised that cannot be undone, and you may live to regret it.

Perhaps if more people like yourself, I mean people that are conflicted, choose not to get children baptised for what is realistically the wrong reason, it might send a message to the church and the government.

MrP

gimmebroadband

You say that the CC is backward and out dated in it's teachings, Jesus said Heaven and Earth will pass away but my words will not pass away. I believe in the teachings of the Catholic Church, and don't base my faith on it's members!!

The Sacraments are the life-blood of the church but some parents don't take it seriously and see is as an occasion for a day out, and never darken the church again!

Lola92

homer911 and MrPudding thanks for your input. I really appreciate you taking the time to reply.

Just to clarify, were I to have my daughter baptised I would bring her to church, teach her about her faith and other faiths for that matter*. I am not at all saying I would have her baptised and she would never enter a church again until the day she takes her first communion. I do understand that this is a big commitment and one I am not taking lightly (hence my posting here).

Don't get me wrong, I do also think that there are great aspects to Catholicism. After the death of my grandparents I took great solace in the whole idea of heaven and being 'saved' I suppose you would call it. I also really like the idea that there is a god watching over you and taking care of you etc.


Mr Pudding I appreciate your position. I certainly would hate to look back and regret whichever decision I had made. There is no real pressure from either family in our case however. (My partners mother became quite disillusioned with the RCC having herself been a young unmarried mother in Rural Ireland in the 70's.) I also understand that should we wish to have her baptised in the future we could do so.

To us the ceremony/party aspect isn't particularly important (in relation to that naming ceremony) although it is a nice idea as an alternative to a christening.

With regard to the schools aspect I suppose that is playing in the back of my mind. There is tough competition for places in the gaelscoil we would like her to attend, the only one near us. Incidentally it is a catholic school, I would hate for her religion/lack therof to affect the likelyhood of her getting in but it is an unfortunate reality.

You are right by the way - conflicted is exactly the word to describe my situation.

I suppose in a way I am also scared of the unknown, and that unknown for me is having a child with no faith. What if something were to happen to her and she died? Where would she be buried? Would she get into heaven? Ridiculous as that may sound I am sitting here in tears thinking that she might not.

ETA: *I personally believe it is vital to have at least a very basic understanding of the beliefs of other cultures and religions.

Slushfund

I find the Catholic faith is a sound one, regardless of the calibre of some of the people who pretend to follow and preach it. I have met far more decent honourable Catholics and Clergy than dishonest ones. I wouldn't let the media and current fashions decide your faith for you.

I felt like you several years ago, I was too busy with life and family etc. to bother much about Catholicism, mass etc. which I found quite boring. I had a belief in God and the spiritual, but I suspected much of the Catholic faith was probably made up of a lot of added on mumbo jumbo.

I then ended up in a fairly nasty and serious situation in work, it really shook my faith in humanity. I attended mass very occasionally, but one particular Sunday, for once, I was paying attention to the bible readings and gospel. I realised that although fashions come and go, the advice in the bible is timeless. All life's real problems are discussed and explained there, the same type of problems we all have now.

So I started to attend Mass a bit more often and listen the bible readings each Sunday. I found the advice contained therein helped me a lot with my current ongoing day to day problems.

I still was not happy with the Catholic Church, I reckoned they had added too much on over the years, so I started to study the doctrines and their origins, and to my great surprise found they all went back to the earliest Christians. The more I studied it, to my great surprise, the more it made sense.

I also realised that Mass is really a two-part event. The first half is the bible, the word of God, and the second half is the celebration of the Eucharist, the source and summit of Christian life. Mass ceased to be boring any more once I understood these fundamental concepts.

Now I can't believe the change, I actually look forward to Mass, if you knew me, you'd know that is a big change for me ! (Hint, you don't have to go to your local parish Mass if you don't like the Priest's style, they all have a slightly different one, find a Priest who's homilies you like and can identify with)

Anyway, in your case, if you still believe anything about Christianity, baptise the child, she can always opt out when she's older. Also I often think of all the previous generations of our ancestors who stuck it out through penal laws and famine to pass the Catholic faith on to us today. So don't mind the current fashions and fads which will come and go, don't be too quick to bin your Catholic faith or your daughter's.

