Reds under the Bed in Ireland?

Corsendonk

The local newspaper over the last couple of years was republishing old articles from the 50s-60s and one that caught my eye was a small snippet concerning an anti-communist meeting to be held locally with the local priest in attendence in the 1950s. Did Ireland have its own communist witch hunts?

mikemac

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In 1952 Ireland and Yugoslavia were scheduled to meet in a friendly soccer match in Dalymount Park, Dublin. But one of the most influential and dominant Catholic Church figures in Ireland at the time, Archbishop John Charles McQuaid, had other ideas.

McQuaid did not want Ireland to play a ‘Godless country’. He was, like many others, virulently anti-communist. The Cold War was in full spate. Archbishop McQuaid weighed in with his considerable power to get the match stopped. He successfully lobbied the Football Association of Ireland to have the invitation to Yugoslavia withdrawn. FAI officials capitulated very easily.

McQuaid had also sent out feelers about his objections to the politicians of the time. The Cold War anti-communist line was an easy sell in the Ireland of the early 1950s. Pupils in national schools around the country prayedfor ‘the conversion of Russia’ each day. The match did not take place.
McQuaid got his way. :cool:


Ireland v. Yugoslavia, round two

The match report in the Irish Times, 20 October 1955. No mention was made of the controversy surrounding the game.

In view of the cancellation of the 1952 match it came as a surprise when the FAI arranged another match with Yugoslavia for Dalymount in October 1955.

Archbishop McQuaid was furious that his power had been undermined and that the FAI had not sought his permission before they arranged the match.

The FAI was accused of entertaining the ‘tools of Tito in the capital city of Catholic Ireland’. The Yugoslav team were branded as the puppets of a communist state and representatives of a ‘tyrannical regime of persecution’.

Schoolboys were warned not to go to the match as it was seen as a mortal sin. On 15 October McQuaid called on the Irish people to boycott the match. The archbishop did not seem to be observing the teaching of Pope Pius XII that politics should not interfere with sports. Nevertheless, on the evening of Wednesday 19 October between 21,400 and 22,000 supporters turned out at Dalymount Park to see the match.

Liam Touhy was the youngest player on the team on the day. He remembers that there was ‘a bit of a fuss’ about it. But for him it was an international, he was playing for his country, and he did not care about the other things that were going on. He did not think that the players in the dressing room knew or talked about McQuaid and the boycott. ‘To us it was a match to be played for our country.’

I sent a letter to the Evening Herald asking for the views of anybody who was at the match. I got replies from two people who attended with their fathers. The perspectives they gave on it now, as adults, were quite interesting. One was understanding of McQuaid’s anti-communist position, in the context of the time, while the other was quite the opposite and ridiculed the role of the archbishop.

Philip Green, as a Catholic, refused to do the match commentary. The government and the president did not know whether they could or should attend the game. A group of writers and artists, including Paddy Kavanagh, who we now know often received financial assistance from McQuaid, led a protest by publicly attending the game. Dalymount was full. Ireland lost 4–1. McQuaid lost.

The boycott was ignored. :pac:
Afterwards the FAI was praised in certain quarters for showing ‘much daring’ against the might of the Catholic Church. This was one of the first times in recent Irish history that Irish people, in a very public way, went against the Catholic Church’s directives.

Roy Keane’s departure from Saipan pales in comparison to the events surrounding the international in October 1955.

http://www.historyireland.com/volumes/volume15/issue5/features/?id=114133

Snickers Man

Two things:

1) I was unaware of the first cancelled match in 1952.

2) Although it was long before my time,I remember hearing about the second one in 1955. I believe that my now aged mother, a very proper Catholic, went along to the match deliberately to thumb her nose at the Archbishop. She would have been in her early 20s then. She also lived in the Dalymount Park area and was a fervent Bohemians supporter, so she was a fairly regular attender of games.

That is what passed for rebellious anti-authoritarian youth at the time.

I believe one of the immediate issues colouring McQuaid's opinion at the time was the persecution of Cardinal Stepinac of Zagreb who had been tried for war crimes concerning his collaboration with the Nazi-allied Ustashi regime of Croatia during the war. This was widely seen as a show trial given the atmosphere of the Cold War.

By 1955, although he had been released from prison, he had refused to leave Yugoslavia as he had been encouraged to do by the authorities, he remained under house arrest and his death five years later was widely believed to have been caused by poisoning at the hands of the regime.

Corsendonk

My father actually attended that game too. He was a keen LOI supporter and always attended the home internationals. He said it was the best attendance he ever seen at an Ireland game for years, Apart from the Church where their any political figures that where fighting the good fight against communists taking over Ireland?

ejmaztec

Corsendonk wrote: »

My father actually attended that game too. He was a keen LOI supporter and always attended the home internationals. He said it was the best attendance he ever seen at an Ireland game for years, Apart from the Church where their any political figures that where fighting the good fight against communists taking over Ireland?

Patrick Belton TD, who didn't hold anything back in 1936, according to his Wiki page:eek:

"When our organisations work is complete we will make Ireland a very hot spot for any communist to live in...if it is necessary to be a fascist to defend Christianity then I am a fascist and so are my colleagues." – Irish Independent, 12 October 1936

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Belton

It must also be plain that anyone in the Blueshirts must have also been fervently anti-communist.

losthorizon

Im reading Garret Fitzgeralds autobiography at the moment. He said that in the 50s he became a reds under the beds figure as his brother worked in military intelliegnce. He accused all sorts of organisations and people of being communist sympathizers in an article he had published. He meant it to be published anonymously but it was printed under his name. All sorts of organisations and people were targetted including the Irish Countrywomens Association! and people who later became great friends with Fitzgerald. He admits that he was totally misguided.

CDfm

losthorizon wrote: »

All sorts of organisations and people were targetted including the Irish Countrywomens Association! and people who later became great friends with Fitzgerald. He admits that he was totally misguided.

