The Elephant in the room.

eddison

While the Irish government made many mistakes, the biggest one was (like the UK) opening up the doors to eastern europe.

Not many like to talk about this subject, as we are fixated on being "good" and "lets invite the poor of the world to Ireland". Now all this is very noble, and that Nigerian woman Pamela fooled the "holy ones" in an excellent stitch up, when it was found out that she lied through her teeth.

Seems poor Irish buggers are not very streetwise. We are now paying 30 million a week to Polish people. Yep, thats right, 30 million every single week, and we are struggling with crippling debt. They get more on the dole here, than working full time in Poland. More will be coming in, so this will rise to 60 million a week in the next few years.

Thats because there are 150,000 non Irish, who are here and don't give a tinkers dam about what we owe, as long as they can get the dole, and we are still stupid enough to give it to them. But no one want to say anything about this in case they are attacked by "the holy ones"

Fact is we are same population as Manchester. We have the space for another 25 million people, at least, compared to somewhere like Holland. The more Poles that are here, the more will want to come here, until it will be too late one day, as the country will be Polish. 300,000 already in these few short years, will double then triple at an alarming rate.

I have nothing against Polish people, but I don't want to give them my money, and I don't want to live in debt to give them my money. We have done our bit for them, they have to sort themselves out.

dvpower

Last time I checked we were being bailed out by the EU and others, including Poland.

Chuck Stone

eddison wrote: »

While the Irish government made many mistakes, the biggest one was (like the UK) opening up the doors to eastern europe.

Mistake for who?

Seems poor Irish buggers are not very streetwise. We are now paying 30 million a week to Polish people. Yep, thats right, 30 million every single week, and we are struggling with crippling debt.

Which the vast majority of would be fully entitled to it by paying PRSI contributions.

More will be coming in, so this will rise to 60 million a week in the next few years.

Source?

Thats because there are 150,000 non Irish, who are here and don't give a tinkers dam about what we owe, as long as they can get the dole, and we are still stupid enough to give it to them.

Bleh. You can't speak for 150K people.

Fact is we are same population as Manchester. We have the space for another 25 million people, at least, compared to somewhere like Holland. The more Poles that are here, the more will want to come here, until it will be too late one day, as the country will be Polish. 300,000 already in these few short years, will double then triple at an alarming rate.

So you're afraid of hordes of foregners flooding the Island? Jesus, will you cop on?

I have nothing against Polish people, but I don't want to give them my money, and I don't want to live in debt to give them my money. We have done our bit for them, they have to sort themselves out.

We done nothing for them - they done it for themselves.

syklops

That is one famous elephant, he gets talked about more than Elvis does.

The real elephant in the room is the social welfare bill, and the public service bill. Although its not a real elephant in the room kind of situation because most people are fully aware of its presence.

Laying the blame at the feet of a faceless minority, is immature and pathetic, not to mention, just plain wrong.

blanchdub

the polish in Ireland -like so many other migrants- have been and are still contributing greatly to the Irish economy ( paying taxes, increasing the quality of services, contributing to their local community thru clubs, parish etc...). And overall Poles are blending into the society - and respecting the local culture- like millions of Poles have done before in the USA, France or Germany.

that said, the political correctness -not being able to have a critical view over some migrants without being tagged as racist- is very dangerous, as this can lead to the rise of extreme parties which can stigmatise too much migrants ( like recently in Holland, Austria, France, as the main parties dealt with the issue too late and blamed the middle class for voting right for many years).

Unless the UK, Germany, France, Holland and Belgium to list a few, Ireland is blessed by a good mixed of foreign nationals ( Polish, Eastern Europe, India, Africa, ..different religion...) and this will help a lot in integrating them and avoid communitarianism. but we need to be vigiland with some communities which are not respecting the Irish culture, will not allow their daughters to get married to Irish because they are not of the right religion, abusing the system...

Terrontress

The Polish and other immigrants came here because there was a labour shortage at the time. We invited them over, made it easy for them because it suited us. We got more from it at the time than they did.

While this may be a generalisation, I'd think that most Polish folk in Ireland were harder working than their Irish counterparts, just as Irish people abroad tend to be known for their industry.

