22000 power sockets update

foggy_lad

From Rail users Ireland this update on the power socket problems on the new DMU trains,

Update on the power socket debacle

So by now we should all know that there are serious problems with the power sockets on the intercity fleet. Irish Rail fitted a new circuit breaker to cover this problem but this doesn't get on well with the existing sockets

1. The sockets are to be replaced

2. Pressing the test button on the current socket is likely to actually cause the power to trip out as it simulates a fault condition which the new circuit breaker is detecting and tripping out the whole coach before the socket in question reacts.

=> DONT PUSH TEST

Thanks to our friends in the Rail Safety Commission for giving us a straight answer that Irish Rail refused to give.

Zoney

I think I may have observed this happening.

foggy_lad

While sockets on some trains may have been fixed or replaced on others it is business/failure as usual. On the 15.35pm from Kilkenny to Heuston in car 22540 the sockets have tripped and there is no staff around to reset it.

Also the train to Galway that left Newbridge at 5.02pm has no power to the sockets! I am in car number 22332.

DWCommuter

Where would we be without RUI and their socket campaign?:rolleyes:

Meaningless muck in the greater scheme of things. Is this the best we can expect? And at a time when so many crucial issues are being ignored.

*sigh*

dowlingm

DWCommuter wrote: »

Where would we be without RUI and their socket campaign?:rolleyes:

Meaningless muck in the greater scheme of things. Is this the best we can expect? And at a time when so many crucial issues are being ignored.

*sigh*

If something is being provided, it should work. End of. Being able to work for extended periods with laptops etc. is one of the few USPs rail has left. Incidentally - what is it you think RUI is ignoring?

(Let me save readers a trip to conflicts of interest - I am not an RUI member but I do post on their public boards)

Losty Dublin

dowlingm wrote: »

If something is being provided, it should work. End of. Being able to work for extended periods with laptops etc. is one of the few USPs rail has left. Incidentally - what is it you think RUI is ignoring?

(Let me save readers a trip to conflicts of interest - I am not an RUI member but I do post on their public boards)

While I agree with you in essense that if there they should work, it's still worth pointing out that they may well have been tripped off, either manually by the train crew or by a punter with faulty plugs/equipment, and yes this can and does happen. If they are off, then raise it with the train guard/host to rectify, which there always will be on board bar suburban trips.

LXFlyer

Losty Dublin wrote: »

While I agree with you in essense that if there they should work, it's still worth pointing out that they may well have been tripped off, either manually by the train crew or by a punter with faulty plugs/equipment, and yes this can and does happen. If they are off, then raise it with the train guard/host to rectify, which there always will be on board bar suburban trips.

Not true - there are large numbers of Intercity trains that are one person operated (i.e. the driver) for significant parts of the journey.

Losty Dublin

lxflyer wrote: »

Not true - there are large numbers of Intercity trains that are one person operated (i.e. the driver) for significant parts of the journey.

Unless the word significant now means all, that means that the train is staffed during the journey as per my post.

LXFlyer

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Unless the word significant now means all, that means that the train is staffed during the journey as per my post.

Not quite losty - your post certainly suggested to me that there is a guard/host on all Intercity journeys for the entire trip, and frankly with the exception of the Cork and Belfast trips there are often long sections of Intercity journeys with no travelling ticket checker on board to ask as you suggest.

foggy_lad

Losty Dublin wrote: »

While I agree with you in essense that if there they should work, it's still worth pointing out that they may well have been tripped off, either manually by the train crew or by a punter with faulty plugs/equipment, and yes this can and does happen. If they are off, then raise it with the train guard/host to rectify, which there always will be on board bar suburban trips.

Blame the poor auld punters as usual! They all have faulty plugs and equipment but surely the idea of having breakers on individual sockets is that when one trips the rest of the punters can still enjoy the wonder of electricity?

I have raised it on a few occasions with seldom seen train staff who were oblivious to the issue and were unable to help!

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Unless the word significant now means all, that means that the train is staffed during the journey as per my post.