Ah yes, he was making a name for himself as a political colleague of Oliver J Flanagan an anti-semite and Alice Glenn who was very conservative and against divorce

http://books.google.ie/books?id=qZ6W1LiIyYYC&pg=PA233&dq=%22Alice+Glenn%22+%22turkeys+voting+for+Christmas%22&ei=GU5nSfWuJ4zKM8TDrNMM#v=onepage&q=%22Alice%20Glenn%22%20%22turkeys%20voting%20for%20Christmas%22&f=false

Corsendonk

Ailtiri na hAiseirghe seemed to have followed Belton Irish Christian Front as the main anti communist movement after WW2.


Architects of the Resurrection by JM Douglas

In the early 1940s many people in Ireland expected Nazi Germany to win the Second World War. According to secret Irish government assessments, most wanted her to. After the fall of France and with Britain trembling on the brink of defeat, democracy seemed likely to disappear from Europe. But if this happened, how should newly-independent Ireland-a country that had remained neutral in the war-respond to what appeared to be an emerging post-democratic world order? Gearoid O Cuinneagain, a young pro-Axis activist, had an answer. In 1942 he founded Ailtiri na hAiseirghe ("Architects of the Resurrection"), a fascist movement that aimed to destroy the infant Irish democracy and replace it with a one-party totalitarian state. But Ailtiri na hAiseirghe was no Nazi imitator. Rather, it aimed at something far more ambitious: the fusion of totalitarianism and Christianity that would make Ireland a "missionary-ideological state" wielding global influence in the postwar era. Supported by idealistic youths and mainstream politicians like Ernest Blythe, Oliver J. Flanagan and Dan Breen-and scrutinised anxiously by British and American intelligence-Aiseirghe won several seats in the 1945 local government elections. But a devastating split, just as it seemed poised to make a political breakthrough, reversed its fortunes and put an end to O Cuinneagain's once-promising career as a would-be Irish fuhrer. Architects of the Resurrection casts an uncomfortable light on the popularity of anti-democratic, anti-Semitic and extremist ideas in wartime Ireland. Students of Irish history and of comparative fascism will find many new insights in this book.

Corsendonk

Dail debates from 1949.

Dáil Éireann - Volume 117 - 21 July, 1949 - Public Meetings in Dublin

Mr. A. Byrne asked the Minister for Justice if he will state what applications, if any, are required to be made to the Gardaí as a preliminary to the holding of public meetings in the Dublin Metropolitan Area; what considerations are taken into account in dealing with such applications, and to what scrutiny they are subjected; if he will take steps to ensure that permission to hold public meetings shall not be granted in the future without careful examination of the credentials of persons or organisations applying for such permission where it is reasonably suspected that the meeting is for the purpose of promoting Communism.

Mr. A. Byrne asked the Minister for Justice whether he is aware of the great resentment of most citizens at the holding of public meetings in Dublin by a declared Communist organisation, the “Irish Workers' League”, a supporter of which was found guilty in the District Court on the 11th of June of conduct likely to provoke a breach of the peace at a recent meeting; and if, with a view to avoiding further provocation [1573] and resulting demonstrations of hostility he will forbid public assembly of this or any other organisation which aims at the promotion of Communism in Ireland.


General MacEoin: I propose, if the Ceann Comhairle permits, to answer Questions Nos. 7 and 8 together.
I would remind the Deputy that Article 40 of the Constitution guarantees the right of citizens to assemble peaceably and without arms.
Neither the police nor I have authority to grant permission for or to forbid the holding of a public meeting, except a meeting held by or on behalf of or by arrangement or in concert with an unlawful organisation, which can be prohibited by a chief superintendent of the Garda Síochána under Section 27 of the Offences Against the State Act, 1939. The police are entitled to prevent the holding of a meeting or procession if they have reason to fear that it would result in breaches of the peace, but whether they should interfere or not is a matter for them to decide, having regard to the circumstances of each case. It would not be proper for me to issue any general instruction to the police to prevent the holding of meetings by any organisation.


Mr. A. Byrne: Might I ask the Minister and the Taoiseach and the whole Cabinet has the time not arrived when they should get together and put an end to the activities of those who are advocating Communism in this city, aiming at the overthrow of the State and the subversion of Christian teachings? Will they move before it is too late and not force the public to take the law into their own hands, as they did a few days ago?

General MacEoin: I shall be replying to a further question on this matter in a moment. As I said last week, I have no evidence which would convict anyone of Communism. I know there are people who appear to have Communistic tendencies, and that could extend to a lot of people. So long as they are within the law, I cannot interfere, and they appear to be within the law. So far as I know, they are not associated with or affiliated with [1574] the Cominform, which is one of the symbols or signs of actual Communist membership.


Mr. A. Byrne: Did not the Minister read in the newspapers last week that they sent a telegram of sympathy on the death of one of the leading Communists of the world? It was because of the publication of that telegram that the Dublin citizens made up their minds that they would not permit them to carry on an agitation in which they mentioned Christian teaching in derogatory terms?


Mr. Dillon: Who is blaming the citizens of Dublin?

Dáil Éireann - Volume 117 - 21 July, 1949- Communist Activities

Dr. Brennan asked the Minister for Justice if in conformity with the recent condemnation by the Holy See of Communism the Minister will consider the advisability of taking steps to secure that in the Republic of Ireland any Communistic activities threatening to undermine the principles and practices of Christian conduct shall be immediately suppressed.

General MacEoin: As I stated in reply to a question by Deputy Cogan on 15th June, there is, as far as I am aware, no organisation in the State which proclaims itself Communist or is associated with the Cominform.
While there are a few small organisations which appear to have Communist tendencies, the activities of those organisations do not appear to contravene the law, and the Deputy will appreciate, that whatever may be the ultimate aims of organisations or individuals, I have no right to interfere with them unless their activities are unlawful.

Dáil Éireann - Volume 116 - 14 June, 1949 Communism in Ireland.

Mr. Colley asked the Minister for External Affairs if the statement which he is reported to have made recently in America to the effect that there were no Communists in the Republic of Ireland was based on official information.


Minister for External Affairs (Mr. MacBride): No.

Mr. Colley: Seeing that the Minister was in America as the official representative of the Government, are not people entitled to take his statement as being an official statement?


Mr. MacBride: Is that a question or a speech?

An Ceann Comhairle Frank Fahy : A question.

Mr. Colley: One could not help but take it as official, when it was made by a Minister on a visit on official affairs to the United States. How are we to know when statements are personal and when they are official?