Lola92

gimmebroadband wrote: »

You say that the CC is backward and out dated in it's teachings, Jesus said Heaven and Earth will pass away but my words will not pass away. I believe in the teachings of the Catholic Church, and don't base my faith on it's members!!

The Sacraments are the life-blood of the church but some parents don't take it seriously and see is as an occasion for a day out, and never darken the church again!

Yes gimmebroadband, I do believe that some of the teachings of the catholic church are outdated (those mentioned above). I do also agree with some of their teachings.
I'm sure you can also appreciate how myself and others like me are no longer quite the devoted Catholics we may once have been due to the actions (and lack of actions!) of some members of clergy in Ireland - these are not just members, as you suggest, but the those with the designated job of teaching laypeople about catholicism and guiding their faith!

For the record I have no desire for a 'big day out'. If I wanted one of those I would just throw a party. I do take this decision very seriously, if I did not I wouldn't be asking myself and all of you these questions.

Onesimus

Lola92 wrote: »

homer911 and MrPudding thanks for your input. I really appreciate you taking the time to reply.

Just to clarify, were I to have my daughter baptised I would bring her to church, teach her about her faith and other faiths for that matter*. I am not at all saying I would have her baptised and she would never enter a church again until the day she takes her first communion. I do understand that this is a big commitment and one I am not taking lightly (hence my posting here).

Don't get me wrong, I do also think that there are great aspects to Catholicism. After the death of my grandparents I took great solace in the whole idea of heaven and being 'saved' I suppose you would call it. I also really like the idea that there is a god watching over you and taking care of you etc.


Mr Pudding I appreciate your position. I certainly would hate to look back and regret whichever decision I had made. There is no real pressure from either family in our case however. (My partners mother became quite disillusioned with the RCC having herself been a young unmarried mother in Rural Ireland in the 70's.) I also understand that should we wish to have her baptised in the future we could do so.

To us the ceremony/party aspect isn't particularly important (in relation to that naming ceremony) although it is a nice idea as an alternative to a christening.

With regard to the schools aspect I suppose that is playing in the back of my mind. There is tough competition for places in the gaelscoil we would like her to attend, the only one near us. Incidentally it is a catholic school, I would hate for her religion/lack therof to affect the likelyhood of her getting in but it is an unfortunate reality.

You are right by the way - conflicted is exactly the word to describe my situation.

I suppose in a way I am also scared of the unknown, and that unknown for me is having a child with no faith. What if something were to happen to her and she died? Where would she be buried? Would she get into heaven? Ridiculous as that may sound I am sitting here in tears thinking that she might not.

Lola. You say you want your child to be able to choose. But you want whats good for your child right? Most children dont get to choose much in life such as what school they want to go to, or what clothes they should wear because the parents make these good choices for them. Having your child baptised in the Church is a good choice to make for your child. When he grows up to be older and decide the Church is not for him then his baptism shouldnt matter to him because if he doesnt believe in it then it should have no effect.

Not every Catholic who goes to Church is able to swallow her teaching whole, but they still go. You may not obey every teaching but there is a difference. I accept the teaching, but just because I fail to live it out in different areas does not mean I cease to be Catholic. I go and confess my sins once a month, once a week or once a year as prescribed by the Church and I get on with it.

Dont be thinking just because you had sex before marriage or find it hard to obey the teachings that it's all over for you now, there is no point in being Catholic. The confession box is there for a reason. And Lord knows I use it more than others :eek::D

Gimmebroadband is right, no matter what faith you are in there is going to be scandals. Even Atheists commit the crimes and scandals you speak of. But it does not mean there is anything wrong with the teaching of Christ.

It is clear from your posts that you do believe in Christ and the afterlife. Not baptising your child therefore and giving him/her the option to enter this afterlife could prove to a very serious decision. This is a soul we are speaking of. Dont allow yourself to be caught up in the secular view of things.

Whatever decision you may make, it is as always, your decision and I will pray for your situation.

God bless you and keep you safe.

Onesimus.

Zombrex

You seem to only believe in a half hearted version of Catholicism. I think the Catholics here (I'm an atheist) would tell you that it doesn't work like that, being 'spiritual' is not being Christian. Being Christian is believing in Jesus and the teachings of the Christian church, what ever your interpretation of that is. Being Catholic means all that and believing that the Catholic church is Jesus' church.

