Irish Mammies

Overheal

Don't know where else to put this. Not a TLL topic and AH would have a field day. But I got to know, and would like a discussion on what is up with what can only be called the Irish Mammy Syndrome. You read a lot of evidence of it in PI, and you even see it first hand, that the culture in Irish societies leans on Women to nurture and even baby or smother their sons and be less nurturing of their daughters. Which can at times lead to situations arising where a daughter gets little or no support when she's struggling while a son gets all the support he needs while he's working and spending his money irresponsibly. I've seen some of the end results too. like the 18 year old who will eat nothing but choco rice cereal or the 12 year old who still whines like an infant if they pass the ice cream stand without making a purchase. Or the 30 something that lives up on the 3rd floor, has a job but pays no rent and spends all that extra income sitting at home smoking copious amounts of weed with his meat and potatoes delivered upstairs to him.

Why? And what can change what is inherently a gender equality issue thats rooted in the home.

prinz

Overheal wrote: »

Why? And what can change what is inherently a gender equality issue thats rooted in the home.

The people can change. There is definitely an 'Irish mammy' thing going on, but it's not every Irish mammy. There was no Irish mammy in my house that's for sure. It's a bit of a predefined role that people seem to adopt, I've even seen people spend their teens and early 20's laughing at the notion, then turn around when they have kids of their own and fulfill it to a tee. Both genders are to blame for it IMO, a lot of men expect their girlfriends/wives to take over the mammy role, and a lot of women let them away with it and go along with it. Both are to blame.

There is also a tendency for the opposite to also be true, the Irish mammy and her sons, and the Irish daddy and his daddy's girl(s).

ceadaoin.

A woman I know here in London grew up with a typical irish mammy. Even now when her brothers come to visit (she still lives at home) they get steak for dinner while her and her mam get something basic. Or if they drop in unexpectedly, the mother gives the dinner she prepared to the brothers and the women go without!

I don't think it's normal for her to have never lived out of home either. At least the brothers have moved out. It's like the girls of such households are raised to believe that the only role for them is to look after the men and sure if they're not married then there's no point in moving out of the family home?

She doesn't see anything wrong with this and in fact mollycoddles her own son to the point that he can't even do his own washing at 25 and apparently has no intentions of moving out either.

Luckily these sorts of attitudes seem to by dying out.

nicechick!

Overheal wrote: »

Don't know where else to put this. Not a TLL topic and AH would have a field day. But I got to know, and would like a discussion on what is up with what can only be called the Irish Mammy Syndrome. You read a lot of evidence of it in PI, and you even see it first hand, that the culture in Irish societies leans on Women to nurture and even baby or smother their sons and be less nurturing of their daughters. Which can at times lead to situations arising where a daughter gets little or no support when she's struggling while a son gets all the support he needs while he's working and spending his money irresponsibly. I've seen some of the end results too. like the 18 year old who will eat nothing but choco rice cereal or the 12 year old who still whines like an infant if they pass the ice cream stand without making a purchase. Or the 30 something that lives up on the 3rd floor, has a job but pays no rent and spends all that extra income sitting at home smoking copious amounts of weed with his meat and potatoes delivered upstairs to him.

Why? And what can change what is inherently a gender equality issue thats rooted in the home.

My mammy is just like this though its shocking!! I definitely have some ''mammy issues'' though the same applies to my sisters at least we have each other to have the occasional rant, many of my close friends also have similar issues. I have learned the hard way I now NEVER ask my mother for any emotional, support etc as when I have or had been in need she let me down miserably (slightly bitter) I thank god that I have sisters who love me well including a mammy in a weird sort of way! The irony is she takes so called pride in the successful, independent daughters she has raised though if only she knew we just don't involve her as we wouldn't actually get the support! I often wondered if we hadn't achieved anything in life how she'd behave or react to us.

We'll make that change I think the future of parenting has already changed or changing I suppose for women that have faced this or have some grasp or knowledge of a situation they will try there best to make sure that this shouldn't or won't happen.

I think studying from home has helped many young men as they couldn't rely on there mothers particularly those living away from home and the influence of house sharing etc though hmm some girls naturally take on the role of mothers in some houses!

ilovesleep

I am the daughter of a mother who has this Irish mammy syndrome and I can identify with what Overheal wrote.

