Would checking Brake calipers be part of a service

cdsb46

Bought a car recently, and the minute I got it, I had it serviced at the local garage, 6 weeks later my back brakes fail on a hill (ramp in Jervis street car-park ), went to an alternative garage as it was closer to where I was. When checked it was found the both back calibres were totally worn and in turn the brake pads were in pieces. Was told by the mechanic that fixed the brakes that this problem would have being going on for quite some time, and that the previous garage should have checked during service. When I went back to the garage where I got the service they refused the suggestion and said that calibres would never be checked during a service, so the problem was nothing to do with them. This garage has only recently obtained SIMI accreditation so before I lodge a complaint to them i want to know who's right and do i have a case?

mickdw

Dont waste a stamp on SIMI in any case as they are pretty much a garage protection group.
In my opinion, you dont have a case anyway. Many car manufacturers now recommend that the dealers just check pad thickness without taking the wheels off the car by way of a measuring gauge so there would not be any real inspection of the brakes in many garages as long as there was sufficient pad wear remaining.

You bought a used car. The simple act of having it serviced does not instantly make it roadworthy and neither is it guaranteed to find all faults present especially if you did not direct the garage to any issues you possibly felt needed looking at. You might have said - Handbrake is not great, can you look into it, for example.

Neilw

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Neilw

Are you sure it's the calipers that is causing the problem? Are they sticking or something because the don't tend to wear like pads or discs.

What car is it btw?

cdsb46

Neilw wrote: »

Are you sure it's the calipers that is causing the problem? Are they sticking or something because the don't tend to wear like pads or discs.

What car is it btw?

Was defo the brake calibres, the mechanic that fixed them showed them to me, it's a Seat Toledo 02 , it's being going well apart from that, just felt a bit cheated that i paid huge amount for a service, then for something to go wrong weeks later

cdsb46

cdsb46 wrote: »

........... When checked it was found the both back calibres were totally worn and in turn the brake pads were in pieces. ..........

Brake pads in pieces??? WFT does that mean?

Nissan doctor

All brake componants should be checked during a normal service so if they were in that state, you should be asking questions of the previous garage.


Having said that, I remember a few years ago having a passat in the garage with a sticking caliper piston and sliders which caused the inside pad the wear down to the metal while the outside one was ok. The customer was furious and called the VW garage that had serviced it one week previously and when they got no-where, they put me on the phone. I told him the problem and said there is no way this could have been missed when the wheels were off, he said the wheels weren't off!
I said the car was serviced wasn't it? How do you service a car without removing the wheels and checking the brakes? His come back..........'oh your trained in VW servicing are you?':rolleyes::rolleyes:

Nissan doctor

mickdw wrote: »

Dont waste a stamp on SIMI in any case as they are pretty much a garage protection group.
In my opinion, you dont have a case anyway. Many car manufacturers now recommend that the dealers just check pad thickness without taking the wheels off the car by way of a measuring gauge so there would not be any real inspection of the brakes in many garages as long as there was sufficient pad wear remaining.

You bought a used car. The simple act of having it serviced does not instantly make it roadworthy and neither is it guaranteed to find all faults present especially if you did not direct the garage to any issues you possibly felt needed looking at. You might have said - Handbrake is not great, can you look into it, for example.

I can't agree I'm afraid. The garage/mechanics are the trained experts, not the customer. Most drivers don't notice wear or things wrong with their car as generally, things wear gradually. To have had your car in for a service and for a fault like the above not to have been noticed is not acceptable IMO and the blame lies entirely at the hands of the 'experts' who inspected the car last.

I could never allow myself to sign off on a job unless I knew that everything, especially safety critical systems, were in perfect working order or the customer was made aware of any issues. I serviced an 09 fiesta the other day with less the 20k on it, now I could have(99% rightly)assumed that there would be no need to remove the rear wheels with such a new/low mileage car....but then I wouldn't have found the steel brake line, bent and damaged (road debris presumably) and rubbing on the inside of the tyre. Assumption is the mother of all fcuk ups!

mickdw

Nissan doctor wrote: »

All brake componants should be checked during a normal service so if they were in that state, you should be asking questions of the previous garage.