The bottom line is that nobody owns the country which has had people come and go over the millenia, just as many Irish people have left Ireland and we expect dignity and equal status for them.

dvpower

syklops wrote: »

That is one famous elephant, he gets talked about more than Elvis does.

The OP's elephant is a big pink flying one.

eddison wrote: »

The more Poles that are here, the more will want to come here, until it will be too late one day, as the country will be Polish. 300,000 already in these few short years, will double then triple at an alarming rate.

:pac:

Tora Bora

In the room called Ireland Inc, there are quite a few elephants:o This country is getting more and more like a zoo every day.
The monkeys, are particularly dominant and occupy strategic positions overlooking the capital city, such as Dail Eireann and Liberty Hall. There are many other colonies scattered throughout the country, holed up in county and city council chambers, etc, etc,.

RedXIV

Didn't the latest stats show that there are less polish people in the country now? I vaguely remember reading that?

irishh_bob

blanchdub wrote: »

the polish in Ireland -like so many other migrants- have been and are still contributing greatly to the Irish economy ( paying taxes, increasing the quality of services, contributing to their local community thru clubs, parish etc...). And overall Poles are blending into the society - and respecting the local culture- like millions of Poles have done before in the USA, France or Germany.

that said, the political correctness -not being able to have a critical view over some migrants without being tagged as racist- is very dangerous, as this can lead to the rise of extreme parties which can stigmatise too much migrants ( like recently in Holland, Austria, France, as the main parties dealt with the issue too late and blamed the middle class for voting right for many years).

Unless the UK, Germany, France, Holland and Belgium to list a few, Ireland is blessed by a good mixed of foreign nationals ( Polish, Eastern Europe, India, Africa, ..different religion...) and this will help a lot in integrating them and avoid communitarianism. but we need to be vigiland with some communities which are not respecting the Irish culture, will not allow their daughters to get married to Irish because they are not of the right religion, abusing the system...

prior to the introduction of the universal social charge , the majority of eastern europeans wouldnt have been earning enough to pay any tax worth talking about , that poles etc tend to live very frugally ( eight to a small house ) and send home a sizeable chunk of what they earn , only adds to the spuriousness of the claim that they contributed to the economy in any sizeable way , i do however wish to point out that i dont blame someone from poland for claiming what they are entitled to in terms of social wellfare , its up to the irish goverment to rectify this situation

cavedave

the majority of eastern europeans wouldnt have been earning enough to pay any tax worth talking about ... only adds to the spuriousness of the claim that they contributed to the economy in any sizeable way

So by doing low wage jobs they were not contributing to the economy?

syklops

Im surprised this thread has survived as long as it has.

First off here are some facts:

The low-paid polish immigrant was not as low paid as we think. During the building boom, even unskilled labourers were in demand, and were paid good money. As well as the unskilled labourers, there were also many skilled workers who came here with Civil Engineering qualifications, and Computer Engineering qualifications, who managed to secure well paying jobs.

The stereotypical image of 8 Poles living in a 3-bed semi did occur, but none of my friends lived in that kind of set up for more than a few months. They either worked out a contract and left, or secured a permanent job and moved into a flat, house share or bedsit.

We also think of the Poles as all being single men with crew cuts, but many, once, settled brought over wives and girlfriends, who got jobs in local pubs, local shops and other companies who were looking for people at the time. All of these jobs bring with them salaries where tax is payable.

Yes they lived frugally, but they didnt live on duty free cigarettes and fresh air. Every major supermarket chain started sprouting eastern European food aisles. This is because there was demand for it, because the Poles were in supermarkets buying stuff and were asking for Bigos sauce, Kabanosi and Tyskie.

fliball123

The OP doesnt hold water no doubt there are foreign Nationals taking the p1ss but from experience I had the pleasure of working with a lad from Poland. He and his wife worked in Ireland for 3 years and he has since left the country like many of his countrymen ..that was last year...He couldnt claim the dole as he had not worked up enough Prsi contributions...and the social welfare made him jump through hoops and at the end of it he was 2 weeks short....So he got Nada.....He was telling me that when he came to Ireland he made many polish friends and has said only the ones that have meet Irish boyfriends or girlfriends are staying....