An RPU revenue collecter or a ticket checker getting on for ten minutes near the start or end of a journey is not significant and is a major safety concern imho, every train should have a guard/ticket checker who should be barred from entering the drivers cabs at any time. Many trains are carrying several emoployees in the empty drivers cabs but whether they are working or just hitching a ride is anybodys guess but they are rarely seen by punters.

Losty Dublin

lxflyer wrote: »

Not quite losty - your post certainly suggested to me that there is a guard/host on all Intercity journeys for the entire trip, and frankly with the exception of the Cork and Belfast trips there are often long sections of Intercity journeys with no travelling ticket checker on board to ask as you suggest.

Better learn to read properly then

Losty Dublin

foggy_lad wrote: »

Blame the poor auld punters as usual! They all have faulty plugs and equipment but surely the idea of having breakers on individual sockets is that when one trips the rest of the punters can still enjoy the wonder of electricity?

Well if your plug/product is faulty for some reason then it is your fault if the power trips or fails.

foggy lad wrote:

I have raised it on a few occasions with seldom seen train staff who were oblivious to the issue and were unable to help!

I am sure they weren't able to help you. :rolleyes:

foggy lad wrote:

An RPU revenue collecter or a ticket checker getting on for ten minutes near the start or end of a journey is not significant and is a major safety concern imho, every train should have a guard/ticket checker who should be barred from entering the drivers cabs at any time. Many trains are carrying several emoployees in the empty drivers cabs but whether they are working or just hitching a ride is anybodys guess but they are rarely seen by punters.

They are on for a lot more than ten minutes but as usual they can't win with you and your invariably fault ridden trips no matter your mode. When they are on board you alway complain that they are harrassing passengers, when they are not on board it's a safety hazard and when they are traveling in staff areas they are "hitching a ride".

As an aside, I'd love to know how you can see several people in a cab considering that the cab is sealed off and that there is barely room for a driver and one other any time I have been in one. X Ray Specs out of the Beano/Sunday Sport?

LXFlyer

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Better learn to read properly then

Sorry to be pedantic losty but I did read it correctly. Your exact phrase was

If they are off, then raise it with the train guard/host to rectify, which there always will be on board bar suburban trips.

How can I read that in any other way as suggesting that there is a staff member apart from the driver on board for the entire trip on the ICRs?

That is simply not true - I've travelled from Dublin to Roscommon without seeing a checker, from Dublin to Galway without seeing a checker.

There are plenty of Intercity journeys where for large parts of the journey there is no one to ask apart from the driver at a station stop. Trying to suggest otherwise is really a bit much.

foggy_lad

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Well if your plug/product is faulty for some reason then it is your fault if the power trips or fails.

But it should only trip the power on the socket you are using!! The sockets at other seats should work properly! The issue is a known flaw/fault with new equipment bought by Irish Rail which will require the replacement of every socket on every 22000 DMU

I am sure they weren't able to help you. :rolleyes:

They were about as useful as tits on a bull when it came to doing anything about fixing or even knowing about the socket power issue. But otherwise they appeared professional and went about their duties. You suggested raising it with the train guard/host

If they are off, then raise it with the train guard/host to rectify,

Any train staff I have raised this issue with have not known anything about socket power failure or how to rectify it!

They are on for a lot more than ten minutes but as usual they can't win with you and your invariably fault ridden trips no matter your mode. When they are on board you alway complain that they are harrassing passengers, when they are not on board it's a safety hazard and when they are traveling in staff areas they are "hitching a ride".

As an aside, I'd love to know how you can see several people in a cab considering that the cab is sealed off and that there is barely room for a driver and one other any time I have been in one. X Ray Specs out of the Beano/Sunday Sport?

IR staff should of course be able to hitch a ride but should be in the main compartment out of uniform if not working. and these people reading/chatting in drivers cabs are easily seen through the big glass windscreens at either end of most 22000 DMUs. NO X-RAY specs required!