Minister for Finance (Mr. McGilligan): That is another question.

Mr. Colley: I think it is a very serious matter.

An Ceann Comhairle Frank Fahy: It is a question.

Mr. MacBride: What is the question?

Mr. Colley: How are we to know when the Minister is talking officially? We have had several instances.

Mr. MacBride: That is not the question which was asked. The question asked was whether the statement made by me was based on official information. I spoke officially, but I did not speak from official information.


Mr. Lemass: A typical lawyer's reply.

Mr. MacBride: I beg your pardon. Now that you have asked for an explanation you will get it. I was asked at a Press interview whether it was true that there was a strong Communist Party here. I said there was no Communist Party in this portion of Ireland. No doubt, as a result of some of the misrepresentations made by some of the Deputy's colleagues, false impressions got abroad in some other countries.


Mr. Lemass: Will the Minister consult Deputy Davin, who made a statement here the other evening?


Mr. MacBride: I am aware of several statements which were made by Deputy MacEntee.


Mr. McCann: Is the Minister aware that very prominent clerics, including Father Paul Walsh, have made statements similar to those statements made by members on this side of the House, and does he doubt those statements?


Mr. MacBride: I am not aware that any prominent member of the Church has ever made allegations similar to those made by Deputy MacEntee.


Mr. McGrath: Is the Minister not aware that the Bishop of Cork stated publicly that there was a Communist cell in the City of Cork? That statement was publicly made by the Bishop of Cork and the Minister knows it.

Dáil Éireann - Volume 103 - 06 November, 1946 Communistic Activity.

Love that word Communistic! Do you wouldn't get away with Mr Walsh and Dillon comments today.

Mr. Coogan asked the Minister for Justice whether he has any information of recently renewed Communistic activity in this State; and if so, whether he will make a statement on the matter.

Mr. Boland: So far as I am aware, any activities of the kind referred to in the question are being carried on, at present, within the law and I propose, in accordance with the usual practice, to regard as confidential any information about such activities which comes to me through official channels.


Mr. Coogan: Does the Minister regard it as proper to allow armchair Communists to function openly in this country? Is the Minister not aware that societies of this nature fomented Communism in other countries?


Mr. Boland: I think as long as they keep to the armchair, they are fairly safe.


Mr. Coogan: Is the Minister not aware that these Soviet Friendship Societies elsewhere led to the formation of fifth columns and may have a like effect here?


Mr. Boland: I have full information about them but, as I have told the Deputy, the information is confidential.


Mr. Dillon: There are enough lampposts in this country to hang fifth columnists, if the necessity arises.


Mr. L.J. Walsh: Some people ought to be hanged on them long ago.

who the fug

What was the name of that Communist guy from Leitrim, passed away in the 1980s

Great orator

CDfm

Yes wtf , I can't think.

Communism in Ireland. It wasn't a generic movement.


The Limerick Soviet was the only Soviet outside Russia, WT Cosgrave refused Leon Trotsky political asylum, going to college that you had Trotskiites floating about holding meetings. There were issues with Russian Communist ties with the Irish Labour Party , Trade Union & Student Union movement's.

Wasn't there an incident where Soviet diplomats visited Waterford Glass workers in the 70's and by the terms of their status they were not allowed travel more than 25 miles from their embassy.

hokeypokey

There could be a phd in all this...

CDfm

hokeypokey wrote: »

There could be a phd in all this...

Or there could be a lot of gossip and scandal -that was sexed up.:D

They never had huge numbers and the Communist Party of Ireland claims James Connolly as their own. As do the Labour Party. As do the Trade Unions.

http://www.communistpartyofireland.ie/stair-en.html

Did they have any famous members (or former members) who went on to greater things , or paramilitary or terrorist links ?

premierlass

Saor Éire was a left-wing organisation declared illegal, but it had probably more to do with its IRA links.

The IRA set up a left wing party under the name of Saor Eire and at its first congress In 1931 it described itself as "an Organization of Workers and Working Farmers" with socialist goals. In October 1931 Saor Eire was denounced by the Catholic Bishops of Ireland as "frankly communistic in its aims". The Bishops went on to say that Saor Eire and the IRA, "whether separate or in alliance", were "sinful and irreligious" and that "no Catholic can lawfully be a member of them." (Quoted by W.K. Anderson, James Connolly and the Irish Left, p. 133.) One day later the IRA, Saor Eire and ten other radical Republican organizations were declared illegal under a Constitution (Declaration of Unlawful Associations) Order.

http://ireland.marxist.com/marxist-theory/165-ireland/7893-ireland-republicanism-and-revolution-part-seven-

One thing Ireland and Soviet Russia had in common was the anti-jazz campaign. "Today you play jazz; tomorrow you will betray your country."

who the fug

CDfm wrote: »

Yes wtf , I can't think.

.

This is bugging the **** out of me now, it was an old blue shirt who put me on to him because I spouting some bollix great public speakers in the Dail (like you do when you are 13)

Anyone

jonniebgood1

who the fug wrote: »

What was the name of that Communist guy from Leitrim, passed away in the 1980s

Great orator

john joe mcgirl ??? Communist or republican?

John Joe McGirl was one of the legendary political figures of the 20th century. After Sen MacDiarmada he was probably the most famous Leitrim republican of all time. John Joe McGirl who died 20 years ago, spent his life in political and republican activity. He was known throughout the 32 counties and spent many years interred in both North and South. He spent a long period in the Curragh during the 1940s and 1950s. In 1957 he was elected as a Sinn Fein TD for Sligo/Leitrim while interred in the Curragh. In the 1970s he was interred in Long Kesh for a period. He was also a County Councillor for many years and served as Cathaoirleach of Leitrim County Council in the 1980s http://www.longfordleader.ie/news/local/ballinamore_local_news_august_7_1_1955267

who the fug

Maybe but back of my head says the guy I am thinking about died around 83/84


One does wish one kept a diary.

CDfm

I can't help you there -but why not ask Marchdub deferentially he may put you out of your misery.