There are 5 of us, 4 of us very close in age - two males, two females - late 20s to early 30s.

My mother always had a sexist attitude and it goes way back to childhood and her sexist attitude remains to this day.

As Overheal wrote, finances is a big problem. My brothers go to work, earn a wage and nothing is expected of them. They go out and drink their money at weekends, often getting so drunk that they cause hassle and also grief at home for my mother being loud, feckless and careless. My mother is not happy with this but she fails to see that she is actively encouraging the behaviour by not providing them with any responsiblities for these men. She has a good moan to me regularly about their behaviour in which I tell her this and she gets offensive and says something: well maybe someday you will understand if you have your own kids. She takes this opportunity to have a dig in at my single bridet joans lifestyle, as if I am a failure for not getting shacked up and having kids (little does she know I am very happy being single and have a regular sexual partner - she would have a fit if she found out).

Not only this she is supporting them financially by doing grocery shopping for them, paying bills. She is in arrears with bills but she won't ask them for help. She turns to me regularly for 'loans' but I have put my foot down there during the past couple of months. I have seen my brothers in the past providing money, and she refuses to take it off them.

I am not living at home. Thank goodness. I moved out last year. For a long time I was happy helping at home. I thought my money is better off going into the family and not into a landlords pocket. When living at home I was expected to pay my way with rent, bill money and my own food shop whereas the lads got away free. There was hell to pay if I was late. Whereas she gave my brothers an easy ride. Well I packed my bags last year and left because it wasn't right.

Regarding chores my mother is run of her feet doing everything, but she won't let the lads help with anything unless if its diy tasks.

My mum regularly says so much sexist remarks. I don't know where to begin with this.

Overheal wrote: »

Why? And what can change what is inherently a gender equality issue thats rooted in the home.

Why?

I just don't know. There is an old outdated perception that women belong in the home. Perhaps this plays a part. But my mother is not old fashioned.

Perhaps it is something to do with some sort of a fear of dying lonely.

When my mam married (now separated), she married into my dads locality, dad remained close to his family. My mam living quite a distance away from her family, had very little contact with hers. Same thing happened with her sisters. They went their own way with marriage. My granny, my mams mam was pretty much on her own for some time before she passed away except for the family that remained close by.
My other granny, dads mam, has never been alone and had her sons rallying around her like forever.

Maybe perhaps, mam is afraid that I marry, move away and start a family of my own, and she wants to keep her sons close by because of the old perception if women, on marriage move to their husbands locality. She is doing this by not being demanding and giving responsiblities to them and also having a softer attitude with the males in fear that they pack up and leave. Maybe she has a sick, twisted idea of: why bother nuturing daughters because they are going to disobey the family by marrying into another or something. Push them away because they are going to leave anyways.

This made up theory could be true to some degree because such mothers find partners of their sons a threat.

How can it be changed? I have no idea.

Computer Sci

Overheal wrote: »

Don't know where else to put this. Not a TLL topic and AH would have a field day. But I got to know, and would like a discussion on what is up with what can only be called the Irish Mammy Syndrome. You read a lot of evidence of it in PI, and you even see it first hand, that the culture in Irish societies leans on Women to nurture and even baby or smother their sons and be less nurturing of their daughters. Which can at times lead to situations arising where a daughter gets little or no support when she's struggling while a son gets all the support he needs while he's working and spending his money irresponsibly. I've seen some of the end results too. like the 18 year old who will eat nothing but choco rice cereal or the 12 year old who still whines like an infant if they pass the ice cream stand without making a purchase. Or the 30 something that lives up on the 3rd floor, has a job but pays no rent and spends all that extra income sitting at home smoking copious amounts of weed with his meat and potatoes delivered upstairs to him.

Why? And what can change what is inherently a gender equality issue thats rooted in the home.

There are two things I have been thinking about on this topic,

(a)If what you say is true, then it would be ridiculous for mothers not to treat their daughters well, given that those mothers would have been girls and daughters themselves at one stage. Children of both genders should be loved and looked after equally.

