motor insurance questions

sydthebeat

I hope this is the right place for the queries, if not, sorry mods, and could you move it to the proper location.

The short long story is i was involved in accident 4 weeks ago. i was driving a ****ty 99 punto and on wet road i slid into the side of a rigid truck. it was within town limits and i was doing 50k, so not a huge tip, but enough to write off my car as a class b incident (ie it would cost more to repair than the car is worth). The damage to the truck was, on first inspection, a buckled diesel tank.

My insurance is up for renewable in 4 weeks, and i got a quote today from my current insurers. Im shocked as it works out about 5 times when my premium was last year (from 330 to 1700!!!!). My new car is a '01 1.4 polo.... Old car '99 1.2 punto.

So im pricing around on t'internet and ive some questions that im not sure of the answers to.... so id appreciate any help that can be given.

1. Can i change insurers if the incident hasnt been settled?

2. how do i find the value of the claim?

3. as my wife is a named driver on both this and our family car, does that mean her no claims bonus is gone as well? it makes a huge difference to the premium if i can become the named driver.

Just on a more basic question, do insurance companies actually ever lose?? it appears in the motor trade that if you make a claim, they will reclaim that value quite quickly through increased premiums..... i completely understand the need for medical costs to be covered, but at small accident levels, is it nearly cheaper to try to deal ex insurance?

Henry Ford III

You won't be able change insurers with a claim open.

Claim value isn't finalised while the case is still open (I'd guess).

If you are the insured and she's a named driver, your bonus is at risk. She won't have one. Another insurer might give her cover and credit for notional ncb, but your crash and ongoing claim would still be an issue if you wanted to be a named driver on her policy.

The only option (doesn't apply to you unfortunately) is to protect your ncb.

sydthebeat

thanks henry...

sounds like im screwed then?

surely if my policy is a year in duration, the insurer takes the risk during that year. Why would it not be possible to change insurers when the duration of that policy is over? Its not like the claim is being passed on....
if i cant change insurers am i expected to pay their grossly inflated premium?? that will not be happening. I just got some more quotes online showing me with 0 NCB and a claims value of €4000 and theyre still 1000 less that my current quote!!

on the NCB, yeah i havent got it covered.... stupid me, didnt actually realise it was an option until after this incident when everyone was asking why i didnt have it covered.

Our man in Havana

With a claim situation you are basically handcuffed to your current insurer for 3 to 5 years. Even with a protected NCB you are still tied as other insurance companies will not recognise a protected NCB from another company. Also the fact you had a claim means they won't touch you for 3 to 5 years.

sydthebeat

Our man in Havana wrote: »

With a claim situation you are basically handcuffed to your current insurer for 3 to 5 years. Even with a protected NCB you are still tied as other insurance companies will not recognise a protected NCB from another company. Also the fact you had a claim means they won't touch you for 3 to 5 years.

So are you saying that the insurance company have carte blanche to charge what they like as a premium after a claim?
How can they be in compliance with competition law?

MugMugs

Our man in Havana wrote: »

With a claim situation you are basically handcuffed to your current insurer for 3 to 5 years. Even with a protected NCB you are still tied as other insurance companies will not recognise a protected NCB from another company. Also the fact you had a claim means they won't touch you for 3 to 5 years.

That's not actually true. The other Insurer is legally obliged to accept the "protected" NCB when given it. One can protect their NCB under a benefit policy and they are entitled to receive the appropriate discount from their next insurer.

The issue at hand is the next insurer can load for the claim made and the associated risk.

sydthebeat wrote: »

So are you saying that the insurance company have carte blanche to charge what they like as a premium after a claim?
How can they be in compliance with competition law?

No.... It HAS to be justified.

sydthebeat wrote: »

1. Can i change insurers if the incident hasnt been settled?

No, The risk is undisclosed and until such time and the claim finalizes and the quantum of the claim (amount paid) is confirmed no insurance company can accurately assess what risk you pose to them. In turn, you will not be offered inception elsewhere.

sydthebeat wrote: »

2. how do i find the value of the claim?