I have come accross an interesting site about the Irish Left and the regimes it supports and has supported

The Irish left's support for Cuban communist dictatorship

• Cuba Support Group - Ireland
• Galway "One World" Centre
  • One man emigrating is another man 'fleeing', Galway "One World" Centre, November 29, 2007. These pampered western leftists, who have known nothing but freedom all their lives, actually defend Castro's policy of denying freedom of movement, and laugh at those who risk their lives to escape communist rule as "emigrants". They quote some lackey of the regime who they hosted in Ireland. Why did they not host a Cuban dissident?
  • "The crumbling buildings in these barrios demonstrate the high price that years of sanctions have exacted from the people of Cuba." Not the high price that communism has exacted from the people of Cuba.
• Communism
• The unfree world
• Cuba
• Che Guevara
• The modern left's support for Cuban communist dictatorship
• Finian McGrath
• Tom McGurk
• Irishwoman Bernie Dwyer actually works for Cuban state propaganda organ Radio Havana Cuba. (This in a country where no free press is allowed.)
  • Her film The Day Diplomacy Died (2010) actually defends Castro's 2003 crackdown on dissidents, journalists, human rights activists and democracy activists. Shame on her.
• Bob Geldof's sister Lynn Geldof liked the non-democracy of Cuba so much that she lived there from 1985 to 1989. Of course, unlike the Cuban people, she was free to leave at any time.
  • Publishers Weekly review of her 1992 book on Cuba says she "takes a distinctly sympathetic stance toward the Cuban state ... Most of the 19 people interviewed in Cuba announce support for the revolution ... In the preface, Geldof likens Cuba's history and geopolitical situation to that of Ireland and says that Cuba's social achievements are impressive compared with those of its Latin American neighbors."
• Travel writer Dervla Murphy also supports communist Cuba.
  • Her 2008 book on Cuba is called "The Island That Dared" - as if being an oppressive, unelected dictatorship is something exciting and unusual in this world.
  • Dervla Murphy also supports Gaza.

T-shirt from here sums up the real Cuban revolution.
Irish left support for other fascist and communist tyranny

• International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic - Ireland (Anti-America, anti-NATO)
  • their links

http://markhumphrys.com/unfree.world.html

Now I haven't read the site or checked its accuracy but I did read up on Che Guevara and my impression was psycho homicidal nutter and whoever shot him might have done the world a favour.

So , reds under the bed , may be a cliche and may do a disservice to our own politicians who emerged after 1922 in what was probably one of the only new democracy of post WWI europe to remain in tact.

What types of regimes did our "reds under the bed" support.

Its a bit simplistic to say " well ,they opposed Franco" while they supported and took money from Stalin and others.

CDfm

who the fug wrote: »

Maybe but back of my head says the guy I am thinking about died around 83/84


One does wish one kept a diary.

or Goold who died in Russia

http://www.communistpartyofireland.ie/s-goold.html

Edit

I went looking for a quote by Castro on Che to illustrate the execution point.

I cant find it but this may give an idea

This is the fourth article in our "Leftwing Monsters" series, the first of which featured Humberto Fontova's profile of Fidel Castro. "Leftwing Monsters" is a feature of www.discoverthenetworks.org where the entire series will be archived -- The Editors.

In August of 1960, a year and a half after Che Guevara entered Havana ahead of his "column" of "guerrillas," Time magazine featured the revolutionary comandante on its cover and crowned him the "Brains of the Cuban Revolution." (Fidel Castro was "the heart" and Raul Castro "the fist.")

"Wearing a smile of melancholy sweetness that many women find devastating," read the Time article, "Che guides Cuba with icy calculation, vast competence, high intelligence and a perceptive sense of humor."

Under Che, Havana's La Cabana fortress was converted into Cuba's Lubianka. He was a true Chekist: "Always interrogate your prisoners at night," Che commanded his prosecutorial goons, "a man is easier to cow at night, his mental resistance is always lower." [1]



A Cuban prosecutor of the time who quickly defected in horror and disgust named Jose Vilasuso estimates that Che signed 400 death warrants the first few months of his command in La Cabana. A Basque priest named Iaki de Aspiazu, who was often on hand to perform confessions and last rites, says Che personally ordered 700 executions by firing squad during the period. Cuban journalist Luis Ortega, who knew Che as early as 1954, writes in his book Yo Soy El Che! that Guevara sent 1,897 men to the firing squad.



In his book Che Guevara: A Biography, Daniel James writes that Che himself admitted to ordering "several thousand" executions during the first year of the Castro regime. Felix Rodriguez, the Cuban-American CIA operative who helped track him down in Bolivia and was the last person to question him, says that Che during his final talk, admitted to "a couple thousand" executions. But he shrugged them off as all being of "imperialist spies and CIA agents."



Vengeance, much less justice, had little to do with the Castro/Che directed bloodbath in the first months of 1959. Che's murderous agenda in La Cabana fortress in 1959 was exactly Stalin's murderous agenda in the Katyn Forest in 1940. Like Stalin's massacre of the Polish officer corps, like Stalin's Great Terror against his own officer corps a few years earlier, Che's firing squad marathons were a perfectly rational and cold blooded exercise that served their purpose ideally. His bloodbath decapitated literally and figuratively the first ranks of Cuba's anti-Castro rebels.



Five years earlier, while still a Communist hobo in Guatemala, Che had seen the Guatemalan officer corps with CIA assistance rise against the Red regime of Jacobo Arbenz and send him and his Communist minions hightailing into exile. (For those leftists who still think that Arbenz was an innocent "nationalist" victimized by the fiendish United Fruit Company and their CIA proxies, please note: Arbenz sought exile not in France or Spain or even Mexico -- the traditional havens for deposed Latin-American politicians -- but in the Soviet satellite, Czechoslovakia. Also, the coup went into motion, not when Arbenz started nationalizing United Fruit property, but when a cargo of Soviet-bloc weapons arrived in Guatemala. "Arbenz didn't execute enough people," was how Guevara explained the Guatemalan coup's success. [2]



Fidel and Che didn't want a repeat of the Guatemalan coup in Cuba. Equally important, the massacres cowed and terrorized. Most of them came after public trials. And the executions, right down to the final shattering of the skull with the coup de grace from a massive .45 slug fired at five paces, were public too. Guevara made it a policy for his men to parade the families and friends of the executed before the blood, bone and brain spattered firing squad

http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=6946

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

So , reds under the bed , may be a cliche and may do a disservice to our own politicians who emerged after 1922 in what was probably one of the only new democracy of post WWI europe to remain in tact.