Why the hell would any more come..Sure no one is entitled to the dole or anything else anymore that includes Irish who went travelling for the year...There will be a lot less emigration to Ireland in the future and the trend I reckon has started to reverse

Manach

On the OP original point, I'd disagree especially regarding the Poles/Eastern Europeans. Those that I know, work hard and contribute to the local community.

Atilathehun

fliball123 wrote: »

The OP doesnt hold water no doubt there are foreign Nationals taking the p1ss but from experience I had the pleasure of working with a lad from Poland. He and his wife worked in Ireland for 3 years and he has since left the country like many of his countrymen ..that was last year...He couldnt claim the dole as he had not worked up enough Prsi contributions...and the social welfare made him jump through hoops and at the end of it he was 2 weeks short....So he got Nada.....He was telling me that when he came to Ireland he made many polish friends and has said only the ones that have meet Irish boyfriends or girlfriends are staying....

Why the hell would any more come..Sure no one is entitled to the dole or anything else anymore that includes Irish who went travelling for the year...There will be a lot less emigration to Ireland in the future and the trend I reckon has started to reverse

Rubbish. I know plenty of Polish couples staying on in Ireland. I know of two couples who went back to Poland to get married in the past month alons. They are returning to Ireland after honeymoon to settle.
Not saying anything wrong with that, but just pointing out it's a fact.

Where I work, we had 12 Poles when the financial crisis struck. Most were there less than 2 years along with several Irish. Most were let go along with the Irish who were less than two years service.
Three Poles are still here. Two have since married fellow Poles, and are back here to stay. For good they tell me.
The other is doing likewise later this year. They all figure, Ireland is a MUCH better place to be, even considering our current difficulties. They figure that Irish people see Poland through the prism of places Irish have seen in Poland thanks to Ryanair.
They say, many, many other cities, towns and general provincial areas, are decades behind the Kracow, Warsaw, Gdansk, etc. Dim and dismal by comparisson and compared to Ireland.

eddison

Hi Folks,

Some very nice and charming noble posts there, but the fact is that this week, we will be shelling out another 30 million quid. Next week, we will be shelling out another 30 million quid, to foreign nationals on the dole.
Its nice to help the poor, but not when you are poor! and we are not only poor, we are in danger of getting into a debt spiral- borrowing to pay off national debts.

To all those with nice sentiments, a.s.o. imagine 4 times the foreign nationals, like Polish people.
Would you be prepared to pay 120 million per week in dole payments??
The A&E ward was closed in Rosscommon, it cost 8 million to build, how many A&E units would we get for 120 million.
Ok you may think- ha that will not happen- 4 times the forign nationals! never gonna happen, but I have news for you !! It is going to happen, and will push this tiny country over the edge.

According world salaries website, a postman, or car mechanic gets 500 euros a month in Poland. The dole here is nearly twice that. there are 38,000,000 Poles and many on much less as they do not have a job. All it will take is one or two million poles to come here, for a better life, and better dole, and its game over Ireland.
This is the REALITY- WE CAN'T AFFORD CHARITY RIGHT NOW.

meditraitor

Not one of the posts above is on solid ground!

Firstly has the OP got any data to show that the the poles are costing 30m a week in social security?


Secondly have any of the other side got proof that there are not a shed load of poles bumming of the state?

There is another thing that struck me from this thread and many like it in the past year..... Why do people think that because some polish(for the sake of clarity, but could be latvian ghanain etc) guy worked here for a year in the building should we supply social services for another 3 years after they stop working?

European law states

EEA nationals have no automatic Irish social welfare entitlements on arrival in the
state. Directive 2004/38 EC sets out that EEA nationals have the right to reside in
another Member State for three months so long as they do not become a ‘burden on
the social assistance system’ of the state.

http://www.flac.ie/download/pdf/briefing_paper_on_immigrants_rights_to_social_welfare_in_ireland_january_2010.pdf

But heres the problem,

Once they have entered the labour market they are defined as a ‘worker’ as long as
that work is ‘real and genuine, to the exclusion of activities on such a small scale as
to be regarded as purely marginal and ancillary’2. If a person becomes involuntarily
unemployed they continue to be defined as a ‘worker’ under EU Law.