Having said that, I remember a few years ago having a passat in the garage with a sticking caliper piston and sliders which caused the inside pad the wear down to the metal while the outside one was ok. The customer was furious and called the VW garage that had serviced it one week previously and when they got no-where, they put me on the phone. I told him the problem and said there is no way this could have been missed when the wheels were off, he said the wheels weren't off!
I said the car was serviced wasn't it? How do you service a car without removing the wheels and checking the brakes? His come back..........'oh your trained in VW servicing are you?':rolleyes::rolleyes:

But they dont take the wheels off at the main dealers - vw certainly. They use a guage through the wheel which obviously leaves the issue of incorrect reading of the pad wear if they are not wearing evenly. Even more worrying, the vw workshop manual used by dealers says - In cases where aftermarket wheels are used which prevent the use of the wear guage, use a flashlight to assess wear without removing wheel.
I agree that wheels should come off but nowadays its not the case. They do tend to be on the cautious side though - suggesting pad change too soon really. This means they get away with less labour intensive service checks, then more pad replacements than needed in general and more profit for them.

Nissan doctor

And I wonder how the measure disk thickness and inspect brake lines/fittings etc properly?

And people still think they get a better service at a main dealers!:rolleyes: Its no wonder that the worst mechanics that have ever been through my place have been ex dealer.

El Guapo!

Nissan Doctor is right. It should've been checked. Of course its faster and easier to just look through the wheel at the brake pads but its just pure laziness. I don't know how many times I've taken off a wheel to discover that the inside pad is worn down to the metal even though the outside one is fine.

mickdw

Nissan doctor wrote: »

I can't agree I'm afraid. The garage/mechanics are the trained experts, not the customer. Most drivers don't notice wear or things wrong with their car as generally, things wear gradually. To have had your car in for a service and for a fault like the above not to have been noticed is not acceptable IMO and the blame lies entirely at the hands of the 'experts' who inspected the car last.

Do we know exactly what the issue was? I dont think so. We know a pad was 'in pieces' and they say the calipers were at fault. best assumption so is that sticking caliper wore out one pad and this was missed. Seeing as the main dealer procedure would also miss this, the garage will not be held responsible.
My point was that you have to draw the line somewhere with servicing. The OP wasnt happy to have a problem after having a service carried out. This seemed to imply that a service would be a cure all. That cannot be the case. If the OP had headgasket failure after the service, he/she would have started the same thread saying that they felt cheated to have such a problem after a service, likewise any failure from thermostat to ecu failure. That was my point really.

Nissan doctor

mickdw wrote: »

Do we know exactly what the issue was? I dont think so. We know a pad was 'in pieces' and they say the calipers were at fault. best assumption so is that sticking caliper wore out one pad and this was missed. Seeing as the main dealer procedure would also miss this, the garage will not be held responsible.
My point was that you have to draw the line somewhere with servicing. The OP wasnt happy to have a problem after having a service carried out. This seemed to imply that a service would be a cure all. That cannot be the case. If the OP had headgasket failure after the service, he/she would have started the same thread saying that they felt cheated to have such a problem after a service, likewise any failure from thermostat to ecu failure. That was my point really.

A headgasket is not an service item, brakes are.
A headgasket is not a safety critical item, brakes are!


The point of a service is to change the periodically due items and to find and highlight any issues the car may have.
VAG rear calipers are prone to torn seals leading to sticking, so any mechanic worth his position would know this and pay special attention when servicing a VAG....especially, you would assume, VAG dealer mechanics!:rolleyes:

mickdw

Nissan doctor wrote: »

And I wonder how the measure disk thickness and inspect brake lines/fittings etc properly?