By law the Insurer MUST tell you when the claim is settled and for how much. They do NOT have to give you a breakdown of the settlement but must give you the amount that it settled for. You must get this within 10 days of the claim Finalizing.

sydthebeat wrote: »

3. as my wife is a named driver on both this and our family car, does that mean her no claims bonus is gone as well? it makes a huge difference to the premium if i can become the named driver.

IF your wife was not driving them the claim will not impact her own policy.

IF she was driving then whats called "Dual Indemnity" would kick into place and her Insurance would cover the claim for 50% to the truck and yours 50% also affecting both policies.

sydthebeat wrote: »

Just on a more basic question, do insurance companies actually ever lose?? it appears in the motor trade that if you make a claim, they will reclaim that value quite quickly through increased premiums..... i completely understand the need for medical costs to be covered, but at small accident levels, is it nearly cheaper to try to deal ex insurance?

Its the name of the game I am afraid.....

On the flip side however, You CAN actually pay your insurer back when the claim settles.
You are currently being charged a premium based on their reserve for the claim. Their reserve is worst case scenario. When the claim settles any premium over paid by you will be refunded to you straight away by the Insurer.

Once settled and if affordable you can choose to pay the Insurer back what the claim cost them (not including their admin or Invesitgation costs) and have your policy put back to normal. They are not at a loss and in essence whilst the incident did occur in their eyes, They didn't lose money so it didn't

If that makes sense ?

Guy:Incognito

sydthebeat wrote: »

I just got some more quotes online showing me with 0 NCB and a claims value of €4000 and theyre still 1000 less that my current quote!!
.

0 ncb and 0 ncb because of a claim are different things.

Are you getting quoets by ticking the boxes that say you or your named drivers have no claims against you int he last x years (usually 5 iirc)? If so youd be paying €700 or so for a worthless bit of paper.

Our man in Havana

That's not actually true. The other Insurer is legally obliged to accept the "protected" NCB when given it. One can protect their NCB under a benefit policy and they are entitled to receive the appropriate discount from their next insurer..

Oh really? Trying telling FBD that when you present a protected Quinn NCB that a claim was made on.

MugMugs

Our man in Havana wrote: »

That's not actually true. The other Insurer is legally obliged to accept the "protected" NCB when given it. One can protect their NCB under a benefit policy and they are entitled to receive the appropriate discount from their next insurer..

Oh really? Trying telling FBD that when you present a protected Quinn NCB that a claim was made on.

Complain. They have no right not applying the discount onto the loaded premium.

sydthebeat

thanks everyone, especially mugsmugs.. you seem to be very knowledgeable on this.


just after putting the phone down to my underwriters who explained that the claim is still open and invoices from the 3rd party are not in yet. He explained that the premium quote i recieved was based in standard reserves assumed (€3000 for me, €2500 for 3rd party). Now i am 100% certain that the total claim on my end is €500 (value - €200 excess)... he also explained that it would be very difficult to get insured with another company while a claim is outstanding.. so my hands may be tied here.

the only hope i have of being on the road in 4 weeks is that the claim is settled for a lot less that €5500 and that dramatically reduces the premium.

using on line calculators with a claim figure of €3000 with 0 NCB was offering premiums of €700 rather than the €1700 i was given.

sydthebeat

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

0 ncb and 0 ncb because of a claim are different things.

Are you getting quoets by ticking the boxes that say you or your named drivers have no claims against you int he last x years (usually 5 iirc)? If so youd be paying €700 or so for a worthless bit of paper.

no, im being completely honest in the online calculators. They all ask about claims, date of incident etc...

MugMugs

sydthebeat wrote: »

thanks everyone, especially mugsmugs.. you seem to be very knowledgeable on this.


just after putting the phone down to my underwriters who explained that the claim is still open and invoices from the 3rd party are not in yet. He explained that the premium quote i recieved was based in standard reserves assumed (€3000 for me, €2500 for 3rd party). Now i am 100% certain that the total claim on my end is €500 (value - €200 excess)... he also explained that it would be very difficult to get insured with another company while a claim is outstanding.. so my hands may be tied here.

the only hope i have of being on the road in 4 weeks is that the claim is settled for a lot less that €5500 and that dramatically reduces the premium.

using on line calculators with a claim figure of €3000 with 0 NCB was offering premiums of €700 rather than the €1700 i was given.

