Is Halo doomed?

Healium

I was going to post this in the Halo forum, but that seems to be a bit dead, and obviously it'd be very biased opinions.

With every recent Halo news story, I see lots of comments bashing Halo, lot's of Halo mega fans claiming that they're not buying Halo:CE Anniversary for a few months, and the franchise seems to be a laughing stock at this stage.

Are the likes of Halo:CE Anniversary going to tank? Not in the traditional sense, obviously lots of people will buy it, but are sales going to be down?

Everyone used to love Halo!

Why do you like/dislike/HAET Halo?

[If anyone starts another de-railing argument about whether or not Halo:CE was revolutionary, I will post Halo porn until the thread has to get locked]

Twilightning

Halo 2 was my favourite Halo game for campaign (haters gonna hate) and of course multiplayer, I think it'd be a great idea of Bungie sold the multiplayer portion of Halo 2 with all of the maps for 1200MS points because I'd sure as hell play it.

Halo 1 was great, Halo 3 was a big pile of meh, and Halo Reach was a step in the right direction, but after all of this talk about Reach being Bungie's 'swan song' and the final game in the story arc only to have 'anniversary edition' of a previous game and another trilogy announced, it's pretty much beyond a joke and I have no qualms with the series being a laughing stock at this stage. I know 343 Industries are taking over and all but even so I have little or no interest anymore in the series.

Healium

Hrm, title is a bit dramatic, "Has Halo lost it's way?" would be more appropriate. Halo can't ever really be doomed, some people will always buy it

Twilightning wrote: »

Halo 2 was my favourite Halo game for campaign (haters gonna hate) and of course multiplayer, I think it'd be a great idea of Bungie sold the multiplayer portion of Halo 2 with all of the maps for 1200MS points because I'd sure as hell play it.

Halo 1 was great, Halo 3 was a big pile of meh, and Halo Reach was a step in the right direction, but after all of this talk about Reach being Bungie's 'swan song' and the final game in the story arc only to have 'anniversary edition' of a previous game and another trilogy announced, it's pretty much beyond a joke and I have no qualms with the series being a laughing stock at this stage. I know 343 Industries are taking over and all but even so I have little or no interest anymore in the series.

Mine too. If anyone else would like to jump in and tell me why everyone thinks Halo 2 was the worst, that'd be great. I'm actually playing through Halo 2 right now.

To be honest, I hated the Reach campaign. No idea why they decided to mess with canon storylines. The characters were also bland, and it just ended up like an episode of Harper's Island. I mean, COME ON,

Kat

gets killed in one shot?

"Herpdy derp, we need to kill everyone, let's pretend she has no shields. Lulz. - Bungie"

I don't know if anyone ever claimed that Reach was the final game in the story arc, to be honest. (Although, the second trilogy will be a new story...)

I'm also ridiculously excited about Anniversary. Some people think it's a cash-in, but I don't care. I kind of started with Halo 3, and then worked my way back, so I can't wait to play it in HD. Wish they remastered all the MP maps, though.

BopNiblets

I enjoyed the first Halo on PC, thought Halo 2 was kinda the same thing only horribly ported, then that was the end of Halo on PC, so f*ck em!

Retr0gamer

Well we'll see what 343 does with Halo first. Halo Anniversary looks like a cheap direct port which for me is very disappointing so I probably won't go near it. Halo is still one of the biggest franchises around despite being knocked off it's pedestal by CoD so it's still a big franchise. Don't think it's fair to write it off until the new team are proven.

Chairman Meow

I was a bit underwhelmed by reach's campaign too. I mean it was good but there were so many moments that were just like...the ****? The characters were all uniformly awful. No personality, no charm, nothing. For what shouldve been an epic storyline (the entire destruction of reach, and the discovery of the covenant on said planet) it was all very...ho hum. Even when you come across the covenant at first i had to lol at Jorges reaction "contacts? Its the damn covenant". He delivered that line more like someone whos found theyve trodden in dog**** rather than someone whos jsut found an all consuming maurading gang of interstellar jihadists on your supposedly safest planet.