This means that if they come over, work for 6 months and then go on the scratcher they can sit pretty for as long as they like and live of the gravy train of Irish Social welfare....

To put it simply, its the Irish social services that needs to be drastically changed and not the imigrants attitude to it,,,,,

Nijmegen

It'd be real interesting if a few of you might introduce some facts into the debate. Namely, that as foreign nationals lost jobs in massive numbers we did not see a massive uptick in the number of them signing on - most went home.

fliball123

Atilathehun wrote: »

Rubbish. I know plenty of Polish couples staying on in Ireland. I know of two couples who went back to Poland to get married in the past month alons. They are returning to Ireland after honeymoon to settle.
Not saying anything wrong with that, but just pointing out it's a fact.

Where I work, we had 12 Poles when the financial crisis struck. Most were there less than 2 years along with several Irish. Most were let go along with the Irish who were less than two years service.
Three Poles are still here. Two have since married fellow Poles, and are back here to stay. For good they tell me.
The other is doing likewise later this year. They all figure, Ireland is a MUCH better place to be, even considering our current difficulties. They figure that Irish people see Poland through the prism of places Irish have seen in Poland thanks to Ryanair.
They say, many, many other cities, towns and general provincial areas, are decades behind the Kracow, Warsaw, Gdansk, etc. Dim and dismal by comparisson and compared to Ireland.

Did I say all of the Polish people were heading home I just said that this one individual said that the majority of the polish people he meet and made friends with were heading home and the only ones who seem to be staying were going out with an irish person.....

dvpower

eddison wrote: »

All it will take is one or two million poles to come here, for a better life, and better dole, and its game over Ireland.

Only one or two million more you say?:pac::pac:

irishh_bob

cavedave wrote: »

So by doing low wage jobs they were not contributing to the economy?

nice cherry picking there , during the boom , many eastern europeans were earning salarys which were at a level which left them outside the tax net , they also tended to send home a sizeable chunk of thier wages aswell as live quite frugally here , living ten to a two bed house , drinking cans at home etc , thier NET contribution to the irish economy would have been much lower than thier contribution to the economy of thier home country

syklops

Im unfollowing this thread. I am surprised it lasted as long as it did. I will leave you with this: Blaming one minority for our current situation is pathetic.

Nijmegen

nice cherry picking there , during the boom , many eastern europeans were earning salarys which were at a level which left them outside the tax net , they also tended to send home a sizeable chunk of thier wages aswell as live quite frugally here , living ten to a two bed house , drinking cans at home etc , thier NET contribution to the irish economy would have been much lower than thier contribution to the economy of thier home country

If my auntie had balls...

Given that we had a massive labour shortage at the height of our boom (market economics simply say they wouldn't have come if there weren't jobs available) then the Irish economy certainly would have suffered without them.

And the figures show that after arriving, working, creating wealth and seeing the boom go away, so did most of the foreigners.

I hope all the folks who begrudge foreign workers in Ireland don't get their wishes and all the Irish we've ever exported get sent home. Similarly, I wish they'd read up on a bit of simple economic theory as to why you're worse off without migrant workers than with them.

Why do you think in the US business, normally 'conservatives', is one of the biggest lobby groups for allowing illegals from Mexico to stay in country?

irishh_bob

Nijmegen wrote: »

If my auntie had balls...

Given that we had a massive labour shortage at the height of our boom (market economics simply say they wouldn't have come if there weren't jobs available) then the Irish economy certainly would have suffered without them.

And the figures show that after arriving, working, creating wealth and seeing the boom go away, so did most of the foreigners.

I hope all the folks who begrudge foreign workers in Ireland don't get their wishes and all the Irish we've ever exported get sent home. Similarly, I wish they'd read up on a bit of simple economic theory as to why you're worse off without migrant workers than with them.