(b)Technically shouldn’t parents, and mothers in particular be more distanced, and perhaps even less affectionate for their male offspring given that those boys will have to become men one day. How are they supposed to man the **** up and become a responsible man and adult when their mother is constantly mollycoddling the, both mentally and physically? Irish mothers should treat their sons as men in the making, and not little boys, because they are affectively softening up the next generation. Wouldn't girls be more benefit of more love and attention given that they are more vunerable in life, both mentally and physically? To be honest, I think dads also need to put their foot in a lot of the time and tell these mothers to get a grip, and let their sons go as soon as possible, both mentally and physically, as that is what males need to do in this world.

CJhaughey

I don't agree with the post above.
Since when were women mentally and physically more vulnerable?
Thats a pretty broad brushstroke right there.
The Irish Mammy syndrome (IMS) is not confined to Ireland but is less commonly encountered in other developed countries.
I think it may have its roots in agrarian culture where men worked hard physically and needed extra calories to do heavy physical labour.
That said I think the first time I saw men in their 30's living at home and being cooked regular lunches and dinners by their mammies, I did find it a tad strange.
When they are in their 40's even more so!
The little prince syndrome is also common in China, probably because of the one child policy.

Computer Sci

CJhaughey wrote: »

I don't agree with the post above.
Since when were women mentally and physically more vulnerable?
Thats a pretty broad brushstroke right there.
The Irish Mammy syndrome (IMS) is not confined to Ireland but is less commonly encountered in other developed countries.
I think it may have its roots in agrarian culture where men worked hard physically and needed extra calories to do heavy physical labour.
That said I think the first time I saw men in their 30's living at home and being cooked regular lunches and dinners by their mammies, I did find it a tad strange.
When they are in their 40's even more so!
The little prince syndrome is also common in China, probably because of the one child policy.

They are more vulnerable in life than men as men are physically stronger and can usually deal with mental issues, and are expected to on their own.

Mr. Presentable

Not an Irish thing. In Italy they say the same about mothers and sons. In New York the Jewish community say likewise about their's.

Honey-ec

ilovesleep wrote: »

But my mother is not old fashioned.

Sorry, but she sounds extremely old-fashioned to me.

Computer Sci wrote: »

men are physically stronger and can usually deal with mental issues

There are swathes of suicidologists out there who would disagree with that statement. And would possibly even argue that your whole "men should be tough and hard" ethos is one of the reasons that many men find it extremely hard to deal with depression - they think they'll be seen as "weak".

CJhaughey wrote: »

I think it may have its roots in agrarian culture.

I'd be inclined to agree with you there, even in Ireland this seems to be far more a rural than urban thing. I used to go out with a guy from Mallow and I HATED visiting his parents because they were so old-fashioned like this. His mother had three bachelor brothers who still lived together in their parental home and she used to go over three or four times a week to clean the house, do all their washing, cook for them and do their food shopping, as none of them ever bothered learning how to drive. This whole idea of waiting hand & foot on the males of your family is just to antithetical to the way I was raised that it actually boggles my brain.

Ickle Magoo

I remember having moved here for only a few months and a new friend was round having coffee. At 11.30 or so she jumped up and said she had to go, her brother [a 35 yr old guy who made a good living and had no learning or other difficulties] would be expecting his dinner. She must have seen my the quizzical look pass over my face and by way of definition she qualified it with "Mam's away for a few days"..."Would he not be able to make his own?" I asked completely perplexed - "Oh no, I don't mind"...

Upon which this single mother got her little son, put him in the buggy and walked a mile or so to cook a dinner for a grown man because his mammy was on holiday - and was incapable of doing any more that sitting there and watching her do it. Mind-boggling. :eek:

I remember the first family christmas with my in-laws [all sons], I offered to help with dinner and myself and the mother-in-law duly got up at some unearthly hour to peel and baste and whatever - come dinner time, the plates were loaded and sent out and when we went through with ours, we we facing an empty table with empty plates and cutlery left askew with spilt wine and jelly, the lot - and they'd all scoffed their dinners at a million miles an hour and buggered off to watch the telly - minus one very embarrassed looking husband. My mother-in-law looked crushed and I duly read them the riot act! :pac:

To their credit they haven't done it since and we do now joke about it.

I think barring waiting for the inevitable generational differences to take effect that's the only way things are going to change, if people lay down expectations and boundaries and either refuse to be mothered or refuse to do the mothering.

CathyMoran

My late mother was one. I have a daughter who is over 5 weeks old and a 15 month old son. I am very conscious of trying to treat both of them fairly, I hope that I am a good mother, at the moment all I tend to do with them apart from looking after them is hug and play with them.