I have not afaik complained about IR staff harrassing passengers but have complained about them exceeding their authority at times! And they may be on board for a bit more than ten minutes on occasion but usually get on at one station and are ready to get off at the next after a quick sweep for tickets, on at Clara and off at Athlone or on at Thurles and off at Templemore etc.

Losty Dublin

lxflyer wrote: »

Sorry to be pedantic losty but I did read it correctly. Your exact phrase was



How can I read that in any other way as suggesting that there is a staff member apart from the driver on board for the entire trip on the ICRs?

That is simply not true - I've travelled from Dublin to Roscommon without seeing a checker, from Dublin to Galway without seeing a checker.

There are plenty of Intercity journeys where for large parts of the journey there is no one to ask apart from the driver at a station stop. Trying to suggest otherwise is really a bit much.

It is true, though. There always a ticket check, guard or host to service the train; nowhere did I say anything about they being on board for a whole trip, you are the one assuming as such.

As for Foggy Lad, there isn't any point in answering you as you will just come up with illogical replies, such as staff not wearing uniforms while traveling :rolleyes:

Solair

Hmm, it sounds like they have an RCD on the socket and another RCD on the circuit which is tripping when people press 'test' on the local RCD

They need to either replace the sockets with non-RCD versions, or put a less sensitive RCD, or one with a delay, upstream.

If all the sockets are fitted with an individual RCD, they shouldn't really even need one upstream.

Anywhere else I've seen sockets on trains, they don't have individual RCDs e.g. in Spain, France or the UK.

You usually do not 'cascade' RCDs like that i.e. putting more than one on a circuit as they do not necessarily trip in the order you'd expect.

That being said, the test button, should not test by shorting live to earth.

Incidetnally, Irish Rail didn't skimp on the specs:

http://www.neweysonline.co.uk/mk-electric-rcd-protected-decorative-socket-unswitched-single-gang-matt-chrome-white-insert-13a/1050078790/ProductInformation.raction

The sockets they use work out at about >£100 each!

LXFlyer

Losty Dublin wrote: »

It is true, though. There always a ticket check, guard or host to service the train; nowhere did I say anything about they being on board for a whole trip, you are the one assuming as such.

As for Foggy Lad, there isn't any point in answering you as you will just come up with illogical replies, such as staff not wearing uniforms while traveling :rolleyes:

I'm not going to argue over semantics, but I would suggest you could choose your phraseology better. "Always on board" suggests the entire journey.

But I would fundamentally disagree about your point - I've travelled on quite a few full journeys where no ticket checker, guard or host were on board the train at any stage - Dublin/Galway is certainly one that I can remember on several occasions.

So it is not the case!

Losty Dublin

lxflyer wrote: »

I'm not going to argue over semantics, but I would suggest you could choose your phraseology better. "Always on board" suggests the entire journey.

I would suggest you learn to read properly and that you take the correct context out of a post in future. It isn't my fault you can't do either

lxflyer wrote: »

But I would fundamentally disagree about your point - I've travelled on quite a few full journeys where no ticket checker, guard or host were on board the train at any stage - Dublin/Galway is certainly one that I can remember on several occasions.

So it is not the case!

No, you traveled on a few trips where you didn't see one for your journey.

dowlingm

Losty

you're being a bit excessively defensive I feel. I travel on VIA Rail Canada's LRC and Renaissance sets about 12 sectors a year in First. The power sockets are always working even though being First there are a lot of people travelling with powered devices. Anecdotal I admit but I don't see complaints of a similar nature on Canadian rail boards.

I cannot accept your premise that user devices are causing the huge numbers of failures seen on the 22K fleet, if for no other reason than by starting a replacement programme IE themselves admit their equipment is not suited to the task. However, it is clear that even where staff could work around the issue, they will not. Even if a set trips in service it could easily be added to the turnaround check list that the driver checks power point breaker status. Instead IE does what they always do - tell people that instead of a workaround now they have to wait for rollout of the technical fix which doesn't require anything from staff. Meanwhile sets roll around for sector after sector with frustrated passengers who chose the service partly for the ability to work on an extended basis.

