Pain in my hole with the Blade Runner et al

TheRoadRunner

I see South African runner Oscar Pistorius (a.k.a the blade runner) has recently run the olympic time for 400 metres. Now fair play to him and best of luck. However the amount of media coverage this and other side show stories such as the Caster Semenya story get, kind of bugs me a little. It would be interesting to compare the amount of column inches given to one of the stories above relative to one of Usain Bolts world records back in 2008. I wouldn't be surprised if they were nearly equal! Just my rant for the day.

robinph

I'm far more impressed with Natalie du Toit making the Olympic times in swimming. Whilst it's good and relatively news worthy of a parolympian like Pistorius to be achieving able bodied times, I'm still not convinced about the benefit* that he might be getting from the lack of the lower legs.

Why are they all South Africans though?



*Benefit in that the leg doesn't tire.

TheRoadRunner

robinph wrote: »

Why are they all South Africans though?

Yeah noticed that myself, just chance I guess

Clearlier

Here's an interesting take on it: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/david_epstein/11/19/oscar.pistorius/index.html

Also these guys will cover it once the TDF is over: http://www.sportsscientists.com/

Basically says that his blades are lighter and bouncier than legs so he can take more steps than people with legs and spend more time in contact with the ground. It makes some unlikely suggestions (gives him a 10s advantage) but is interesting to read and might go some way towards explaining why he was able to make such a big jump in his PB. Also, it tells you why he was able to win his appeal at CAS.

myflipflops

It's purely the nature of populist mass media and most people wanting to read about these types of stories.

Look at the coverage the Ryan Giggs got for cheating on his wife. If there's a 'human interest' element to it, the rag media will lap it up.

MrCreosote

In fairness- a guy with no legs qualifies for the Olympic 400m sprint? Pretty good story in my opinion.

Chartsengrafs

Have to agree with MrCreosote, this type of story is far more interesting to the 'average' person.

Bolt's performances in 2008 were phenomenal, but 'Fast man runs fast' won't grab people's attention in the same way. I think the same happens in all sports.

Sport101

Not taking the pis*, but the Olympics are in England, can he run if it rains?

Gringo78

It's very newsworthy....you have to go all the way back to the days of Paul McGrath, Tony Adams and George Best before you find a legless man hitting such highs in sport.

I'll get my coat.....

ecoli

Sport101 wrote: »

Not taking the pis*, but the Olympics are in England, can he run if it rains?

His "Cheetah" blades are custom made for running and have track spikes in them similar to wearing a normal pair of spikes. As far as I remember though he doesnt perform well in wet conditions and his times previously highlighted this fact (just going on memory unfortunately results sheets dont record weather:D).
I think for the general public it becomes a human interest story while for the athletics world it is more so the debate of whether he is hindered or aided in performance (a fact which is debated from arm chair fans to elite as is proven with the current arguement between Ste Colvert and David Oliver on twitter) so it becomes appealing on a range of levels

jonnyfingers

In my opinion he's not an athlete with no legs who has run the Olympic 400m time. He's an athlete with artificial/enhanced/bionic legs (whichever you want to use). Does this disadvantage him or help him? Nobody can be 100% sure as we can't compare his time to one he'd run with normal legs. If this disadvantage or unfair advantage can't be proven would it be fair to allow him to compete with other normal runners?

For arguments sake if a javelin thrower had a proper sci-fi bionic arm fitted which was stronger and faster than a human arm and he threw the Olympic distance, would this be allowed?

I think it's great that he can run so fast with artificial legs. But I don't think that should allow him to compete with other able-bodied athletes unfortunately.

shels4ever

jonnyfingers wrote: »

In my opinion he's not an athlete with no legs who has run the Olympic 400m time. He's an athlete with artificial/enhanced/bionic legs (whichever you want to use). Does this disadvantage him or help him? Nobody can be 100% sure as we can't compare his time to one he'd run with normal legs. If this disadvantage or unfair advantage can't be proven would it be fair to allow him to compete with other normal runners?

For arguments sake if a javelin thrower had a proper sci-fi bionic arm fitted which was stronger and faster than a human arm and he threw the Olympic distance, would this be allowed?

I think it's great that he can run so fast with artificial legs. But I don't think that should allow him to compete with other able-bodied athletes unfortunately.

Well it does free everyone else to have their legs removed and for them to use blades if they like

Brianderunner

shels4ever wrote: »

Well it does free everyone else to have their legs removed and for them to use blades if they like

Imagine, no more calf/foot injuries? Now where's that hacksaw

shels4ever

Brianderunner wrote: »

Imagine, no more calf/foot injuries? No where's that hacksaw

robinph

Wouldn't be a very good option for cross country though.

dna_leri

shels4ever wrote: »

Well it does free everyone else to have their legs removed and for them to use blades if they like

If he won a medal in the olympics, I bet there would be people lining up to volunteer e.g. if you were a half-decent sprinter from a poor African country and you had someone willing to sponsor the operation. The expression "I would give my right leg (and my left one) for an olympic medal" might be become literal. The future is not that far away!

BeepBeep67

Where's that if you loose 4kg you'll run 5mins faster for the Marathon thread?

