Buying German Shepherd pup...!?!

sara025

I have some fairly straightforward questions but I thought I'd give some background first as I know some of the responses I'll get if I dont...

My husband and I have been discussing getting a pup as a new addition to our family (we have a seven year old daughter & one one the way).
We rescued a German Shepherd X Lab a few years ago and she died of cancer and we've been thinking long and hard about replacing her...so basically we want a German Shepherd pup, just GS, not a X breed this time though!

I have been looking at rescue centres and pounds and ads for people giving up their pups for months now, and theres a few German Shepherds out there, just they are 8-9 months and older.
Our last rescue dog was 9 months when we got her & even though she was beautiful, kind and loveable...she was a bit crazy & I know she would have matured differently if we had her from a pup (although she was only 2 when she died).

So I turned to breeders...went onto an Irish German Shepherd website (dont know if I can mention it here, so I wont). This site had alot of information on what to watch out for with breeders and what questions to ask and generally loads of info for me...with the offer of emailing them to ask specific questions.
So I emailed them and they passed my number onto some breeders...longstory short, I'm being offeredpups for 400-700 euro!
I was abit shocked...I asked in the email for suggested breeders & stated what I wanted the pup for...so I'm not looking for a show dog or excellent bloodline...just the usual decent hips/elbow score in both parents & good temperments in them too...

So my main question is seeing as theres so many ads for pups ranging from 100 euro ("purebred, good bloodline etc") to 700 euro (same "purebred, good bloodline etc") what the flip is the difference!?

Im at a loss here, as I would rather not fork out aload for a pup when theres so many stray dogs out there, I hate the thought of certain breeders profiting when this is the case.

Any help on the subject would be greatly appreciated...and apologies right here right now if I sound a bit duh! on the subject!

Sara

ISDW

A reputable breeder will have incurred a lot of charges. They will have had both parents hip scored and any other health tests that GSDs are prone to. They probably won't own the sire as well as the dam, so will have to pay a stud fee. They probably have to travel as well to collect the sire, or pay the travel expenses of the sire owner. They will have spent a long time researching the right lines that compliment their bitch, and may have had to travel to shows all over the country or abroad to find the lines they want.

They will then pay to ensure that the bitch and the pups are treated properly and well by the vet, also ensuring top quality food for the bitch while in pup and after whelping.

All of that adds up.

Someone selling a pedigree pup for €100 has done none of those things and there is a strong possibility the pup could have health issues as it grows up.

ppink

Be very very very careful buying a GS pup!

From what I can see about GS here is the guys breeding who have not a clue nor care very much about the breed (you know the type you get them with all breeds) and then the ones that thought they knew and bred in sloping backs and other issues.

We got one from a rescue and one we bought.....the one we bought has more issues than the rescue one and cost us more in vets bills.

Be sure to get insurance:)

Chris_Heilong

Also be aware that GSD are on the restricted breed list and so will have to be muzzled and on lead at all times when out in public, also they do blow their coats and that means hair everywhere for a while, also they are notorious chewers and some can be over protective of their family and territory if not raised right. All that said I love GSD and would recommend them, loving character and very intelligent. Breeders that charge 700 800 are usually only making a small profit if any for all the reasons ISDW mentioned but I know you cant afford it and the option of cheaper pups is very tempting. BTW pups are really hard work, they **** and piss everywhere and howl like mad when not in the same room as you,not to mention bites and nips. Just saying as you mentioned you got your last dog at 9 months so you missed all those months of stress and madness, I for sure would not turn my nose up at a slightly older rescue GSD, usually the rescue will have assessed the dogs personality and can give you insight before you decide. Good luck.

mymo

Ask to see all health certs for parents, for all the risk conditions for the breed. A good breeder will be only to happy to supply these and answer any questions. A good breeder may have a waiting list, although with the way things are pups aren't selling like they used to.
A good breeder will want to meet you before you take the pup, they'll show you the pups and parent(s) and the conditions the dogs are kept in should be good and clean.
Pups should be happy and healthy looking, not too thin and no pot bellies. They should not be shy of noise or strangers.
The breeder I got my boy from gave me a card with the vacc dates from the vet, copies of his parents papers(his papers hadn't come back yet), copies of health certs for parents and a card with worming dates and type of worm dose used.