And people still think they get a better service at a main dealers!:rolleyes: Its no wonder that the worst mechanics that have ever been through my place have been ex dealer.

We all know its better to take the wheels off. They check disc thickness with the guage again. Only 1mm of wear allowable on each face of the disc on my car according to their workshop manual - again IMO replacing discs a little too early to prevent any errors from this quick servicing.
BMW insist on new discs at each pad change I believe on all models over 3 series (open to correction on that though)
I would assume there is no proper checking of the flexi brake lines etc at the main dealers unless its decided pads need changing.

mickdw

Im talking from the point of view of the OP. They said they felt cheated to have a (any) problem after a service.


here is audi service manual instruction for brake checks on A5.

Nissan doctor

The OP isn't complaining that they shouldn't have 'any' problem after a service, they are complaining that they had a problem with a major safety componant which is a standard service check item and because the garage who serviced it said that calipers are not checked as part of a service! This is rubbish and runs right into neglegance on the part of the garage IMO.

I know how VAG test the brakes and I don't care how big a company they are, that is, without question, a wholly innacurate and incomplete way of checking that the braking system of a car is in perfect working order.

IMO its just VAG servicing based on the assumption that there could never be anything more then worn pads wrong with the NASA quality brakes used on VAGs:rolleyes:

I would bet if the OP had an accident due to a brake fault not noticed by the garage who serviced it(there has been no mention that it was a main dealer) that the outcome of any court case would not go well for the garage!

cdsb46

Nissan doctor wrote: »

The OP isn't complaining that they shouldn't have 'any' problem after a service, they are complaining that they had a problem with a major safety componant which is a standard service check item and because the garage who serviced it said that calipers are not checked as part of a service! This is rubbish and runs right into neglegance on the part of the garage IMO.

I know how VAG test the brakes and I don't care how big a company they are, that is, without question, a wholly innacurate and incomplete way of checking that the braking system of a car is in perfect working order.

IMO its just VAG servicing based on the assumption that there could never be anything more then worn pads wrong with the NASA quality brakes used on VAGs:rolleyes:

I would bet if the OP had an accident due to a brake fault not noticed by the garage who serviced it(there has been no mention that it was a main dealer) that the outcome of any court case would not go well for the garage!

I'm glad that most of you find that I wasn't overreacting when complaining about the service, but I would like to know who I should complain to, the garage doesn't care what I say, they have pretty much told me to f*** off, it wasn't a main dealer so can complain to the overall franchise, so who else can I?, its scary that ya can go in to get your car serviced and according to this mechanic checking brakes calibres aren't a priority, i'm so glad that there wasn't anyone behind me in the car park when it rolled back :mad:

Plug

cdsb46 wrote: »

I'm glad that most of you find that I wasn't overreacting when complaining about the service, but I would like to know who I should complain to, the garage doesn't care what I say, they have pretty much told me to f*** off, it wasn't a main dealer so can complain to the overall franchise, so who else can I?, its scary that ya can go in to get your car serviced and according to this mechanic checking brakes calibres aren't a priority, i'm so glad that there wasn't anyone behind me in the car park when it rolled back :mad:

Im guessing he only checked the outside pad thickness. A lot of the time its harder to see the inside pads so you have to take off the wheel. He probably saw a nice thick pad on the outside and assumed the inside was grand. Personally I don't take off the wheels for every service, only when I need to, lets say if cant see the inside pads, uneven pad wear or if I see the handbrake mechanism is not sitting back in its resting place(hand brake mechanism problem). As for measuring a disk all manufacturers are stingy with there tolerances. A feel your you fingers along with a light can tell you if there is a big lip on your disk or not. Your problem was either a sticking caliper or the slides were stuck. If the pads went that quick there was obvious something up when the first crowd looked at it.

Esel

It's all down to the calibre of the caliper / calliper at the end of the day....