CJhaughey

OT but there is a couple of things here, Boys mature later than girls, mentally even more so.
Being tough on young boys is actually more likely to backfire than be productive. They need nuturing more than being told to toughen the F**k up.
Studies have shown that this faux macho culture is actually more likely to generate a man that cannot show his emotions or communicate effectively when he needs help.
This can lead to the unfortunate position where suicide is seen as a way out.
because in the mind of the person the concept of asking for help or advice is seen as being weak
In Australia there is a campaign to try and reverse this exact type of behaviour.
Look at how women cope with stress and problems, most will attempt to talk it out with friends or siblings, there are exceptions but generally women vocalise their problems much better then men.
I think this is a separate issue to the IMS situation.

Morag

If at 18 when your child legally becomes an adult they can not cook a dinner for themselves, clean a toilet and do their own washing then you have failed as a parent.
It doesn't matter the gender of the child, if you have reared them in such a manner that you have handicapped them by not teaching the basic skills needed to look after themsevles then you have failed as a parent.

midlandsmissus

Yeah my brother, late 20s, gets his dinner made for him every time He comes home, I'm expected to make my own. I remember being nonplussed one time when I came home from college at the wknd, was getting ready to go out, and was asked to iron a pair of trousers for him! Think he was 25 at the time! Told her where to go on that 1. I think Irish mammys do so much for their sons because they think the sons just wont do it themselves, whereas women are capable in the home.

midlandsmissus

Also I went out with a guy from abroad, who grew up doing household chores, did laundry, cooking and ironing no bother to him. I think my brother would faint if he had to turn on the washing machine. Tbh I think my poor mother does so much for him is that he would be wandering round not eating right in creased clothes if she didnt do it for him. I had another Irish ex who used to joke about doing his ironing badly just so his mother would do it for him. And another guy I used to work with came in and complained that he had to do all his own washing and ironing now he had moved out at home to live with his girlfriend at age 30! He was lamenting the good days he had with his mother! Is it society to blame? I find Irish society and especially rural society to be very sexist lately, to be blunt there is no equality between the sexes.

prinz

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I think barring waiting for the inevitable generational differences to take effect that's the only way things are going to change, if people lay down expectations and boundaries and either refuse to be mothered or refuse to do the mothering.

This is it. Somebody needs to stand up and break the cycle. Unfortunately for a guy who has been mollycoddled like this he is less likely IMO to break the cycle, than for a woman to just say no. I think it's interesting though how people repeat this cycle even when they have spoken against it at some point. I have noted that the male friends I have who have been waited on hand and foot at home, they seem to have settled down with girlfriends who fulfill the same role, and after say 10 years (university years and most of the 20's) of doing things for themselves it's back to square one when they end up with a girl who steps neatly into the role of mammy.

It's one thing I never understood. I had an Irish mammy but it was clear from a very early age that she wasn't going to be doing everything, but more than that she took the time to actually teach me stuff, cooking, cleaning, ironing, washing, sewing, etc. By the time I was a teenager I was doing a lot of this stuff from myself or the family all the time. It was just natural. Now the thought of leaving something for my mother or OH to do wouldn't feel right at all.

pickarooney

This kind of thing should really have disappeared within a generation. By rights no adult Irish woman should buy into this bull**** of creating and facilitating these socially retarded sons. Anyone equipped with an education, some self-worth and a bit of cop-on should know better than to perpetuate this kind of nonsense which does nobody, but nobody any good.

It's a bit reductive to refer to it as Irish Mammy Syndrome in my view as this carry-on is both anathema to the majority of sensible Irish people and prevalent in many societies worldwide (Italian mothers, Jewish mothers, Corsican mothers, Arab mothers...) I see it as the passive-agressive equivalent of the domineering matriarch who also crops up in all societies.

midlandsmissus

I remember joking with my mam about it, and she said sagely, 'ah wait till you have a son', and I had this moment of horror, despite all this logical thinking and clearheadedness I have now, will I forget it all and morph into an irish mammy monster the minute I have a son! Nooo! Haha it reminds me of the fr.ted episode where fr.ted is shaming the women for leaving their husbands alone, ' remember when your husband tried to do the washing up mrs. Tiernan...and he burnt down the house'.

donfers

lots of anecdotal evidence here being transmuted into generalised gender rules, never a good sign in any thread

for example "I once went out with a guy who asked me to do the ironing and he was 25 = men of Ireland can't do chores in the house and we must wait a generation for them to do their bit"

I can't say I have noticed this phenomenon much, all my group of male friends cook and clean for themselves or share those duties with their partners - however because of that anecdotal evidence I would not dare to suddenly assume that this means all Irish men are domestic gods, just like any other country in the world you get your fair share of lazy types in both genders, of deadbeats in both genders, of those who depend on others to do stuff for them in both genders.