My dog is 3 now and the breeder and I still email back and forth sometimes. She's a great help with any questions I had.

Good luck with your search.

sara025

See 'Gerry' on this page...
http://www.irishanimals.ie/gsdall_homes.html
He's beautiful and keep coming back to him, but I was unsure because of my previous experience with older pups...I certainly would love to rescue another dog but am sceptical due to the wildness out of the other one. (And myself and my partner are very knowledgeable in the training that goes into a dog so its not anything to do with that).

I understand the bigger fee from reputable breeders is because of large fees incurred inthe breeding process, & I respect that... but I am looking for a family dog not a show dog with amazing bloodlines, but also a dog who isnt bred arseways I guess is where I'm stuck at.

ISDW

sara025 wrote: »

See 'Gerry' on this page...
http://www.irishanimals.ie/gsdall_homes.html
He's beautiful and keep coming back to him, but I was unsure because of my previous experience with older pups...I certainly would love to rescue another dog but am sceptical due to the wildness out of the other one. (And myself and my partner are very knowledgeable in the training that goes into a dog so its not anything to do with that).

I understand the bigger fee from reputable breeders is because of large fees incurred inthe breeding process, & I respect that... but I am looking for a family dog not a show dog with amazing bloodlines, but also a dog who isnt bred arseways I guess is where I'm stuck at.

Gerry is with Celtic Animal Lifeline and they are an excellent rescue, and really know their GSDs. Give them a call and have a chat, they will be honest with you about the dog and whether they think he would be the right one for your family.

What have you got to lose?:D

sotisme

What you buy is what you get. A puppy will be cheap for a reason. Are the cheap puppies i)vaccinated
i)microchipped
i)wormed & de-flead
i)parents health checked
i)been vet checked
i)registered
and have they been genuinely taken care of with their, and their parents best interests at heart? Most likely not.
Don't give up on the rescues, I can guarantee that what you're looking for will come up. Only recently as far as I can remeber did the DSPCA have a litter of german shepherds looking for homes.
Even if you come across a breeder that seems perfect still be cautious and ask lots of questions. If there is anything you're unsure of ask! If you feel uneasy or don't think the pups are being well cared for ect. walk away. A good breeder will want to know all about you and should ask you plenty of questions about your family,lifestyle,current pets, house ect.
People who buy cheap pups usually end up spending even thousands on vet bills so it all works out esp. with german shepherds, cavaliers, british bulldogs ect.
Don't know if you already have, but do contact the Irish kennel club (IKC) to see the list of reputable breeders. You might be put on a waiting list for a pup which is normal as good breeders will only breed dogs if they know there will be high demand for these pups and they will get safe genuine homes.
Good luck and keep us updated!

Shanao

sara025 wrote: »

See 'Gerry' on this page...
http://www.irishanimals.ie/gsdall_homes.html
He's beautiful and keep coming back to him, but I was unsure because of my previous experience with older pups...I certainly would love to rescue another dog but am sceptical due to the wildness out of the other one. (And myself and my partner are very knowledgeable in the training that goes into a dog so its not anything to do with that).

I understand the bigger fee from reputable breeders is because of large fees incurred inthe breeding process, & I respect that... but I am looking for a family dog not a show dog with amazing bloodlines, but also a dog who isnt bred arseways I guess is where I'm stuck at.

TBH, GSD dont really grow up until they're at least three onwards. They're a highly active breed that need plenty of mental and physical stimulation. They're the 3rd most intelligent breed too and need to have their active minds healthy appetite sated. Any GSD will be the same, so I would nearly go for it. You can always meet Gerry at least (and at least with an older dog you dont have the issues of housetraining etc) and see how you get on.
Even just looking for a pet dog, a wellbred dog will be 400euro easily. I was looking at GSDs not too long ago when we were discussing getting another dog and i couldn't find any wellbred pups for under five hundred, which to be honest, i had expected. A wellbred pup is well worth the money; an ill bred pup will end up costing you thousands more in vet bills. And you have to be so careful with the GSDs to make sure they're coming from a good line; some of them are almost dragging their backsides along the ground their backs are so sloped.

sara025

I have emailed CelticAnimalLifeline regarding Gerry, I'm not sure how old that ad is though, says he's one so I guess its not too old, its my daughter I'm thinking of really I guess.