And so many missed opportunities. Jorge drops you out of a covenant cruiser and lets you fall through space to land on reach, what happens? An awesome setpiece where you fall through the void of space, blast through the atmosphere and land on solid ground? Eh no, fade to black, wake up on reach :rolleyes:

And dont get me started on the MP. I loved it at first, but it was 100% ruined for me thanks to quitters in every single game.

Honestly, my experience with reach has quite soured me on the series. And i was a HUGE halo fan. Im not excited at all about CE Remake (whoppdy ****, a 10 year old game i already played to death), and Halo 4 needs to be something very special indeed, but you know itll just be Reach pt.2

Jazzy

I recently read Moby Dick and I think the brotherhood shown in the AI in Halo compares brilliantly to guilty spark 343's pursuit of galactic genocide as his white whale. I also read Dune recently and the depth of its storyline and the atmosphere it radiates really was great inspiration for the key plot elements in the game and how they were played out. in this regard, the plot was written and designed in a cromulant way.. which is to say that if you dont understand what that means then you are just stupid, which makes me feel embiggened

johnny_ultimate

(yeah, this thread is totally going to derail eventually :P)

I'll be honest I quite enjoyed Reach. Like Halo 3, I finally thought there was enough variety and well delivered setpieces to keep me engaged from beginning to end. Don't get me wrong, I'm still not a 'fan' of the franchise, but I personally feel it's only in Reach and 3 that I finally started to recognise some of the non-multiplayer appeal of the series. There was a moment in Halo 3 where the score burst to life while I battled two gigantic scarabs from the sky. It was one of the few times in the series where I thought the repetitive corridors, the recycling of enemies and the other much-argued 'flaws/strengths' (delete as appropriate) led to a worthwhile payoff.

deathrider

Seen the title and thought to myself- Is there a pun about Doom in there, lol.

I'm not a Halo fan, and never was, but I haven't come here to bitch about it. Instead, I'm here to say that I'm all for this anniversary idea (though it sure doesn't seem like 10 years to me). I'm not going to buy it or play it myself, because as I said I'm not a fan. The reason I'm all behind the idea is this-
A few years ago there was an anniversary edition of Tomb Raider released. I've been a Lara fan since her first game back in '96, so I was hyped to play this new take on her original adventure. When it was released and I got to play it, I was blown away. It had blended what I loved about the original TR game marvelously with the way her newer games are played. There were so many parts where I went "No way! That's <insert favourite parts here> from the original, yet enough new stuff and twists in the story to keep me interested without just feeling like I was playing the first one again.

So, if Halo fans get the chance to experiece something similar with their new game, then more power to them. And for their sake, I hope they have as much fun with it as I did with Tomb Raider Anniversary.

Retr0gamer

deathrider wrote: »

So, if Halo fans get the chance to experiece something similar with their new game, then more power to them. And for their sake, I hope they have as much fun with it as I did with Tomb Raider Anniversary.

Tomb Raider Anniversary was indeed fantastic but Halo Anniversary is a port with tarted up graphics rather than the complete reimagining that Anniversary was. I think it had the potential to be far better if they went the same route as with TR Anniversary.

Spunge

After CoD4 came out, i'd say a lot of 360 players realised that the Halo series isn't actually all that good.

deathrider

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Tomb Raider Anniversary was indeed fantastic but Halo Anniversary is a port with tarted up graphics rather than the complete reimagining that Anniversary was. I think it had the potential to be far better if they went the same route as with TR Anniversary.

Oh... Oh dear. That's not what I was expecting at all. I'd took it for granted that they'd taken a page from Lara's book on this one. This is kinda disppointing news for those involved.

super_furry

Can't wait for it. ODST and Reach have firmly washed away the memories of Halo 3.

ODST was a brave sidestory experimental departure, with some great characters and while the story telling was slightly obtuse, the game remained thoroughly enjoyable.

Reach was a great game. Some great story telling, believable characters and some of the best, balls-out action sequences seen in any FPS this generation. The fact that it's no longer flavour of the month is even better because all the gobby arsehole kiddies are off screaming their racial slurs and talking about how stoned they are in Black Ops. Halo Reach online is the closest that any console game has come to capturing the community and mod-community feeling of PC gaming.