Transportuser09

Not trying to excuse IÉ, but in away, if someone from ten years ago could see this thread they might think it is funny that we are upset over not having working power sockets to use! Far gone from the days when you had to worry about things like no heat on cravens in the winter time!

foggy_lad

Transportuser09 wrote: »

Not trying to excuse IÉ, but in away, if someone from ten years ago could see this thread they might think it is funny that we are upset over not having working power sockets to use! Far gone from the days when you had to worry about things like no heat on cravens in the winter time!

Would they not be more worried that although millions was spent on these fantastic new trains the people responsible for buying them accepted them and signed for them without fully checking everything worked properly? The smoke alarms in the toilets is another very embarrassing fault. It's more about getting value for money and those getting paid high salaries being accountible when they screw up.

DWCommuter

dowlingm wrote: »

Incidentally - what is it you think RUI is ignoring?

(Let me save readers a trip to conflicts of interest - I am not an RUI member but I do post on their public boards)

Ah come off it! Its about as relevant and effective as a flea fighting an elephant. Considering the amount of discussion here about rail issues that are actually important, its crusade for operating sockets on a train (thats how the ordinary public see it it) is pitiful. RUI is meant to be a passenger representation body and it has absolutely no appeal to ordinary rail passengers. Do you want more proof?? Seriously? I thought this matter was put to bed long ago and even those of us with a particular interest in rail transport, knew it.

RUI = Yet another forum (lightly used) and one individual using it as a platform to boost his ego. This isn't sour grapes, this is fact that is plain for all to see and I really don't mind pointing it out. The general rail travelling public have no interest in it at even the remotest level.

It wasn't even worth picking me up on, despite my opinion on this socket baloney. WAKE UP CALL! - The supposed rail lobby has disappeared amid the real issues facing the network.

dowlingm

DWC: I'll ask the question more directly:

Name one issue you think a body like Rail Users Ireland should be lobbying for and aren't and that there's a good chance they could get a result on.

The power sockets thing might be trivial but they have been harrying IE on stuff like reservations, where people pay money and don't get what's promised, and the ripoffs on parking and suburban fare structures in addition to being on the inside of the smartcard trial. It might not be as much as you want but it isn't nothing from my standpoint.

From my own point of view, I do feel their involvement in the Waterford Rosslare save the rail thing is a distraction and could wind up as much a fiasco for them as IRN's involvement in the Nenagh commuter dog's breakfast.

Victor

Can we leave this thread to be about sockets please?

Solair wrote: »

Incidetnally, Irish Rail didn't skimp on the specs:

http://www.neweysonline.co.uk/mk-electric-rcd-protected-decorative-socket-unswitched-single-gang-matt-chrome-white-insert-13a/1050078790/ProductInformation.raction

The sockets they use work out at about >£100 each!

I'm sure you'll get a discount when you buy them by the tens of thousands.

Transportuser09 wrote: »

Not trying to excuse IÉ, but in away, if someone from ten years ago could see this thread they might think it is funny that we are upset over not having working power sockets to use! Far gone from the days when you had to worry about things like no heat on cravens in the winter time!

While to a certain degree it is s "first world problem", it is (a) a problem (b) on new trains (c) on something that people desire to use and (d) is a seling point for a proportion of passengers (e) if the price above is correct, it would seem they may have spent more than €1m on them.

Solair

It's not being caused by end users' equipment. People are only plugging in laptop chargers and mobile phone chargers.

Also, the design of Irish & UK plugs and sockets is such that it is impossible to contact the pins when you are inserting them, so there is no way that people are causing earth leakage faults.

Also, IT equipment and mobile phone chargers, are generally Class II devices, i.e. do not require earths and are highly unlikely to cause an earth leakage.

If people were plugging in irons, kettles and coffee makers as is often the case in hotels, then you might expect the odd RCD trip due to wet equipment.

The problem is that people are accidentally pressing the 'test' button on the RCD sockets. Somehow, this appears to be tripping the RCD on the distribution panel in the carriage feeding those sockets.