Yes - I agree. Everything should be understood within its historical context. That generation did very well to establish a stable, democratic state.

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

Yes - I agree. Everything should be understood within its historical context. That generation did very well to establish a stable, democratic state.

Here I got a list of the current "reds under the bed" . I also say the comment " dont forget that in the 1940's the IRA suppoted Hitler


http://markhumphrys.com/irish.left.people.html

The question has to be who were the left and who were their opponenents .

P. Breathnach

CDfm wrote: »

... Now I haven't read the site or checked its accuracy ....

It's jaw-drop stuff.

HellsAngel

Interesting about the Catholic Church and Archbishop McQuaid's domination and McCartyite witchunt's that went on in the country in the 40's and 50's. Fascism doesn't seem to have warranted the same opposition from the Catholic Church, FG, FF, newspapers etc as the great evil of Communism which says a lot about the hypocrisy of the time. Indeed it could be said that the Irish media and Independent newspapers in particuliar, have knocked the mitres from the Bishops heads and placed them on their own.

Interesting though that one of Ireland's leading anti Communists and pro Catholic church mouthpieces Oliver J Flanagan's son Charlie is now calling for the expulsion of the Holy See Ambassador *. Says it all about how things have changed thankfully.

* http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0714/cloyne.html

HellsAngel

mikemac wrote: »

.

In 1952 Ireland and Yugoslavia were scheduled to meet in a friendly soccer match in Dalymount Park, Dublin. But one of the most influential and dominant Catholic Church figures in Ireland at the time, Archbishop John Charles McQuaid, had other ideas.

McQuaid did not want Ireland to play a ‘Godless country’. He was, like many others, virulently anti-communist. The Cold War was in full spate. Archbishop McQuaid weighed in with his considerable power to get the match stopped. He successfully lobbied the Football Association of Ireland to have the invitation to Yugoslavia withdrawn. FAI officials capitulated very easily.

Does anyone know of the main Protestant Churchs thoughts on the game ? I would suspect in the Reds under the Beds witchunt of the time they would have had some similiar views on the match but maybe not so strongly or loudly stated ?

jonniebgood1

CDfm wrote: »

What types of regimes did our "reds under the bed" support.

Its a bit simplistic to say " well ,they opposed Franco" while they supported and took money from Stalin and others.

Who took money from Stalin CD? did I miss that in your link?

I suppose Hubert Butler would have been a 'red under the bed'. He wrote several essays on places he had visited, notably Yugoslavia which were seen as being pro- Tito. He was ostracised but this could be attributed to his anti catholic stance as much as his communist symapthies.

In 1952, at a lecture in Dublin about the persecution of the Roman Catholic Church by the Yugoslav communist regime, Butler rose to remind the audience about the Roman Catholic treatment of the Orthodox in Croatia, and the Papal Nuncio, who was in the hall, walked out. There was a press campaign against Butler. So powerful was local feeling against him that he felt obliged to resign from the Kilkenny Archaeological Society, and only a handful of people were prepared to come to his defence. Butler’s stand was courageous and right. http://www.archipelago.org/vol1-2/appreciation.htm

CDfm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

It's jaw-drop stuff.

He does not pull any punches and he is the great-grandson of WT Cosgrave and Grandson of Liam Cosgrave so he has politics in his blood.

I know a former TD's son with the same type of encyclopedic mind when it comes to Irish political ideologies and politics of influencial people.

His equivalent in a larger country than Ireland i.e the population of the UK or France would have greater circulation as a political /social comentator.

CDfm

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Who took money from Stalin CD? did I miss that in your link?

Ah cmon johnnie - the Soviets were not averse to interfering in national politics

And, I visited Arigna mine a few years back and spoke to a retired miner on the rates of pay in the early 70's as they were a lot higher than the industrial wages etc anywhere in Ireland and it was dangerous work and had piece rate pay for low quality coal..

He told me that he went to England as a miner and the pay was collosal and working conditions fantastic but the guys in Ireland were real miners.

The miners strike in England was politics he said. Scargill had soviet links.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/aug/29/margaret-thatcher-soviet-aid-miners?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Will Spain Inevitably Follow Portugal, Ireland and Greece?

By Michael Moran

NEW YORK - Not since civil war engulfed Spain in the 1930s has so much ridden on the defense of Madrid.
Back then, the Nazi-backed nationalists sought to topple the Soviet-backed Republic behind its ramparts in the Spanish capital. Today, the Germans are playing both sides, riding to the rescue of Spain's debt-ridden European Union partners - the Greeks, the Irish and the Portuguese - under conditions that many economists believe will push Spain, a much larger, more important economy than any to fall so far, to the brink of disaster.


http://www.realclearworld.com/articles/2011/05/04/will_spain_inevitably_follow_portugal_ireland_and_greece_99507.html

Walter Kendall in his book, The Revolutionary Movement in Britain, 1900-21: the Origins of British Communism, 1969, deals with The Call, the BSP and its evolution into the Communist party. Most of his material about The Call is in Chapters 6 and 9. Kendall’s thesis seems to be that there was an organic growth until some point between early 1918 and early in 1919 when the changes that occurred were increasingly pushed through with Russian money and agents and did not arise out of British conditions and so were, in a sense, artificial, all of which is dealt with in great detail in the Part 2 of the book. Studies since the archives have been opened up have tended to confirm Kendall’s thesis as regards the amounts and frequency of Russian subventions though whether the CP was simply an artificial creation of the Russians is a much more debatable point.

http://www.marxists.org/history/international/social-democracy/call/index.htm

No Johnnie there is no evidence that the Soviets ever spent any money in Ireland or elsewhere for political purposes.

jonniebgood1

CDfm wrote: »

Ah cmon johnnie - the Soviets were not averse to interfering in national politics
.