From dealing with these sorts of claims, Injury shouldnt be an issue for the Third Party. Drivers of Tractor units most of the time dont even realise they've been hit.

The outlay issue for you will obviously be the repairs to the tractor unit however could also include downtime for the vehicle. ie: Loss of use. This could be expensive.

Best of luck either way.

peteb2

Mugsmugs, you are wrong on the protected no-claims bonus point. No insurer is obligated to accept a no-claims bonus that was protected. They are free to apply their own claims acceptance to the criteria that affects the NCB. Certain insurers such as prestige, setanta, will. Others such as AXA or Aviva wont.

MugMugs

peteb2 wrote: »

Mugsmugs, you are wrong on the protected no-claims bonus point. No insurer is obligated to accept a no-claims bonus that was protected. They are free to apply their own claims acceptance to the criteria that affects the NCB. Certain insurers such as prestige, setanta, will. Others such as AXA or Aviva wont.

In the event that the Insured upon inception of a policy add's to the policy with a benefit Policy namely "NCB Protection" and on the understanding that the NCB protection benefit sought has been paid for in full then upon one at fault accident (and in some cases Fire and Theft) the Insured is entitled to "protect" their NCB.

The Insurer upon renewal of the policy will issue the Insured with an NCB Statement. This statement must reflect the fault that the policy has a specific amount of years attained to it. The Insurer must also advise of the "Actual Amount of Claim Free Years"

The next Insurer is obiged to recognise the NCB Certificate under the Financial Regulator (Central Bank of Ireland's) Consumer Protection Code however, the next Insurer may also consider the Actual NCB years and also "load" the policy reflective of the previous claim.

I'm actually not wrong. I'm quite right...

peteb2

All you have done there is copy a piece of a code relating to the issuing of a no claims bonus and the ability to avail of protection from the existing insurer.

If you re-read the last paragraph it confirms that a new insurer does not have to give you the amount of protected years you have and can in fact treat it as the wish and step it back. Sorry smugmugs but you just disproved your own post there. No offence but so you actually have any industry experience or are you some one that thinks that Google has all the answers?

MugMugs

peteb2 wrote: »

All you have done there is copy a piece of a code relating to the issuing of a no claims bonus and the ability to avail of protection from the existing insurer.

If you re-read the last paragraph it confirms that a new insurer does not have to give you the amount of protected years you have and can in fact treat it as the wish and step it back. Sorry smugmugs but you just disproved your own post there. No offence but so you actually have any industry experience or are you some one that thinks that Google has all the answers?

I wrote that myself actually. I underwrite policies for a living pal. You're trolling now!

coylemj

MugMugs wrote: »

That's not actually true. The other Insurer is legally obliged to accept the "protected" NCB when given it. One can protect their NCB under a benefit policy and they are entitled to receive the appropriate discount from their next insurer.

The issue at hand is the next insurer can load for the claim made and the associated risk.

Aren't those statements contradictory?

The other insurer is legally obliged to accept a protected NCB but they can load for the claim - which means they are treating you as if you don't have an NCB.

Doesn't a 'protected' NCB mean that a specific insurance company are saying that even if you have a claim they will not load your premium on the next renewal and either you pay for this protection with a top-up premium or (as in my case) they offer it as an incentive to stay with them because you have such a good record.

As such this is an arrangement between you and that insurance company, how can another insurance company be obliged to give you a NCB when you have had a claim?

MugMugs

coylemj wrote: »

Aren't those statements contradictory?

The other insurer is legally obliged to accept a protected NCB but they can load for the claim - which means they are treating you as if you don't have an NCB.

Doesn't a 'protected' NCB mean that a specific insurance company are saying that even if you have a claim they will not load your premium on the next renewal and either you pay for this protection with a top-up premium or (as in my case) they offer it as an incentive to stay with them because you have such a good record.

As such this is an arrangement between you and that insurance company, how can another insurance company be obliged to give you a NCB when you have had a claim?

Eh, No ?

You're loaded for a level of different things irrespective of you having a claim or not. Your last policy suffered a degree of loading too even if you didnt have a claim.

You could have your policy loaded for being 18 and just passing your driving test or for driving a High Value, High Powered Car or for having an endorsement on your licence due to something like Drink Driving.