Any ads I have looked at with pups for sale mention the sire and dams bloodline by name, is there any way of finding out what these names mean? Also when they say the pups are registered, I am aware with the Kennel Club, but what does this registration mean?

Thanks so much for all the response so far by the way!

sara025

....just quickly for example, this ad:
http://www.donedeal.co.uk/for-sale/dogs/2188227

If the owner owns the parents and the parents arent dragging their asses or having major vet problems then are these not good pups? Theres so many ads like this one where the owner owns both parents as family dogs...

Stheno

ISDW wrote: »

Gerry is with Celtic Animal Lifeline and they are an excellent rescue, and really know their GSDs. Give them a call and have a chat, they will be honest with you about the dog and whether they think he would be the right one for your family.

What have you got to lose?:D

Have to agree 100% with this post Celtic Animal Lifeline are fantastic and will not home a dog to you if they feel there is any conflict at all.

They take great care in their rehoming imo.

sara025

Stheno wrote: »

Have to agree 100% with this post Celtic Animal Lifeline are fantastic and will not home a dog to you if they feel there is any conflict at all.

They take great care in their rehoming imo.

Thats reassuring thanks ISDW and Stheno, I hope to hear back from them soon!

ISDW

sara025 wrote: »

....just quickly for example, this ad:
http://www.donedeal.co.uk/for-sale/dogs/2188227

If the owner owns the parents and the parents arent dragging their asses or having major vet problems then are these not good pups? Theres so many ads like this one where the owner owns both parents as family dogs...

All dogs that are IKC registered have to be microchipped, and anyone can register pups with the IKC once the parents are registered, unfortunately in my opinion, it means nothing. It doesn't even actually mean that the dog is a pedigree, as no checks are carried out by the IKC that the parents named on the papers actually are the papers. I'm not saying they should carry out checks, merely pointing that fact out.

That ad says the dogs are vet checked, again, that means nothing in my opinion, just that a vet has seen them.

If you are interested in one of those pups, then ask them what the hip scores were, they will be happy to tell you if they had the dogs hip scored, and when you go to look at the pup, see the paperwork. Just because a dog isn't dragging its arse in a photo doesn't mean it doesn't have hip dysplacia. Hip scoring is no guarantee that pups won't get it, but it helps.

Unfortunately, because an ad says they own both dogs as family pets, doesn't necessarily mean it is so. Not saying that is the case in this ad, but people lie to sell things.

sara025

We just want a GS who is going to be part of the family, a best friend, who can sleep happily in his bed on the landing, watch over us & go running with me every day!

I'll keep my eyes open and am less likely to splurge on a puppy now, so thanks so far to everyone for all the info.

Thanks ISDW, I am not going to see any of these pups, that ad was just a general ideal of the hundreds I have flicked through in the last few days to try and gain some knowledge on what happens with the breeding & trade of pups in Ireland. TBH I'm shocked at how many there are available...if no-one buys them they're still part of the populous!

DBB

sara025 wrote: »

....just quickly for example, this ad:
http://www.donedeal.co.uk/for-sale/dogs/2188227

If the owner owns the parents and the parents arent dragging their asses or having major vet problems then are these not good pups? Theres so many ads like this one where the owner owns both parents as family dogs...