Thats a given but I thought ya meant Soviet money funding in Ireland which could of been interesting. There doesnt seem to have been much they could have funded in Ireland. A couple of organisations in Dublin was all- the Unemployed protest committee got a candidate elected to the Dail but he resigned under pressure from McQuaid. The anti communist hysteria that existed at the time saw most of these types of unemployment support organisations tagged with a stigma. Scagill is interesting although a different era.

premierlass

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Thats a given but I thought ya meant Soviet money funding in Ireland which could of been interesting. There doesnt seem to have been much they could have funded in Ireland. A couple of organisations in Dublin was all- the Unemployed protest committee got a candidate elected to the Dail but he resigned under pressure from McQuaid. The anti communist hysteria that existed at the time saw most of these types of unemployment support organisations tagged with a stigma. Scagill is interesting although a different era.

That was Jack Murphy TD, wasn't it?

The UPC decided to stand Jack Murphy as its candidate for a seat in the Dublin South Central constituency. The other potential candidate was Sam Nolan, a member of the UPC and the Irish Workers League (the communist party in the 26 counties). The committee sought a meeting with veteran left-republican Peadar O’Donnell to seek his help in raising funds for the UPC to pay for the election deposit. O’Donnell advised the campaign that many republicans who were sympathetic, and would donate money, would not get involved if Nolan was the candidate because of his membership of the IWL. The Soviet invasion of Hungary in 1956 had created a huge backlash against the communist movement in Ireland and their bookshop, New Books on Pearse Street, had been attacked by a crowd of over 3,000.

http://www.theirishstory.com/2010/07/09/the-election-of-jack-murphy-in-1957/

I have come accross an interesting site about the Irish Left and the regimes it supports and has supported The Irish left's support for Cuban communist dictatorship

<snip>

http://markhumphrys.com/unfree.world.html

Ah come on CDfm, you had a problem with my citing James Connolly as a source, and Mark Humphrys is reliable? I see David Norris is on his bad side for his evil pinko commie Gaza supporting ways. :P

MarchDub wrote:

Yes - I agree. Everything should be understood within its historical context. That generation did very well to establish a stable, democratic state.

It has been demonstrated that Ireland emerged in 1939 from the political struggles provoked by the Spanish War with its Labour Movement in shreds and the extreme Right divided and discredited. J.R. Bell has commented 'in retrospect, the Spanish War acted as a scalpel, laying bare the Irish body politic. The relative strength, potential and efficiency of all Irish parties was exposed by the Spanish problem'.6 The Right stood revealed as a body of devout but limited men, incapable of transforming their questionable ideals into reality. And, despite the dedicated and courageous efforts of men like Ryan, O'Donnell and Midgley, the Left could not bridge the historical actuality of the Border in the minds of the working classes.

For the majority of Catholics in the Irish Free State the fate of the R.C. Church in Spain was paramount. But they positively rejected O' Duffy's attempts to take Ireland along the road to Fascism and also rejected Belton's Christian Front's call for a new militant Catholic revival. The collapse of O' Duffy's Irish Brigade and their ignominious return to Ireland proved beyond doubt that any cause, however just, needed more than piety to succeed. The instinctive desire for stability and order was a strong factor in uniting the voters behind de Valera and Fianna Fail. The latter's popular policy of non-intervention in 1936 was repeated in 1939 and was equally acceptable to the Irish people.

http://lisburn.com/books/historical_society/volume10/volume10-9.html

CDfm

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Thats a given but I thought ya meant Soviet money funding in Ireland which could of been interesting. There doesnt seem to have been much they could have funded in Ireland.

I am a bit cynical about this and think "reds under the bed" is a bit simplistic and populist.

IMO socialism saw/sees itself in competition with the church as a welfare provider and peddles its own belief system.

I feel a bit odd posting on this topic in the history forum.

A couple of organisations in Dublin was all- the Unemployed protest committee got a candidate elected to the Dail but he resigned under pressure from McQuaid. The anti communist hysteria that existed at the time saw most of these types of unemployment support organisations tagged with a stigma. Scagill is interesting although a different era.

I don't think either of my grandfathers were ever intimidated by a priest 1916 and war of independence veterans werent or at least should not have been.

I am very amused at some of the stuff I read and doubt McQuaid would have had that type of power over ordinary people. It sounds like an makey upey excuse for not getting elected.

If it is part of a political ideology that they should have been -then nobody told them (my grandparents). People were very aware of the treatment of the Kulaks by the communists. The Irish farmers were just were not buying it.

Its like saying the church closed down Stringfellows Dublin in 2006. Did Frank Duff and the church close Monto or maybe it was a bit more complex than that.

So maybe what the thread should not be about the tabloid version but the competition between socialism and church for the people and the provision of welfare.

It seems odd that this discussion is on the history forum and not in humanities.

Maybe there needs to be a subforum for threads like this because it hardly really fits here.

CDfm

premierlass wrote: »

Ah come on CDfm, you had a problem with my citing James Connolly as a source, and Mark Humphrys is reliable? I see David Norris is on his bad side for his evil pinko commie Gaza supporting ways. :P

Hey, I just said that Connolly was not a reliable historical source because he was a politician and selling something .

That would be the Liam Cosgrave whose Defence Minister was Paddy Donegan, the fascist? I remember it came out that Special Branch created a file on some schoolchildren who wrote a letter to the papers protesting against an action of General Franco's.
http://lisburn.com/books/historical_society/volume10/volume10-9.html

That would have been the same Liam Cosgrave who I believe once refused to start a cabinet meeting because he had not recieved that days edition of the Racing Post.

I never know what to make of Norris , and, I admire him for his work on updating the laws on homosexuality. I don't agree with him on Joyce and think Andy McNab the better writer, having read both.

Was Paddy Donegan a fascist ?

garbanzo

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

john joe mcgirl ??? Communist or republican?

Maybe ye are thinking about Jim Gralton? The "allegedly" communist hall he had in Co Leitrim was a short hop from where my Dad is from. Gralton was the only Irish man to be deported from.....Ireland. Great little country eh ! !

John-Joe McGirl wwas a Ballinamore man.

CDfm

garbanzo wrote: »

Maybe ye are thinking about Jim Gralton? The "allegedly" communist hall he had in Co Leitrim was a short hop from where my Dad is from. Gralton was the only Irish man to be deported from.....Ireland. Great little country eh ! !