Healium

deathrider wrote: »

Seen the title and thought to myself- Is there a pun about Doom in there, lol.

I'm not a Halo fan, and never was, but I haven't come here to bitch about it. Instead, I'm here to say that I'm all for this anniversary idea (though it sure doesn't seem like 10 years to me). I'm not going to buy it or play it myself, because as I said I'm not a fan. The reason I'm all behind the idea is this-
A few years ago there was an anniversary edition of Tomb Raider released. I've been a Lara fan since her first game back in '96, so I was hyped to play this new take on her original adventure. When it was released and I got to play it, I was blown away. It had blended what I loved about the original TR game marvelously with the way her newer games are played. There were so many parts where I went "No way! That's <insert favourite parts here> from the original, yet enough new stuff and twists in the story to keep me interested without just feeling like I was playing the first one again.

So, if Halo fans get the chance to experiece something similar with their new game, then more power to them. And for their sake, I hope they have as much fun with it as I did with Tomb Raider Anniversary.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Tomb Raider Anniversary was indeed fantastic but Halo Anniversary is a port with tarted up graphics rather than the complete reimagining that Anniversary was. I think it had the potential to be far better if they went the same route as with TR Anniversary.

Let's be honest, you're not a Halo fan.

Any true Halo fans would go crazy if 343 messed with the original game. It would probably be a different story if Bungie were behind this, and people would be a bit more open to them fixing some of the flaws of the original. While there are a number of ex-Bungie employees at 343, this is still going to be their first game, and they're right not to mess with any of the winning formula of the original, because they need to earn the trust of the fans first. If they messed with Halo: CE, and the fans reacted negatively, lots of people just wouldn't bother with the next trilogy. Saber Interactive aren't exactly world-renowned, either. They have to play this very carefully.

This isn't just a port with "tarted up graphics", and frankly, it shows how much you know about the game. The campaign portion of the game will be running two game engines on top of each other. With a press of the Back button, you can switch between new HD graphics, and the original, so you can compare how the game looked then and now. 343 are also adding Terminals to the campaign, which will offer more backstory, and apparently hint at the direction of Halo 4. From yesterday, we know that there'll be at least one new skull, alongside lots of easter eggs. 343 are also re-recording the entire original score.

Along with this, there will be a full 2 player co-op campaign over Xbox LIVE (No idea who player 2 will be). The game will also ship with 7 remastered maps from the first 3 games, and one will be a Firefight map. So, you're now up to 3 game engines running on one disc. The multiplayer will use the Halo: Reach engine, and 343 are going to be releasing a patch for Reach to make some changes for Anniversary (Again, no information released yet)

The game will play exactly like the original. 343 Industries are including the same weapons, and are using the exact same weapon data from Halo: CE (i.e. godly pistol).

This isn't some "tarted up" port. It's taking everything that made Halo: CE great, making it look next-gen, adding a bunch of new features, competitive multiplayer, Firefight, 3 game engines, and introducing the game to a whole new generation, without messing about with the formula. So yes, the Library will still be a grind, but now you have a friend to play it with you!

Spunge wrote: »

After CoD4 came out, i'd say a lot of 360 players realised that the Halo series isn't actually all that good.

I see the words, but they're not making sense...

Retr0gamer

Healium wrote: »

Let's be honest, you're not a Halo fan.

Any true Halo fans would go crazy if 343 messed with the original game. It would probably be a different story if Bungie were behind this, and people would be a bit more open to them fixing some of the flaws of the original. While there are a number of ex-Bungie employees at 343, this is still going to be their first game, and they're right not to mess with any of the winning formula of the original, because they need to earn the trust of the fans first. If they messed with Halo: CE, and the fans reacted negatively, lots of people just wouldn't bother with the next trilogy. Saber Interactive aren't exactly world-renowned, either. They have to play this very carefully.