Nissan doctor

On the very subject of the discussion in this thread.

I had a mercedes slk200k in today, customer complaining of initially poor brake performance and in recent days a severe vibration from the brake pedal and the whole car.

Upon carfully negotiating my way around the complicated task of removing the wheel:rolleyes: a full brake inspection found that the inside piston of both rear calipers where rusted and seized solid causing extreme heat and the pad to actually fuse to the disk!

This is how the disk looked from the outside with 5mm(well within spec) on the outside pad.



And this was the inside of the disk, with a disitergrated pad on the inside! You can see the bits of brake pad stuck to the disk..




This car was serviced in a main mercedes dealer 4 months ago and the service sheet stated that the rear brakes are ok!:rolleyes:

the culture of deference

Nissan doctor wrote: »

On the very subject of the discussion in this thread.

I had a mercedes slk200k in today, customer complaining of initially poor brake performance and in recent days a severe vibration from the brake pedal and the whole car.


This car was serviced in a main mercedes dealer 4 months ago and the service sheet stated that the rear brakes are ok!:rolleyes:

That is shocking. Well done. What are the chances that a bad garage would have just changed the pads and sent her off.

I have never seen pads fused to discs before.
Name and shame the garage.

Maybe the mods could send the RSA or SIMI a copy of your post and get them to highlight this.

Nissan doctor

the culture of deference wrote: »

That is shocking. Well done. What are the chances that a bad garage would have just changed the pads and sent her off.

I have never seen pads fused to discs before.
Name and shame the garage.

Maybe the mods could send the RSA or SIMI a copy of your post and get them to highlight this.

I recon the disks where getting so hot that at some stage when the car stopped at traffic lights or the shops or whatever that the pad fused to the disk, then when the car was driven off the face of the pad was pulled off by the disk.


My point is not to name or shame the garage who checked this car specifically though. Its to make the point about what a poor practice 'checking' brakes visually through a wheel is.

According to merc/vw and, from the sounds of things, many other dealers/garages, those brakes will have been checked properly following their own guidlines and those same guidlines allow brakes like the pics above and the OP's car to be passed as safe for the road!

the culture of deference

the culture of deference wrote: »

That is shocking. Well done. What are the chances that a bad garage would have just changed the pads and sent her off.

.

Slim to none in fairness, the inside pad would have been post holocaustical in appearance me thinks.

YouTookMyName

Any photos of the pads Nissan Doctor?

nogoodnamesleft

Christ cant get over the state of the disk!

I recon most places wouldnt remove the wheel in order to perform scheduled maintainance of the car. Sure some places cant be bothered to lubricate door hinges etc which is a service item.

Not having a go at the OP. But I was always thought to park with the car in gear so that in the unlikely event of brake failure (e.g. handbrake cable snapping) that the car will remain in situ.

Nissan doctor

YouTookMyName wrote: »

Any photos of the pads Nissan Doctor?

I couldn't really get a pic as the pad retaining pin was also completly rusted into the caliper so I couldn't get the pads out:eek:

GTE

Had a similar experience with a VW garage, probably under SIMI too.
No work done to the car, just a check to see what needed doing. They said the car was good for another 10,000 miles aside from an oil service which I did myself.
The rear brakes ended up being in horrible horrible condition.

They tried to fob me off but eventually I got to VW Europe and after that the garage was willing to listen. They offered me half off parts but I had lost faith in them.

Recently a family member went to the garage and he has received 5 star treatment. Every minor thing is accounted for. Pity they didnt fix it all at once like asked.

"Oh, you wanted us to fix the mirror adjuster?" :rolleyes:

YouTookMyName

Nissan doctor wrote: »

I couldn't really get a pic as the pad retaining pin was also completly rusted into the caliper so I couldn't get the pads out:eek:

Thats mental. Must have been years before it was changed last. Shocking state of miss-service.




Thanks to whoever changed the thread title.