I would suspect you, like many cultural-Catholics in Ireland, would actually be quite turned off by the actual teachings of the religion you are a member of if you looked at them in depth.

For example, do you believe in the churches stance on homosexuality, abortion, sex before marriage, and other sins that modern people regular commit. Do you believe in things like Papal infallibility and other doctrines of the RCC?

Most of my Catholic friends for example live together with their partners, regularly have pre-marital sex, seen no issue with homosexual relationships, see no issue with abortion etc. I've pointed out to them that all that goes against Catholic teaching and the response is that "you aren't supposed to take those things that seriously". Again I think some of the Catholics on this forum would have something to say about that.

Christianity, and Catholicism is far more than simply the nice idea that we survive death.

I think you would be doing a diservice to both yourself, your children, and the Catholic church if you raised them in a religion you either don't understand particularly well or don't even believe in.

Lola92

Onesimius, thank you for your post. With regard to some of what you said about confessions, I could never look to be absolved of something unless I truly did regret and feel sorry for doing it and to be honest I don't feel any need whatsoever to seek absolution for some of my so-called 'sins'. I can see that confession obviously works for you though, IMO anything that gives a person peace of mind is worth it in their particular situation.
I do agree of course, no culture or organisation is perfect. I think what particularly unnerves me is the fact that the whole abuse centered around those who most needed protection - children. It is not so much the abuse that disturbs me (although that alone in itself was and is horrific), but the fact that it was covered up for so long, so many blind eyes were turned, no one was prepared to stand up and be accountable, and they still aren't to this day. In any case that is a rant for another day and one not exclusive to the realms of the catholic church.

Wicknight you are right on some counts there. As I specifed in the OP I would describe myself as an 'á la carte' catholic, as they say, but more spiritual than anything else. I have absolutely no issue with homosexuality/premarital sex and some of the other things that you mentioned that the catholic church is against. I take what I like about the faith and believe, the rest I could leave. To many people that may seem wrong but short of creating my own 'perfect religion' what more can be done? There are bad aspects to everything in life.

No, I do not understand every aspect of catholicism, but then again I am neither a priest nor theologian. In any case I believe that discovery and learning about ones faith is a lifelong process.

After writing all of this and reading your responses, along with some of the other threads in this forum, I think I do have more faith than I though I did. Whether or not it is enough to pass the faith on to my daughter is another thing.

CiaranMT

Lola92 wrote: »

After writing all of this and reading your responses, along with some of the other threads in this forum, I think I do have more faith than I though I did. Whether or not it is enough to pass the faith on to my daughter is another thing.

I am interested to know why you would like to 'pass it on'.

I am guessing that, like you said previously, it's just the done thing?

Why not let her make the choice herself, as an adult? Let Catholicism win her over on it's own merits, rather than making a choice for her.

Lola92

CiaranMT wrote: »

I am interested to know why you would like to 'pass it on'.

I am guessing that, like you said previously, it's just the done thing?

Why not let her make the choice herself, as an adult? Let Catholicism win her over on it's own merits, rather than making a choice for her.

Hi Ciaran,

I think partly it has to do with family tradition. My parents, grandparents and great-grandparents were all catholic, as were those of my partner. Also, we pass a lot of different things on to our children - talents, mannerisms, physical appearance, personality traits, etc. Some due to genetics, others due to the example by which we live our own lives. I think faith is a part of that.

As for your suggestion to let her choose herself when the time comes, it is something that I am considering. However, as it is not something that either myself or my partner have personal experience of, we are a little unsure as how to proceed should we choose that option. I have mentioned previously that irrespective of her baptism (or not) we would teach her about all of the major religions - their culture and what their practice entails.

Should she wish to practice any faith when she is mature enough to choose one we would support her in that also.

antiskeptic

Lola92 wrote: »

Now I am usually no crowd follower, but this really does have me doubting myself. I don't want to stand up at an alter and swear things that I am not even sure I believe in. I also don't want my daughter to be excluded when the time comes for First Holy Communion and all of her friends would be taking part.