Have you got a link to this

premierlass

CDfm wrote: »

Hey, I just said that Connolly was not a reliable historical source because he was a politician and selling something .

That would have been the same Liam Cosgrave who I believe once refused to start a cabinet meeting because he had not recieved that days edition of the Racing Post.

I never know what to make of Norris , and, I admire him for his work on updating the laws on homosexuality. I don't agree with him on Joyce and think Andy McNab the better writer, having read both.

Was Paddy Donegan a fascist ?

Fair enough, but my objection to Humphreys is that the extremity and bitterness of his views makes him unreliable.

Paddy Donegan admitted openly to being a fascist. Not sure how that was reflected in his ministerial role, if at all (aside from the aforementioned incident with the schoolchildren, which occured under his watch).

CDfm

premierlass wrote: »

Fair enough, but my objection to Humphreys is that the extremity and bitterness of his views makes him unreliable.

I have never come across Humphreys before but really is he just linking up to factual information .No matter how distasteful it is, is it accurate ? .

Paddy Donegan admitted openly to being a fascist. Not sure how that was reflected in his ministerial role, if at all (aside from the aforementioned incident with the schoolchildren, which occured under his watch).

He died in 2000 and appeared to be fondly remembered by his colleagues.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2000/11/29/00004.asp

Was he a fascist - I dunno - but Oliver J Flannagan -a party colleague -was an anti-semite

jonniebgood1

CDfm wrote: »

IMO socialism saw/sees itself in competition with the church as a welfare provider and peddles its own belief system.

Was it not the other way around? As the powerful authority the church saw socialism as a threat and tried to snuff it out. It did this successfully in the period mentioned by the OP.

CDfm wrote: »

I am very amused at some of the stuff I read and doubt McQuaid would have had that type of power over ordinary people. It sounds like an makey upey excuse for not getting elected.

Regarding Jack Murphy the influence of McQuaid is not as exagerated as you think

Following the hunger strike Murphy had a meeting with the Archbishop of Dublin, Dr. John Charles McQuaid. McQuaid warned Murphy about the dangers of associating with communists and urged him to break with the UPC. He warned Murphy that Sam Nolan was the most dangerous man in the country and to break his ties with him. http://www.theirishstory.com/2010/07/09/the-election-of-jack-murphy-in-1957/

The UPC decided, as part of the campaign against the removal of food subsidies, to seek a meeting with Dr. McQuaid, the Archbishop of Dublin. Instead, the Archbishop sent for Jack Murphy and a discussion took place. Jack Murphy later informed the committee that the Archbishop had made three main points. Firstly, that, as Archbishop, he could not interfere in political decisions made by the Government. Secondly, that he had authorised work of church property to help create employment. Thirdly, he warned Jack Murphy of the danger of associating with Communists, who were trying to use him.

..................

The next move was that Jack Murphy, for whom the Dublin unemployed and workers generally had campaigned to have elected, announced his resignation as a member of Dáil Éireann. He consulted none of the persons who had worked so hard to secure his election. He resigned from the Dáil in 1958 and in the by-election Fianna Fáil gained the seat.” (Communist Party of Ireland: Outline History, pp.59-60.) http://irishlabour.com/?p=297

CDfm wrote: »

If it is part of a political ideology that they should have been -then nobody told them (my grandparents). People were very aware of the treatment of the Kulaks by the communists. The Irish farmers were just were not buying it.

Its like saying the church closed down Stringfellows Dublin in 2006. Did Frank Duff and the church close Monto or maybe it was a bit more complex than that.

Perhaps this is why (farming) any communist leanings in Ireland have had very small following and support. I dont get your stringfellows comparison?

CDfm wrote: »

It seems odd that this discussion is on the history forum and not in humanities.

Maybe there needs to be a subforum for threads like this because it hardly really fits here.

I would listen to this line of thought but wouldnt really agree at this point. I think it is entirely possible to look at the irish reaction to communism in a historical context. The 'red trials' in the USA were an amazing afront to freedom of expression IMO, particularly in the country that puts itself forward as the leader of the free world. Irelands reaction to this was limited due to the lack of a widespread communist movement but it does seem to have existed in some way in the evidence in parts of this thread.

CDfm

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Was it not the other way around? As the powerful authority the church saw socialism as a threat and tried to snuff it out. It did this successfully in the period mentioned by the OP.

i do not agree with you and do not think there was an effort by the church to snuff out the likes of the labour party, the trade union movement or even sinn fein etc

it simply did not happen and my mother was active in the INTO

did it happen in dan springs kerry constituency or in the corishes wexford constituency - no it did not

if you were to take dr noel browne and the mother and child scheme and clann na poblachta there were plenty of reasons for problems with it and the common denominator was noel brownes arrogance and complete lack of tact which brought down the government

he would have started a fight in a hairdressers and was a bit odd

Regarding Jack Murphy the influence of McQuaid is not as exagerated as you think

maybe my family was different though i think not

i would say the church had some influence and was more a part of peoples lives but lots of the decisions were their own.

that influence did not extend to 1916 and the war of independence so how did it arrive after the british departure. it didnt -it was one of the criteria used to assess political policies by voters.

as for there being an all out attack on Jack Murphy - that is total news to me

Perhaps this is why (farming) any communist leanings in Ireland have had very small following and support. I dont get your stringfellows comparison?

really - if you are pulling in connections why not that as it was close to where monto was.

. I think it is entirely possible to look at the irish reaction to communism in a historical context. The 'red trials' in the USA were an amazing afront to freedom of expression IMO, particularly in the country that puts itself forward as the leader of the free world. Irelands reaction to this was limited due to the lack of a widespread communist movement but it does seem to have existed in some way in the evidence in parts of this thread.

ireland was not the usa and US politics had little influence here

I would listen to this line of thought but wouldnt really agree at this point

i think a few of the regular posters are in to traditional history and do not like the political style threads

i am making an exception here but it is not my bag either -these types of threads have a limited historical value too

garbanzo

CDfm wrote: »

Have you got a link to this

http://www.communistpartyofireland.ie/s-gralton.html

HellsAngel

CDfm wrote: »

That would be the Liam Cosgrave whose Defence Minister was Paddy Donegan, the fascist? I remember it came out that Special Branch created a file on some schoolchildren who wrote a letter to the papers protesting against an action of General Franco's.
http://lisburn.com/books/historical_...olume10-9.html

That would have been the same Liam Cosgrave who I believe once refused to start a cabinet meeting because he had not recieved that days edition of the Racing Post.