And on your last question, Regulation is the key answer there.

NCB was brought in by Insurers to keep clients. It then became very popular and was regulated by the now Central Bank of Ireland. Insurers are bound to regulatory rules.

NCB protection is a subsection to an RTA policy. It isnt liability it is Benefit. Whats printed on the NCB statement is what the client is entitled too.

sydthebeat

further update on my claim...


the assessing engineer deemed a front tyre to be illegal so the insurer is deducting €200 from my claim saying it was partly responsible. I would serious question this, but am i barking up the wrong tree??

also, if i am insured 'social and domestic' does that mean that i cannot use my car during work hours to travel to jobs? im in the architecture business so going to view sites etc is part and partial of everyday work....
the insurer have asked for me to clarify the use of the car at the time of the accident...

can anyone give me a pointer here?? thanks

slimjimmc

Social and domestic generally covers you when driving (and carrying tools) from your place of residence to your place of work. If you're going to the office first, then going out to sites as part of your work that could very well be considered a business use, especially if you're carrying work tools/goods to these sites. That's the gist, but your insurer could have a more restrictive definition.

peteb2

You are going to have a big problem. If you have social domestic pleasure only then even driving to and from work will be a problem. Most policies will cover you to drive to and from your permanent place of work. But visiting sites is completly a no-no. You would likely need class 2 cover for that.

Otis Driftwood

sydthebeat wrote: »

further update on my claim...


the assessing engineer deemed a front tyre to be illegal so the insurer is deducting €200 from my claim saying it was partly responsible. I would serious question this, but am i barking up the wrong tree??

also, if i am insured 'social and domestic' does that mean that i cannot use my car during work hours to travel to jobs? im in the architecture business so going to view sites etc is part and partial of everyday work....
the insurer have asked for me to clarify the use of the car at the time of the accident...

can anyone give me a pointer here?? thanks

Did the accident happen while you were on the way to work(ie office),on the way to work (during office hours but going to a site) or outside of office hours?

With most social,domestic and pleasure policies you are covered for travelling to and from work however if you are regularly going to different sites and/or claiming mileage then you may have a problem as you really should have Class 2 (business use).

It also depends on your insurer,some companies offer that type of cover as standard (provided its not excessive use).

I dont want to worry you unnecessarily however this could prove troublesome.

MugMugs

sydthebeat wrote: »

further update on my claim...


the assessing engineer deemed a front tyre to be illegal so the insurer is deducting €200 from my claim saying it was partly responsible. I would serious question this, but am i barking up the wrong tree??

also, if i am insured 'social and domestic' does that mean that i cannot use my car during work hours to travel to jobs? im in the architecture business so going to view sites etc is part and partial of everyday work....
the insurer have asked for me to clarify the use of the car at the time of the accident...

can anyone give me a pointer here?? thanks

There are a few reasons why you have to specify your use of the vehicle. As already stated, using the vehicle FOR work goes against Social Domestic and Pleasure. Class two cover covers you for this and also offers your employer an automatic indemnity should anything occur. Cant remember the case law behind that. It will not cover the commercial transport of goods etc however.

oldyouth

MugMugs wrote: »

That's not actually true. The other Insurer is legally obliged to accept the "protected" NCB when given it. One can protect their NCB under a benefit policy and they are entitled to receive the appropriate discount from their next insurer.

Other insurers are not 'legally obliged' to accept a contract benefit provided by another insurer. Some do, some don't, but they don't have to. The same way any alternative insurer can price themsevles out of any particular risk they are not keen on.

To protect your bonus you pay an additional premium to your insurer. It does not come with the right to force a competitor to honour the terms of the original contract. As I said, some have made the underwriting decision to allow the full discount off their rates, others have not. Both scenarios are commercial decisions

sydthebeat

further update...

i dont even have class 1 insurance.. i just have 'social and domestic'.

Our man in Havana

sydthebeat wrote: »

further update...

i dont even have class 1 insurance.. i just have 'social and domestic'.

Which is class 1.

sydthebeat

when i was talking to the broker she said that no, i dont even have class 1, i just have social and domestic...
im covered to travel to one fixed place of work.. but not various places.