Why do you think in the US business, normally 'conservatives', is one of the biggest lobby groups for allowing illegals from Mexico to stay in country?

wages for unskilled workers and wellfare in america is but a fraction of what it is in ireland

ninty9er

syklops wrote: »

That is one famous elephant, he gets talked about more than Elvis does.

The real elephant in the room is the social welfare bill, and the public service bill. Although its not a real elephant in the room kind of situation because most people are fully aware of its presence.

Laying the blame at the feet of a faceless minority, is immature and pathetic, not to mention, just plain wrong.

In a nutshell!

unit 1

What about all the Irish elephants in the UK, and all our beloved "undocumented" elephants in the US. Perhaps we could repatriate all our foreign elepants and bring home all our own prodigal elephants, many of whom still claim the Queens shilling, when their friends and kin came home and they did'nt.;)

Latchy

unit 1 wrote: »

What about all the Irish elephants in the UK, and all our beloved "undocumented" elephants in the US. Perhaps we could repatriate all our foreign elepants and bring home all our own prodigal elephants, many of whom still claim the Queens shilling, when their friends and kin came home and they did'nt.;)

Why would they want to go back to a country that was on it's arse anyway when they first left ?

Not all Irish emigrants lived through the celtic tiger years with it's false dawn and debt that many find themselfs in now so in that respect , many of the prodical sons and daughters ( who left in the 80s ) don't owe Ireland a red cent .

eddison

Such nice sentiments from everyone !

But the reality is we cannot afford sentiments.

Basically it is down to this;
Say your on the dole, a job comes up, who deserves it most;

A Latvian Polish or Lithuanian person,
or you?

If you say they deserve it, then be a good (possibly stupid) Irish person, and give your job (assuming you have one) to a poor Latvian person. They will be eternally grateful to you.

Reekwind

eddison wrote: »

Say your on the dole, a job comes up, who deserves it most;

I'd like to think that the job would go to the person who is best qualified for it regardless of nationality. And yeah, I speak as someone who just came off the dole

It always amazes me when you hear Irish people come out with this sort of bigoted nonsense. Is there one person in this country who doesn't know someone who has emigrated? For centuries we Irish have travelled abroad looking for work, and often faced discrimination and prejudice in the process. But now we're not afraid to put the boot into the Poles or Latvian or Nigerians, as if they were somehow inferior to the hundreds of thousands of Irish expats. Pathetic

PhatPiggins

I had hoped this was going to be a thread about Brian Cowan

hmmm

200,000 Irish born dossers were on the Dole during the Celtic Tiger, yet the OP chooses to pick on the one group of people that, to a man, came here to work. I hope the hard working Poles remain in this country to help us pay for the Irish people who have never worked a day in their life.

beagle001

irishh_bob wrote: »

nice cherry picking there , during the boom , many eastern europeans were earning salarys which were at a level which left them outside the tax net , they also tended to send home a sizeable chunk of thier wages aswell as live quite frugally here , living ten to a two bed house , drinking cans at home etc , thier NET contribution to the irish economy would have been much lower than thier contribution to the economy of thier home country

Its true they payed feck all tax on their income,the vast majority of them by a long shot were in low skilled labour,secondly most married young in Poland moved to Ireland and combined their tax credits to limit their tak payments.
I know this to be the case for several Polish that I know,now in their defence the majority of Polish that I know are not stingy dole scrounging folk,nor are they better workers than the Irish,each to their own on that one.
Yes they will order mechanical parts online from Poland to fix a simple car problem that we would send to the garage,they want to spend on bare essentials mainly but will contribute to a round of drinks or invite you over for dinner.They will spend on luxury items also but take care of it and I see a sort of similar trend in Ireland as I experienced in oz with the Asians.
Most Asians I knew in Oz had a very nice car,house,motorbike or expensive clothing but the Ozzies had serious racism towards them and could not understand how the Asians could afford this stuff,the simple fact they worked often 2 jobs and saved for everything they had as well as send money home.
Now it is up the the Poles what they do with their money,its the stupid Paddies who blew the boom or the fella earning over 1200 a week with nothing to show for it and now claiming benefits that are often the ones coming out with this anti immigrant speel.
Its a only a few bad eggs from Eastern Europe that targeted Ireland for its social welfare just like the Nigerians.
The Polish came,they saved and they moved on or returned in many cases.
Blame the system not the people,if these benefits were not their for them then no problem,but the Irish Govt fecked up in 2004 and it was all to help their property developer buddies fill the houses.