I never know what to make of Norris , and, I admire him for his work on updating the laws on homosexuality. I don't agree with him on Joyce and think Andy McNab the better writer, having read both.

Was Paddy Donegan a fascist ?

Not having a go at you but I wouldn't rely on that link of the Lisburn Historical Society. It's basically a cover for the unionist anti nationalist version of Irish history. I know from bad experience over on the history section of Politics.ie, you may as well quote the BNP on the history of rascism.

jonniebgood1

CDfm wrote: »

i do not agree with you and do not think there was an effort by the church to snuff out the likes of the labour party, the trade union movement or even sinn fein etc

it simply did not happen and my mother was active in the INTO

did it happen in dan springs kerry constituency or in the corishes wexford constituency - no it did not

The church had total control in kerry and Wexford already so did not need to exercise its influence in relation to labour movements in these and other rural areas. I think this is accepted and if not a look at the last election results in rural vs. urban areas shows that it is still the case. I mentioned the Jack Murphy case- do you think that the church had no influence in his case. He was seen as having socialist tendancies and was pulled back into line by Charles McQuaid as far as I can read. Perhaps this was only coincidence.

CDfm wrote: »

i think a few of the regular posters are in to traditional history and do not like the political style threads

i am making an exception here but it is not my bag either -these types of threads have a limited historical value too

I take the point but I don't want to stop threads just because of their 'style' unless they are really turning people off the H&H forum. My view would be that this thread for example is dealing with an interesting part of history that is relevent to the forum. If there was a large group of regular posters on the forum who dislike this type of history then I would be open to suggestions of a sub-forum. At the moment though, there does'nt seem to be the numbers for that to be required.

CDfm wrote: »

really - if you are pulling in connections why not that as it was close to where monto was.

ireland was not the usa and US politics had little influence here

I think a comparison of stringfellows in 2006 with anti-communism in 1950's is stretching it a bit but you can expand on it and I will listen. I agree Ireland was not USA but US politics had influence everywhere in the western world and beyond, particularly where communism was even hinted at.

CDfm

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

The church had total control in kerry and Wexford already so did not need to exercise its influence in relation to labour movements in these and other rural areas. I think this is accepted and if not a look at the last election results in rural vs. urban areas shows that it is still the case. I mentioned the Jack Murphy case- do you think that the church had no influence in his case. He was seen as having socialist tendancies and was pulled back into line by Charles McQuaid as far as I can read. Perhaps this was only coincidence.

My Dad is from Wexford and my mother from West Cork. Both areas have stong republican & reveloutionary traditions. Any interfering priest would have had to be brave.

What I am suggesting is that the church influence in lots of areas is exaggerated. You had incidents .


The key area where you had church domination was in education and in the case of socialism the provision of a public good by the private sector but in the case of communism & socialism the provision of any services by the church is anti-ethical. Religion is the opium of the people and all that according to the Marxist beliefs..

A person might believe wish to believe McQuaid influenced the Jack Murphy situation but the more obvious conclusion is that he was beaten by his own political decisions.McQuaid could not change the Fianna Fail Budget. Murphy, an honest guy, became disillusioned and resigned.

It is probably closer to the truth to say that Murphy resigned because he could not achieve the change he wanted and was uneasy at being anyones mouthpiece.

You do know that in private that it is very likely that McQuaid spelled out to Murphy that co-operation between them given his Communist Party support would be like a turkey voting for Christmas. Isn't it interesting that he choose to resign over joining any other political party including the Labour Party.

I think a comparison of stringfellows in 2006 with anti-communism in 1950's is stretching it a bit but you can expand on it and I will listen. I agree Ireland was not USA but US politics had influence everywhere in the western world and beyond, particularly where communism was even hinted at.

No actually - I thought you might want to use it as an example of the power of the church 80 or so years after Monto.

And no, what influence did US politics have on Ireland ?? If anything Ireland was isolated from independence and with the exception of the Marshall Plan in 1948 and entry into the EU I can't see it having any significance.

The UK has had a profound influence on us.

From 73 , the EU has driven much of our economic and social policies .

I take the point but I don't want to stop threads just because of their 'style' unless they are really turning people off the H&H forum. My view would be that this thread for example is dealing with an interesting part of history that is relevent to the forum. If there was a large group of regular posters on the forum who dislike this type of history then I would be open to suggestions of a sub-forum. At the moment though, there does'nt seem to be the numbers for that to be required.

It is my understanding there is. Why not spin a thread of

Hell, when I first tried out the lore threads and speciality topics like executions there was a bit of resistance.

My problem with them is that they get into politics and that gets in the way of the history.

premierlass

CDfm wrote: »

I have never come across Humphreys before but really is he just linking up to factual information .No matter how distasteful it is, is it accurate ? .





He died in 2000 and appeared to be fondly remembered by his colleagues.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2000/11/29/00004.asp

Was he a fascist - I dunno - but Oliver J Flannagan -a party colleague -was an anti-semite

As regards Che Guevara - he might well be. The propaganda war re Cuba is pretty vicious (the deification of Guevara was an amazing propaganda move, but opposition to the regime outside of Cuba isn't exactly lacking, and to be fair the left itself is sharply divided on the matter), and I'd like to have a look at the sources. However, I wouldn't trust him on the Irish supporters of the regime. It seems to be coloured by his dislike of their general political philosophy in some cases.

I was being a little facetious about Paddy Donegan, which is why I removed that part from my post. I think his role in Cearbhall Ó Dálaigh's resignation was worse as far as threats to democracy go, and even in that he behaved better than Liam Cosgrave did in the end.

Oliver J Flanagan was pretty despicable.

Corsendonk

premierlass wrote: »

Oliver J Flanagan was pretty despicable.

Was he the same fellow that campaigned on a motorcycle with the slogan "Here comes Flanagan" on his front and the slogan "There goes Flanagan" on his back?