The basis for your partaking of that which the Roman church offers strikes me as pretty weak. You've a vague notion (comfort driven?) of the existance of God and so, it would appear that 'accident of birth' has you considering walking into a Catholic church with your child. Were you of similar weak-faith but born in England then it'd likely be the Church of England you'd be considering. If born in Israel it'd be a synagogue you'd be heading for.

You'd have to ask yourself (at risk of making a god in your own image and likeness) whether any God would place much value on what are essentially lies (uttering that which you consider false).

It's natural not to want your child segregated in any way but having attended a couple of communion/confirmation services which bordered on farce (no one knew what the responses were nor when to stand up or kneel or sit down - fall down comical, if somewhat tragic) you really have to examine the herd-mentality side of the argument.

alex73

As a Catholic who has seen all sides of the Church you have to differentiate from the sinners who did the abuse and covered it up and the Church, founded by Christ.

If you base your faith in the men, when these men fall your faith will aswell.

The abusers and those who covered up, will die and move on and will face Gods Judgement.

So know your faith and know what you a rejecting. The church is not an institution.

Zombrex

Lola92 wrote: »

Wicknight you are right on some counts there. As I specifed in the OP I would describe myself as an 'á la carte' catholic, as they say, but more spiritual than anything else. I have absolutely no issue with homosexuality/premarital sex and some of the other things that you mentioned that the catholic church is against. I take what I like about the faith and believe, the rest I could leave. To many people that may seem wrong but short of creating my own 'perfect religion' what more can be done? There are bad aspects to everything in life.

Well the obvious thing to be done is not be a Christian. Picking and choosing the various aspects of Christianity to believe or reject would seem to run counter to Christianity itself, and if you are going to do that why be a Christian at all?

prinz

Lola92 wrote: »

Myself and my partner have an 8 month old baby girl, the big debate at the moment is whether or not to have her christened..

My advice... don't stand up and swear to do something you have no intention of following through on.

Lola92 wrote: »

I feel also has some very outdated and backward teachings on topics such as contraception/sex before marriage/divorce among other things.Ideally I would like my child to learn about various faiths and religions from us and to choose, if should she wish to do so, when she is mature and old enough to do so of her own accord.

Are you going to teach her that the RCC has backward and outdated teachings? Do you honestly think that's the right way to go about it? Are you going to teach your child objectively?

Lola92 wrote: »

I also don't want my daughter to be excluded when the time comes for First Holy Communion and all of her friends would be taking part.

If that's what is giving you doubt, I'd suggest you don't bother.

Lola92

I am sorry but I feel I am being somewhat selectively quoted here. Regarding the 'fitting it' it is not the main reason for considering this. And to be clear that is all I am doing at the moment - considering what action my partner and I should take with regard to the spiritual upbringing of our child.

I appreciate that everyone has their own views and opinions on the matter but as previously stated I WILL NOT be someone to christen my daughter and leave it at that. I would teach her about god, her faith and the gospel stories and parables that my own parents taught me about. I will teach her right from wrong in the eyes of god, as I myself was thought.

I will not force my own thoughts on her, she will be well able to form her own as she grows and matures. If she reaches a stage in her adult life where she comes to say 'do you know what mum I don't think I want to be a christian, xxxxx might be a better option for me', then fine - it will be her decision to make.

Maybe you see it to be wrong not to accept every facet of the church without question, but that is not the person that I am. I believe that it is healthy and good to challenge and question what you are taught, including ones faith and beliefs, even life around you! From this you get a better and deeper understanding of how things work IMO.

One poster mentioned that I relied on faith for comfort - this is true! I do take great comfort and solace in many aspects of religion. I think many of us do, be it consciously or subconsciously. We all want to know that when we should die that there is more than just cold dirt for the rest of eternity. We like to know that there is a higher being safeguarding us as we make our way through life.


In the end of the day I believe that I had a good childhood, and growing up with catholicism was a big part of that. Catholicism has played a big part in making me who I am today. Although I may not now be a 100% devout christian does that mean I should want any less of a childhood for my daughter? Is it fair that I should deny her the right to grow with knowledge of god as I did? These are just some of the questions that I struggle with.

I need to feel that I am doing the best I can by my child, criticize me all you want for it. I know at least I am being honest and upfront with you all when perhaps it would be easier just to had her christened without a second thought? Thank you all for your input regardless.