Quite honestly, they would be better off just having a single RCD for each side of the coach or something like that.

The only reason you'd install RCD sockets is to prevent nuisance tripping of the main RCD in a complicated setup where power outages were risky.

All modern (post 1970s) installations in Ireland have RCD protected sockets with an RCD on the panel (fusebox / consumer unit) and you do not really get nuisance trips.

Fitting RCD sockets to every outlet seems like overkill to me in the spec.

I've seen and used sockets on plenty of other trains around Europe and none of them have individual RCDs on every socket.

If there is a ground fault, an RCD would trip out a whole group of sockets, but at least that's behind a door somewhere so that people are not accidentally testing it by mistaking the test button for an on/off switch.

It seems like an over-specification / inappropriate specification for the intended usage and I am sure that it will have to be rectified by the trains' manufacturer as Irish Rail did not install these or design them. They may have requested them, but the electrical engineering design is clearly not quite right.

I would suspect that this will be covered under Mitsui-Rotems guarantee as a teething problem type error.

Even with RCDs fitted on every socket, the test button should not simulate an actual earth fault. It tests the circuitry without actually shorting the live to earth.

They could simply be faulty sockets.

As for the constant problems with the reservations systems on some lines, that is just inexcusable. They need to either get the system repaired, if it's faulty, or start using it properly. It's just sloppy and very annoying and confusing for passengers.

Other companies using this or similar systems have no problems whatsoever.

Lets not forget that Irish Rail used to regularly screw up / ignore reservations with paper tickets. I remember we reserved a coach on an older orange MK3 service to Cork for a school group when I was a teenager and the passengers removed/ignored the reservation tickets on the seats and the train staff told us 'not our problem bud'. It resulted in a whole bunch of teenagers having to sit on the floor the whole way to Cork.

It seems it's an attitude rather than a technological problem.

Incidentally, the reservations seems to work more reliably on the Cork-Dublin service than on others e.g. Sligo.

Victor

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I would suggest you learn to read properly and that you take the correct context out of a post in future. It isn't my fault you can't do either

Behave.

Victor

As I understand it, the carriage (sockets only) RCD will trip with a lower current than the socket RCD, so tripping one socket trips the carriage (sockets only) RCD.

Solair

The test button on an RCD isn't usually setup to create an actual fault to earth.

See diagram:



4 = test button.

Unless the sockets are an odd design of test button, something else is going on.

Victor

I think the problem is the test button trips the carriage RCD, not its own.

Solair

Victor wrote: »

I think the problem is the test button trips the carriage RCD, not its own.

That would be a *VERY* odd design.

There must be something wrong with the sockets themselves in that case.

The repair bill will not fall to Irish Rail anyway as it's a guarantee / teething issue.

foggy_lad

Solair wrote: »

The repair bill will not fall to Irish Rail anyway as it's a guarantee / teething issue.

We can only hope this is the case but this being Ireland and a typically Irish semi-state being involved in the contracts and specifications the taxpayer will probably end up footing the bill.

DWCommuter

foggy_lad wrote: »

We can only hope this is the case but this being Ireland and a typically Irish semi-state being involved in the contracts and specifications the taxpayer will probably end up footing the bill.

In the interest of fairness, we may not end up paying the actual cost, but as usual we will pay the ultimate price.

Solair

I don't see how Irish Rail would end up paying the cost as they did not retrofit these to the trains. They were installed day one by the manufacturer. If they don't work, they need to be replaced / modified so that they do work.

Irish Rail's trains are relatively complex almost one-off designs too. They're not off-the-shelf models, so I would assume you would expect to get some teething problems.

While the components may not be one-off designs, the whole package is.

It does not sound like a particularly complex or difficult problem. It could be a simple case of the wrong delay on an upstream RCD.

If there's a problem with the sockets themselves, then I would assume the socket manufacturer will have to supply Mitsui / Rotem with replacements.

dowlingm

One would hope the new sets don't have this problem - but I'm sure they have a different one of some kind!