DoesNotCompute

eddison wrote: »

Such nice sentiments from everyone !

But the reality is we cannot afford sentiments.

Basically it is down to this;
Say your on the dole, a job comes up, who deserves it most;

A Latvian Polish or Lithuanian person,
or you?

If you say they deserve it, then be a good (possibly stupid) Irish person, and give your job (assuming you have one) to a poor Latvian person. They will be eternally grateful to you.

Whomsoever is the most qualified for the job deserves it. Nationality shouldn't come into it.

eddison

For centuries we Irish have travelled abroad looking for work, and often faced discrimination and prejudice in the process.

Thats because immigrants took over the country lol!

Fine, call me what you like- a bigot if you want to. But its not about that if you care to read the posts. Its about the economy stupid.
Polish people are some of the most religious people around, which is positive. They do work hard, I accept that, they also drink hard. I asked a Polish person what do Poles really think of Irish- he said half think they are ok, the other half think they are stupid and lazy.

Ok how many should we accept then?
100 thousand?
1 million?
2 million?
3 million?
More than 3 million?

Mena

eddison wrote: »

Ok how many should we accept then?
100 thousand?
1 million?
2 million?
3 million?
More than 3 million?

Just when is this going to happen exactly? Should I hold my breath? Because the damn borders have been open to them since 2004 and they're still a tiny, tiny minority...

But don't let that stop you.

charlemont

eddison wrote: »

Thats because immigrants took over the country lol!

Fine, call me what you like- a bigot if you want to. But its not about that if you care to read the posts. Its about the economy stupid.
Polish people are some of the most religious people around, which is positive. They do work hard, I accept that, they also drink hard. I asked a Polish person what do Poles really think of Irish- he said half think they are ok, the other half think they are stupid and lazy.

Ok how many should we accept then?
100 thousand?
1 million?
2 million?
3 million?
More than 3 million?

Ah sure we could fit 3 million no bother, The place is underpopulated as it is.

eddison

tiny minority...

A tiny minority lol!
Walking around with our eyes closed got us in a fix with the catholic church, it also got us in a fix with corrupt FF politicians, planning scandals, and banks, and now the latest !

Open your eyes, unless you call 10% of the population a tiny minority. you haven't been to Dublin city center lately have you?

Ah sure we could fit 3 million no bother, The place is underpopulated as it is.

I didn't think I would get an answer so fair play Charlemont.
3 million, ok, now we don't have jobs at the moment Charlemeont, this is going to cost a bit of cash.
Correct me if I am wrong but I make it about €600 million a week for that, oh and 30 million a week for the 'dossers' already on the dole. thats a grand total of 630 million a week, or 32 billion a year in dole payments.
I don't think your figures add up Charlemont, because we still have other bills to pay??

charlemont

eddison wrote: »

A tiny minority lol!
Walking around with our eyes closed got us in a fix with the catholic church, it also got us in a fix with corrupt FF politicians, planning scandals, and banks, and now the latest !

Open your eyes, unless you call 10% of the population a tiny minority. you haven't been to Dublin city center lately have you?



I didn't think I would get an answer so fair play Charlemont.
3 million, ok, now we don't have jobs at the moment Charlemeont, this is going to cost a bit of cash.
Correct me if I am wrong but I make it about €600 million a week for that, oh and 30 million a week for the 'dossers' already on the dole. thats a grand total of 630 million a week, or 32 billion a year in dole payments.
I don't think your figures add up Charlemont, because we still have other bills to pay??

Well we can stop paying the bailout by abolishing the Republic and becoming a new province of Poland called Zachodnia Polska and therefore we can look forward to a new round of European Union Structural Funds. :rolleyes:

Thespoofer

Hey OP, do you have a job at present ?

nesf

Yeah, I think this thread has gone on long enough. No meaningful discussion just one side making points and the other poster ignoring/dismissing them.