VinLieger

Plain and simple the guy is disabled, fair play that hes able to achieve those times but thats what the paralympics are for. He should not be allowed compete against able bodied atheletes as they are not competeing on the same levels.
Yes the blades have some different disadvantages and adavantages that he has to deal with but thats the key word here "DIFFERENT", he is not the same as the other athletes.

gerard65

VinLieger wrote: »

Plain and simple the guy is disabled, fair play that hes able to achieve those times but thats what the paralympics are for. He should not be allowed compete against able bodied atheletes as they are not competeing on the same levels.
Yes the blades have some different disadvantages and adavantages that he has to deal with but thats the key word here "DIFFERENT", he is not the same as the other athletes.

Jason Smyth is blind.

Timmaay

shels4ever wrote: »

Well it does free everyone else to have their legs removed and for them to use blades if they like

After the whole Chinese model having their legs broken, plates and screws put in, so as they could artificially become taller, the above might actually be plausible to some nutjobs who would be willing to go to all lengths to get a world record!

Clearlier

gerard65 wrote: »

Jason Smyth is blind.

I don't think that anyone would or could argue that that provides him with an advantage. If he was completely blind (he's visually impaired to a degree where he is registered blind but can actually see a little bit), had some kind of bionic eyes and was competing in something like shooting there might be a question mark although less than in the case of Pistorius IMO.

gerard65

Clearlier wrote: »

I don't think that anyone would or could argue that that provides him with an advantage. If he was completely blind (he's visually impaired to a degree where he is registered blind but can actually see a little bit), had some kind of bionic eyes and was competing in something like shooting there might be a question mark although less than in the case of Pistorius IMO.

My post was in direct response to VinLieger.

VinLieger

gerard65 wrote: »

Jason Smyth is blind.

Fair enough and yes that is a different disadvantage that he has to deal with but it is not a different advantage, he is still operating using the same physical body parts that are needed to compete.
Unless he had bionic eyes i see no problem with him competing in the olympics

ecoli

I think the point being made is this sport is inclusive so to discriminate someone from competition without comprehensive findings regarding the advantages and disadvantages and how they effect the athletes overall performance is a little unfair.

Yes the athlete does have advantage as result of his custom made blades in terms of lactate generating within the body but he also has disadvantage in terms acceleration from the start but question is whether they balance each other out and according to the IAAFs findings he does not have advantage (at this event). I think if he was looking to benefit from the prostetics he would move up in distance but fact that he doesnt proves he is not looking for an advantage

dna_leri

ecoli wrote: »

I think the point being made is this sport is inclusive so to discriminate someone from competition without comprehensive findings regarding the advantages and disadvantages and how they effect the athletes overall performance is a little unfair.

Yes the athlete does have advantage as result of his custom made blades in terms of lactate generating within the body but he also has disadvantage in terms acceleration from the start but question is whether they balance each other out and according to the IAAFs findings he does not have advantage (at this event). I think if he was looking to benefit from the prostetics he would move up in distance but fact that he doesnt proves he is not looking for an advantage

The IAAF findings are that he DOES have an advantage. That is why they amended their competition rules in 2007 to ban the use of "any technical device that incorporates springs, wheels or any other element that provides a user with an advantage over another athlete not using such a device".

His advantage is in more than a reduction in lactate and the IAAF did comission studies on the advantages of the blades finding that Pistorius's limbs used 25% less energy than runners with normal legs to run at the same speed.

It is CAS (Court of Arbitration for Sport) that effectively reversed the decision judging that the IAAF had not provided sufficient evidence to prove that Pistorius's prostheses give him an advantage over able-bodied athletes.

The fact that he has not moved up to 800m proves nothing except perhaps that he might not be able for the rough and tumble of a middle distance event.

robinph

dna_leri wrote: »

The fact that he has not moved up to 800m proves nothing except perhaps that he might not be able for the rough and tumble of a middle distance event.

Not sure that I've seen Pistouris run, but the British guy that does marathons seems to need a fairly wide berth as his blades swing out quite a bit to the side in his stride.

Clearlier

Richard Whitehead is the name of the British guy. I've had the pleasure of running with him once and can confirm that you definitely need to give him a wide berth . He warns you about it too. The key difference between him and Oscar is that his amputations are above the knee whereas Oscar's are below. This means that Oscar's stride is pretty similar to your average runner with the exception that he has blades instead of a lower leg. Richard on the other hand runs from his hips which means that he swings his legs around for every stride which is why you have to give him such a wide berth.

Here's a video of Richard and of Oscar.

I posted links earlier which I think do a good job of explaining why he has an advantage. I wonder if there will remain a question over his advantage when/if he breaks the world record or goes under 40 seconds? I wonder too if he would do that or if he would back off a little.....

robinph

I had the sound turned off on that Pistouris video so as not to look like I'm not working, but he's sponsored by a tire manufacturer?!?!?!

gerard65

robinph wrote: »

I had the sound turned off on that Pistouris video so as not to look like I'm not working, but he's sponsored by a tire manufacturer?!?!?!

Fooling yourself. 'Robin your working very hard today' 'Thanks Robin, I am':D

robinph

Richard Whitehead was running in the Diamond League meeting at the weekend. Him being the first double leg amputee to run a sub 3hr marathon surely puts him at the top of the field of marathon runners...now should it be possible for the equivalent of a Haile or Paula to then be competing in a 200m race competitively?

Not saying he shouldn't have been there or anything but there must be something "different" in the use of blades that allows someone to be near the top of the field at both ends of the running distance spectrum. Obviously he is different from Pistouris, different blades, different amputations, different event, was more of an exhibition race, was actually two different categories racing at the same time, not as many people take part in para events so the field is smaller...but still.