The Irish mammy thing is certainly not exclusive to Ireland, I noticed far worse and far more blatant examples of sexism in the home environment having lived in Spain and Italy for a bit. Sometimes mothers overmother and sons take advantage of that, both are to blame, but as long as they're both happy then so be it, if a girlfriend can't tolerate a guy like that then end the relationship or offer an ultimatum. Everybody has a choice in this scenario, there is nothing insidious at play here but if a few people want to use this phenomenon to have a pop at this mysteriously domestically uselessmonolithic pool of Irish men then go ahead, there are numerous examples of responsibilities being abdicated across the gender divide if we want to play that game.

My point therefore is that while focusing in on a specific gender for an apparent specific deficiency in doing their domestic chores may make some of us feel better, it ignores the reality which is that these issues are not specific to one gender and that the parameters required for rendering such melodramtic posturing any bit credible are notoriously difficult to measure.

A completely wild guess of mine would suggest that this phemomen(not being very experienced at cooking and cleaning) occurs at a higher frequency than the mean amongst males from a rural background with large families than other groups but I have no evidence for that assumption other than my own prejudices i.e. like almost all posts on here, I am merely venting albeit in a more dispassionate manner.

CJhaughey

^^ Donfers any chance you could take your massive monolithic rant and punctuate it a bit? Please?:D
I am using a teeny weeny 10" netbook and my eyes are bleeding.;)

donfers

CJhaughey wrote: »

^^ Donfers any chance you could take your massive monolithic rant and punctuate it a bit? Please?:D
I am using a teeny weeny 10" netbook and my eyes are bleeding.;)

fair point, i do tend to ramble on.

basically all I am saying is i don't think the irish mammy/useless lazy son thing is as bad as some people seem to think it is, as ever i may be wrong and i am only describing the truth before me which may be differ from that before others.

Catari Jaguar

Computer Sci wrote: »

They are more vulnerable in life than men as men....can usually deal with mental issues

The high suicide rate amongst young males says other wise...

bronte

I sometimes come home from London where I live and "The mammy" will expect that I do laundry/iron shirts/clean up after two grown men that live in my house.
My younger brother is cooked for almost daily. If I put up any resistance at all I am accused of "not wanting to help her". So I peel the spuds to keep her happy and then piss off back to London relieved.
She constantly complains about the work she has to do, but does it anyway.
Is it a martyr type thing?
I love her so much, it's her upbringing really...but this stuff has a major effect on my choice in boyfriend. If I get a sniff of someone wanting a "mammy" type girlfriend I'm out of there so fast.
She argues that men can't do domestic things, yet I have many male friends perfectly capable of looking after themselves.

I've learned to challenge Mam on it now, in a jokey way...but to be honest, it's too ingrained in her.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

I've never really come across many lads my age who would be mollycoddled in this way, most are perfectly capable of looking after themselves.

Wibbs

I reckon there's another aspect to this. Control by the titular Irish mammy. By doing everything for the sons she passively aggressively controls the sons. I've found 9 times outa 10 this type control the Irish Daddy too. By controlling the kitchen and the bedroom in the case of the husband she has much leverage. The daughters she as much as expects them to control their own boyfriends/husbands/sons by her example. Ditto for the Spanish and Italian and Jewish Mammies. Before women had much power in society, especially in rural areas, this would have been a good if unhealthy way to get some.

Noodleworm

I think you see it with teenagers of both genders, mothers doing schoolwork, picking college courses, going to open days and calling up the CAO happens a lot every year.
Im extremely grateful to come he and have a family meal cooked for me, or asked if I want a cup of tea, but I make up for it my doing my own food shopping, laundry, and running around the house providing tech support and sandwiches.