This isn't just a port with "tarted up graphics", and frankly, it shows how much you know about the game. The campaign portion of the game will be running two game engines on top of each other. With a press of the Back button, you can switch between new HD graphics, and the original, so you can compare how the game looked then and now. 343 are also adding Terminals to the campaign, which will offer more backstory, and apparently hint at the direction of Halo 4. From yesterday, we know that there'll be at least one new skull, alongside lots of easter eggs. 343 are also re-recording the entire original score.

Along with this, there will be a full 2 player co-op campaign over Xbox LIVE (No idea who player 2 will be). The game will also ship with 7 remastered maps from the first 3 games, and one will be a Firefight map. So, you're now up to 3 game engines running on one disc. The multiplayer will use the Halo: Reach engine, and 343 are going to be releasing a patch for Reach to make some changes for Anniversary (Again, no information released yet)

The game will play exactly like the original. 343 Industries are including the same weapons, and are using the exact same weapon data from Halo: CE (i.e. godly pistol).

This isn't some "tarted up" port. It's taking everything that made Halo: CE great, making it look next-gen, adding a bunch of new features, competitive multiplayer, Firefight, 3 game engines, and introducing the game to a whole new generation, without messing about with the formula. So yes, the Library will still be a grind, but now you have a friend to play it with you!

What you have just described sounds like the definition of a tarted up port to me, it's basically the same treatment R-type Dimensions got except with added terminals and I'd not call r-type dimensions anything but a tarted up port. Halo CE is far from a perfect game and I feel doing a port of it warts and all is a huged missed oppurtunity of making very good game into a great game. It's not even like they need any genius to point out parts that need improving. For me all they needed to do was make some of the level design that was obviously rushed a bit more interesting and I'd buy it. The way it is I can just fire up the original which I have in the other room and get the same experience. Halo CE isn't some timeless classic like say a link to the past, there's big room for improvement. I'm just disappointed that an oppurtunity has been missed to make a really good game and something I'd fell would have been worth my time playing.

johnny_ultimate

Healium wrote: »

Any true Halo fans would go crazy if 343 messed with the original game.

But therein lies the problem with fans - they're often best taken with a pinch of salt. It's the same with any medium - Trekkies anybody? When one becomes too attached to a franchise, logic can often take a vacation. For an extreme example, take the Dragon Quest fans who flooded Japanese Amazon with one star reviews for DQIX. The reason? Because one of the characters was a pixie. Not a word about the other numerous strengths and fan service of the rest of the game...

And yet the DQ fans were also the ones whose negative reaction to more outrageous changes - introducing a real-time combat system, for example - caused change for the better. So fans should be listened to on one hand, but can also act very illogically indeed.

There's no reason why the new developers couldn't subtly improve upon elements of the original that may have been lacking (oh, we're steering towards that discussion again, aren't we :P). The Library, once again, we shall highlight - could that not be altered to make a more engaging take on the level's ideas (although I don't think the Flood will ever be engaging )? Or how about slightly altering the maps to embrace the more considered weapons balance or - blasphemy of blasphemies! - even dual-wielding, elements that were introduced to great acclaim in later entries? It seems with the resources being spewed into this, such small but pleasant changes could only be embraced. That said, co-op (even if it's a strange feature if they don't alter the game to include it) and online multiplayer are certainly welcome additions, although I think you're seriously overselling the 'two engines' - hell, Katamari Forever had numerous graphical filters!

Gus van Sant once remade Psycho frame by frame in colour, to some much deserved critical ire. IMO it raises question of what we should expect from remakes in games. When untinkered with, are they redundant? I picked up Beyond Good and Evil HD (mainly to support a potential sequel, but the price was right too) but questioned why the camera was still crap, seemed like a waste. Yet I'll also probably pick up the largely unchanged Shadow of the Colossus HD because it fixes the only major flaw of the game - framerate. But when 343 are making such an effort in some respects with the remake, it just seems a bit strange not to go the full hog with it. Halo: CE is still more than playable, mixing it up a little bit wouldn't change it, but might provide fans with a bit more value for money, especially when they're being charged full price again for a spruced up port. I'd level the same accusations at Ocarina of Time 3D, just for balance, and Anniversary at least does have new features unlike OoT - just don't think either justify a forty-fifty euro price tag. And for me - as someone who'd buy the game if they sorted out some of the problems (again, the misconception that we all hate Halo is entirely incorrect) - that's at least one lost sale for 343.

deathrider

Healium wrote: »

Let's be honest, you're not a Halo fan.