Hi Sara,
My first observation about this ad is that you can't actually see the adult dogs standing in such a way that you can see their hips/hind leg stance clearly. I have noticed this on pretty much every ad on Donedeal for Sheps... At this stage, from personal experience, I have come to feel that almost every ad on *certain* websites is bending the truth in what they say about their pups.
I recently spoke with a man who bought a pup from the site you have referred to above for €250, and thought he had got a great deal altogether. The weekend after he got the pup, several completely preventable illnesses beset the pup so that this man spent another €250 in vets fees, in one weekend. So, having had the pup for 72 hours, he had spent €500 on his new pup. The illnesses in this case were caused by poor hygiene, poor husbandry, and just poor care... none of which suggests that the pups were "vet-checked", "socialised", "home-reared" etc etc.
The same man had had the option of a more expensive, but top-quality pup, for just under €600. The pup he has now will more than likely suffer from at least one of the many breed-specific illnesses and cost him a fortune, but the more expensive pup probably won't: at least, none of the pups bred by this breeder have ever run into big health problems.
The more expensive pup is not a fancy show-dog. It is a well-bred pet dog, bred for the pet market by a responsible breeder who is determined to breed healthy dogs, rear them well, and give owners a great service. She doesn't advertise on the site you've quoted, and wouldn't dream of it.
If you think this through, spending an extra couple of hundred quid now on a really nicely bred and reared pup, over the lifetime of the dog, is nothing. It might seem like a lot now, but an extra €200-300 over 12ish years? It's nothing!
As a Shep owner, I would strongly, strongly advise that you tread extremely carefully when selecting a breeder. We all know that Sheps have a strong tendency to have bad hips and backs. But in the past 10-20 years, there are really bad behavioural problems emerging in them. Serious nervousness and phobic behaviour, oversensitivity, and quite frankly, downright aggression.
So, I'd seriously urge you to go for reputable breeders you have access to (i.e. steer well, well clear of the internet ads), remembering to vet each breeder thoroughly yourself first, and if they're more expensive, so be it. It'll be well worth it. Make certain you meet at least the mother: and I mean really meet, not just look at her over a wall.
That said, a young adult rescue dog which has been well-assessed might be a better option if you have a baby on the way, otherwise you're going to end up with two young babies to rear, one with sharp teeth.

The Sweeper

sara025 wrote: »

I understand the bigger fee from reputable breeders is because of large fees incurred inthe breeding process, & I respect that... but I am looking for a family dog not a show dog with amazing bloodlines, but also a dog who isnt bred arseways I guess is where I'm stuck at.

In terms of price, see if there's a German Shepherd Club of Ireland or somesuch - some body that was set up for promotion of the breed. Give them a call and ask them for an average price.

In terms of not wanting a show dog with amazing bloodlines - honestly that sort of dog can set you back thousands, so a few hundred euro isn't an unreasonable price for a GSD pup from an ethical breeder.

Just because I'm nosey, are you going for flat back or roach?

Aru

Well where to start!
Firstly well done for making such a wise choice and going for a GSD :P

Depending on what you want the dog for, and bear in mind they are a very intelligent breed and do need to be kept busy, the first thing I would recommend is loads of research. If you have seen any dogs you like the look of try and find out their breeding.The local country shows that are on across the country are often a good place to see good quality dogs and to have a chance to quiz owners who may no of litters being bred in the future.

The most important thing imo is temperament, so make sure the dam (and sire if at the kennels) is outgoing and friendly. If a bitch guards her pups that is fine with me, but once away from them she should be happy to make friends.
Its quite likely they won't have the sire there, but ask to see pictures and ideally details of his owners to give you the opportunity to visit him and assess his temperament.

Now the important bits when it comes to health and justifying the costs of a good pup.
Check both parents are hip and elbow scored,or at least hip scored and the male is tested clear of haemophilia. With hip scores I personally look for a score of low teens or below, elbows 1 or 0. Ask to see the scored xrays or certs.
Anyone who tells you that the pup itself is clear and "health and hip tested" is wrong/bluffing and hasnt payed for the testing!pups cannot be scored until they are mature so its the parents and grandparents scores that count.