Zombrex

Lola92 wrote: »

I appreciate that everyone has their own views and opinions on the matter but as previously stated I WILL NOT be someone to christen my daughter and leave it at that. I would teach her about god, her faith and the gospel stories and parables that my own parents taught me about. I will teach her right from wrong in the eyes of god, as I myself was thought.

I think the point being made is that given that you hold belief's contrary to Catholic teaching what is the point of baptizing her Catholic and then teaching her beliefs contrary to Catholicism?

Catholics, with some justification, could see this as a cynical attempt to get the benefits of Catholicism (eg access to schools) without actually teaching Catholicism.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think you should be teaching your child the "backward" teachings of the RCC either (I'm an atheist). But even I think it is inappropriate to then pretend that you and your children are Catholic.

You aren't, and as far as I can see you don't want to be, so why pretend otherwise. It does neither yourself, your children, nor the Church itself an favours.

Onesimus

A person ceases to be Catholic when they quite knowingly know the truth and refuse to accept it. Just because Lola fails to grasp the fullness of the faith or has yet to ask questions and assent to it does not mean she is denied salvation. God's mercy is greater than we know.


No Catholic is expected to be wholly immaculate straight away. Life as a Catholic is not just about peace but it is also a struggle. There are those who accept the faith's teachings but fail to practice them, these too risk their salvation by their disobedience, but it does not mean they cease to be Catholic. There are those who have yet to study their faith and assent to it also, this is known as partial ignorance and God waits patiently for them to accept his great teaching.

There are those who lead the path of spiritual perfection ( monks hermits ), they practice and accept the teachings of the Church, yet many were baptised and lukewarm Catholics like myself at one stage before they assented to the fullness of faith. and yet if you were to ask them ''are you as Catholic as you should be?'' even they would humbly say ''No, I need to be more Catholic than I am''.

Lola is correct that she should not deny her child the right to enter the kingdom.

Go for it Lola and God bless you. Thanks for coming into the forum and sharing your predicament with us.

Onesimus

prinz

Lola92 wrote: »

Maybe you see it to be wrong not to accept every facet of the church without question, but that is not the person that I am.

You are confusing accepting ever facet of the Roman Catholic Church with accepting every facet of Christ.

Lola92 wrote: »

I should deny her the right to grow with knowledge of god as I did?

No, but you should be upfront about your wish to teach her about your god, it's not exactly the Christian God. If you want to teach her the bits and pieces you find palatable go ahead, but that's your faith.

Tim Robbins

Lola92 wrote: »

I am a Roman Catholic, or at least I was raised one, but I suppose our family was of the á la carte variety. When I was younger we went to church every week, said prayers before bed etc. As I got older we all got busier, various sports and activities came before going to mass and to be honest it all fell a bit by the wayside.

I never was very religious, although I do consider myself to be spiritual. I am now at a stage where I do go to church on occasions - Christmas, Easter, Weddings, Funerals, Christenings, Communions and Confirmations etc. but to be blunt I feel I could take it or leave it.

Myself and my partner have an 8 month old baby girl, the big debate at the moment is whether or not to have her christened. As mentioned above, we do not attend church on any kind of a regular basis and the recent stories of abuse etc. within the RCC have really shook whatever faith we may have had left (He would have had a similar religious upbringing to myself).

I feel a bit in crisis - One one hand I do not want to support an institution who for decades have participated in covering up the abuse of children and that I feel also has some very outdated and backward teachings on topics such as contraception/sex before marriage/divorce among other things.

Ideally I would like my child to learn about various faiths and religions from us and to choose, if should she wish to do so, when she is mature and old enough to do so of her own accord.

However, my partner and I both grew up as catholics, it is the only kind of childhood we know. I don't think I actually know anyone without a defined faith (shocking myself here). It is very much the 'done thing' in both of our families to have a child baptised at a young age, take part in communion & confirmation also when the time comes.

Now I am usually no crowd follower, but this really does have me doubting myself. I don't want to stand up at an alter and swear things that I am not even sure I believe in. I also don't want my daughter to be excluded when the time comes for First Holy Communion and all of her friends would be taking part.

Anyway this post is a lot more rambling than I imagined, but I would appreciate any input/advice.

Thanks, Lola

Would you not try a Protestant Church? Quite a selection to choose from and have not been tainted with the scame scandals...