Hmmm, I though I summed that up fairly well with the line "I'm not a Halo fan, and never was" and then lightening the mood by saying "but I haven't come here to bitch about it."
I genuinely thought that Halo was going down the Lara road and building the first game from the ground up into something completely new. If it's not, that's fine. Doesn't bother me either way. I was just throwing down my two cents (a positive two cents at that) wishing this game the best, as I had a great experience playing the anniversary edition of one of my favourites, and hoped that others would have the same fun with their's. Quite frankly, I've lost interest in the discussion now, so I'll take my leave and spread a little good will elsewhere instead.

PS. I didn't quote the rest of your post because it had already been quoted.

Healium

deathrider wrote: »

Hmmm, I though I summed that up fairly well with the line "I'm not a Halo fan, and never was" and then lightening the mood by saying "but I haven't come here to bitch about it."
I genuinely thought that Halo was going down the Lara road and building the first game from the ground up into something completely new. If it's not, that's fine. Doesn't bother me either way. I was just throwing down my two cents (a positive two cents at that) wishing this game the best, as I had a great experience playing the anniversary edition of one of my favourites, and hoped that others would have the same fun with their's. Quite frankly, I've lost interest in the discussion now, so I'll take my leave and spread a little good will elsewhere instead.

PS. I didn't quote the rest of your post because it had already been quoted.

Sorry, that particular line was directed at Retrogamer, but I quoted both as the latter part of your post was similar to his

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

There's no reason why the new developers couldn't subtly improve upon elements of the original that may have been lacking.

No problem with that, in fact I'd be surprised if they didn't introduce dual-wielding, charged plasma pistols disable vehicles etc. Stuff we take for granted with the newer games.

My problem is with changing level designs. We all know that there's some bad level design in Halo. But it's part of Halo now! Everyone knows about the awful Library level. Hell, it's a joke at this stage. But I want to play it, warts n' all.

I wouldn't be surprised if the game retailed for €35. It's only $40. Crappy exchange rate.

Also, we know very little about the game. I'm sure they have surprises to reveal. HaloFest should have some juicy details. Theatre would be great!

CHOO CHOOOOOOOOOOO....

Steering this somewhat away from Anniversary, since that has a thread of it's own...

I finished Halo: CE, 2 and 3 in the past 2 days, and I have to say, I enjoyed every campaign ten times more this time around. I think it's mainly because I finally have concrete knowledge of the universe. I started with Halo 3, then Wars, ODST, Combat Evolved, Reach, and finished with 2, so my understanding of the story was totally f'ed up. But I've been reading the novels recently, and understood everything this time around. You'd be shocked at how much I missed. High Charity was unknown to me until yesterday :pac:

Aside from that, I found that the first 2 games are full of attitude that got lost after Halo 3. Cortana and Johnson can be hilarious in Halo: CE + 2.

The Library wasn't nearly as bad as I remembered it.

I only got lost and accidentally backtracked twice during Halo 1 + 2

Halo 2 still looks great. Runs in 720p, I think. That vista of the Forerunner Dreadnought when you're on High Charity? WOW. Same for the vistas in Halo 3.

Halo 3 wasn't as bad as I remember. Before today, I remembered it as a bland, forgettable campaign. I actually loved it, though. Still hate the Flood and just did a speedrun through their levels, but the rest was great. I actually found myself caring when people died/lost loved ones this time. (Again, probably because I've read their backstory in the novels)


My biggest worry about Halo 4 is... will it be the same without Grunts, 343 Guilty Spark, Johnson, and with a possibly rampant Cortana? Cortana was funny and likeable in the first 2 games, and... I wanted to mute her in Halo 3.

All the iconic, hilarious characters will be gone.

Obviously we know feck-all about the next trilogy, but it seems to be focused on the Forerunners. The Chief and Cortana are floating towards, what looks like, a Forerunner Shield World. Unless there's a new alien race in there...