As far as picking a puppy, unless you are planning on working your dog I would avoid the one who appears to be boss of the litter, and similarly any pup who is timid and reluctant to come to you. Ideally the litter should all be equally friendly and happy for you to play with them.
Pups should be friendly, and of a generally even size. No pot bellies, clean eyes and ears obviously no sign of parasites. Breeders should ask you as many questions as you ask them, they should also provide you with a diet sheet and if the pups are ikc reg their registration documents.
The excuse they aren't back from the kc is usually not valid nowadays as it is one thing they do seem to be getting right most of the time.That is also an excuse that is often used in cases where the bitch is being over bred and so the pups cannot be registered.

My big flag for the difference between a backyard breeder and a reliable breeder would be the hip scoring and health certs.
If they have through the bother and cost of getting their dogs checked for these inheritable problems then the chances of you getting a healthy happy pup are much higher than if you just pick a pup whose parents where bred simply because the owner had a female dog with a uterus.

Good luck.

lrushe

OP, I love German Shephards as a breed, I just don't think you can get a better dog (my opinion of course!!!) Lost my last girl in 2006 at 13
However that said the breed has been all but ruined by people breeding 'family pets' together with no thought for confirmation, structure or temperament. Then people come along and buy these dogs and further fuel this destruction.
When a reputable breeder breeds, especially with a breed like GSDs you are looking at them producing anything from 6 - 10 pups in a litter. Out of a litter that size about 2 or 3 pups (if you are lucky) have the makings of a good show dog and the rest are sold as family pets. The difference between these pups and the pups of 2 'family pets' bred together is you have the reassurance that your pup is coming from lines free of genetic disease.
The v.minimum I would be looking for in a GS pups would be hip scored parents. If you buy a cheap dog you are running the risk of having to fork out €1500 - 2000 to repair bad hips in the future or worse still having to explain to your daughter why you are having her pet put down.
I've 3 dogs myself, the cheapest (and that was 10 years ago) was €750, money well spent imo as they haven't cost me a further penny (other than routine vet costs)

ohmfg

Quote:
Originally Posted by ISDW
Gerry is with Celtic Animal Lifeline and they are an excellent rescue, and really know their GSDs. Give them a call and have a chat, they will be honest with you about the dog and whether they think he would be the right one for your family.

What have you got to lose?

Have to agree 100% with this post Celtic Animal Lifeline are fantastic and will not home a dog to you if they feel there is any conflict at all.

They take great care in their rehoming imo.

Another CALL fan here.
We got 2 of our Sheps from Gill and can't praise her highly enough.

Good luck in your search.

trio

Hi OP, MADRA have 2 GSDs at the moment as well. "Nina", she's 18 months old & "Gordy" who's one.

http://www.madra.ie/en/gallery.html?func=viewcategory&catid=5

Another rescue I can't praise highly enough. They're very good at after-care - they don't just dump a dog on you and then trot off. We got our dog from them and got a lot of support afterwards which was brilliant as we'd never owned a dog before and were totally overwhelmed at first!

gregers85

I also own and absolutely love German Shepherds! I show my female and have won 5 reserve green stars this year so I am absolutely delighted with her!! (not that I wasn't before ) I also do obedience training and entered her in her first trial on st. patricks day and won 2nd place! You did the right thing by going to the all Ireland GSD association web http://www.allirelandgsd.com/
There is a good read on the FAQ page explaining about prices for pups! it also says in the same article "if you are paying €800 or more for a pup, you should definitely make sure the breeder is willing to provide you with a contract of sale, outlining their guarantees to you." GSDs are also very prone to Torsion, Hip and elbow Displaysia as well as some skin conditions and if paying 100euro you are most likely not going to be getting a pup whose parents have been tested for hipscores and elbows etc, also the cost of raising pups is expensive, an average vet charges (per pup!!) 30-60euro for the check up and 1st vaccine and an additional 13euro for a microchip plus 3.50euro per worm tablet! Add this up for a 4-5 pup litter is a lot of money! Plus most breeders would not own the stud dog with the average fee being 300-500euro plus travel expences. The all ireland GSD association is having an open all breed show on Saturday, 06 August 2011 at 10:30 at The Nenagh Show Grounds. Please come and meet and chat with owners and breeders, You will def get great advise and a good enjoyable family day out! I will be attending myself with my female entered!! Hope this helps