What if it's just Chief and Cortana for the whole game, and a bunch of new aliens? Really interested to see where they take the story

Overheal

Halo has become another franchise similar to star wars. Just through gaming, not film. It's a neat little universe. Whether the gaming is dead or not is hard to say though. Did they ever release that Halo RTS?

Trevor451

Overheal wrote: »

Halo has become another franchise similar to star wars. Just through gaming, not film. It's a neat little universe. Whether the gaming is dead or not is hard to say though. Did they ever release that Halo RTS?

Yes.... and it sucked badly because of the controls. RTS on consoles just don't work.

Jazzy

Healium wrote: »

All the iconic, hilarious characters will be gone.

lol ?

Kiith

Healium wrote: »

343 are also re-recording the entire original score.

This and co-op are about the only things that interest me about the remake. The music in Halo has been brilliant over the years.

CORaven

Trevor451 wrote: »

Yes.... and it sucked badly because of the controls. RTS on consoles just don't work.

I disagree. The control system for Halo Wars is decent. It was also a good game. Started playing it there two weeks ago and I am really enjoying it.
C&C3:KW on the 360 also had a decent control system.

Healium

Overheal wrote: »

Halo has become another franchise similar to star wars. Just through gaming, not film. It's a neat little universe. Whether the gaming is dead or not is hard to say though. Did they ever release that Halo RTS?

Yep, Halo Wars. A very simple RTS, but fun to play online, and there were still almost 10,000 people online this evening when I hopped on (think it's 2/3 years old).

As mentioned, it's not a great RTS, but it's a good Halo game. It takes place on Harvest, the first planet the Covenant attacked. All new characters, some more Forerunner lore, and easily the best cutscenes of any Halo game (they look fantastic!)

Jazzy wrote: »

lol ?

Thanks for that contribution

Jazzy

oh so you actually think they were iconic hilarious characters. i thought you were being ironic.

anyway, still lol

Kiith

Well, Master Chief has become a kind of iconic character in gaming, whether deserved or not. Hilarious though?

Healium

The Chief and Cortana are the only characters we know will be in the next trilogy. And, after Halo 3, Cortana could be rampant, and annoying as f**k. Or, 343 could change her character like they changed her and the Chief's image.

When I was playing Halo 1 and 2 this week, Cortana was actually a semi-likeable character. She was spunky and sarcastic.

The Grunts? Came up with some hilarious dialogue during the first 3 games, and I couldn't help but laugh everytime I got killed by an Elite and he let out a demonic taunting laugh as my corpse fell to the ground.

343 Guilty Spark? Another iconic character, who won't be in the next trilogy. That's not to say that there won't be another Monitor, though.

Sgt. Johnson? "Get up, SO I CAN KILL YOU AGAIN", "I would have been your daddy but the dog beat me over the fence!", "For a brick, he flew pretty good.", "Dear Humanity... We regret being alien b*****ds. We regret coming to Earth. And we most definitely regret that the Corps just blew up our raggedy-ass fleet!"

etc. etc.

Retr0gamer

Johnson seems like he walked off a badly written parody of Aliens.

Master Chief is really the only iconic character from the series, as much as I hate the fact that he is considering the art direction is an appalling personification of generic. Still if I showed him to my mother she'd think he just looks stupid where as she would recognise Sonic and Mario.

If anyone is going to tell me anything from Halo 2 onwards is well written they can stop right there and even Halo wasn't anything special but was well paced.

I kind of liked sparkies humming though.

hooradiation

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Johnson seems like he walked off a badly written parody of Aliens.

Given that Sergeant Johnson and Sergeant Apone are major examples of the same clichédtrope this isn't in the least bit surprising.

Except for that "badly written parody" bit, that's just nonsense.

Retr0gamer

hooradiation wrote: »

Except for that "badly written parody" bit, that's just nonsense.

You're right. I should have said 'near joycean in its eloquence'.

Healium

I should clarify - I meant iconic characters within the Halo universe, not iconic in terms of gaming as a whole. What I meant was, will it be nearly as enjoyable without all these great characters, vehicles etc.