Caraville

My dad had a typical Irish Mammy, and he married one too- my mother. He's never really had to cook a dinner & I have never seen him use an iron. He does the gardening and that kind of thing but the roles are still quite traditional with my parents. In fairness Mam isn't as bad as my grandmother was, but still my brother would have been far more sheltered than me or my sisters.

Nanny was unreal though- the men never had to do any housework and always got to choose the best seats in the house first. She grew up in a different time though, and as she got older she did relax those "rules" a bit.

Something I do notice though is that as my friends and I get older, the girls are better for doing things with their mothers and bringing them places etc. I think a lot of mothers do as much as they do for their sons because it gives them a purpose in their lives because they know a day will come when there's going to be another woman in their son's life. My maternal grandmother used to have a saying: "Your daughter is your daughter for all of your life, but your son is only your son until he finds a wife".

Bottle_of_Smoke

Another aspect to this is that I think the Irish mammy will often mistreat the fitter siblings and wrap the useless kid up in cotton wool.

I don't know why but maybe Irish females would be less likely to be useless, and this is giving the impression Irish mammy always favours male children. That seems a mad generalisation, but I think in some ways females develop earlier psychologically. This could lead to them showing more independence, and a useless brother sponging off it.

Was portayed very well in malcolm in the middle. Malcolm(male) upset because his useless brother Rhys was getting more attention and easier treatment. The mother said "of course I treat him better, I know you will be fine, but he's a mess so I have to help him"

You see it a lot in the PI forum, siblings treated unfairly even though they put in the most effort in the family home. I would suspect they are actually treated unfairly because they put in more effort.

K-9

Caraville wrote: »

My dad had a typical Irish Mammy, and he married one too- my mother. He's never really had to cook a dinner & I have never seen him use an iron. He does the gardening and that kind of thing but the roles are still quite traditional with my parents. In fairness Mam isn't as bad as my grandmother was, but still my brother would have been far more sheltered than me or my sisters.

Nanny was unreal though- the men never had to do any housework and always got to choose the best seats in the house first. She grew up in a different time though, and as she got older she did relax those "rules" a bit.

Something I do notice though is that as my friends and I get older, the girls are better for doing things with their mothers and bringing them places etc. I think a lot of mothers do as much as they do for their sons because it gives them a purpose in their lives because they know a day will come when there's going to be another woman in their son's life. My maternal grandmother used to have a saying: "Your daughter is your daughter for all of your life, but your son is only your son until he finds a wife".

Reminds me of an ex, one of her uncles still went to his Mammy for dinner after work even though he was married! :eek:

On the other side her mother would have been a bit like the Irish Mammy Wibbs describes, very dominant and would use those traits as a means of dominance in the household and yes, those traits seemed to have been inherited by the daughters.

It's quite common here in Donegal or the border areas for men in their 40's or even 30's up, to have the attitude of having the dinner ready when he comes home and many the dutiful woman to oblige too. I'd have been brought up to be independent from a young age so it came as quite a shock when I moved back here after a few years away. I'd forgotten it's so prevalent.

Schnooks

When we were growing up, I suppose it was a traditional house where my father was concerned i.e. he worked, came home and his dinner was on the table and his clothes were ironed etc. That did change in later years and he used to do things like hoovering and laundry after he retired. He was a useless cook, so that was not required of him They both did all the outside work together.

However for us kids, things were different. There were 3 boys and 1 girl. For as long as I can remember, the boys had to help with the washing up, hoovering etc. As we got older, my sister would usually help my Mam with the dinner, and we (including Dad) would clear up after. She also taught us how to iron. I have been doing my own ironing since I was 12 or so. I and my brothers can all cook and look after ourselves. Perhaps it was because we all have an interest in cooking. Not so fond of housework though, but can still do it :mad: Nearly all my friends and lads I work with can throw some sort of meal together, and some of them are worse than women the way they talk about cooking and recipes, even when out drinking

I look at my 5 y.o. boy and he loves to bake with his Mam, who is a pastry chef. I know he will grow up knowing how to do stuff around the house, because we will make sure of it.

I think the days of lads not being able to wipe their own a*se are largely gone in Ireland. Most lads these days WANT to know how to cook tasty food, as they are mostly out in rented accomodation working/studying away from home. And of course, being a good cook has the added bonus of impressing the laydeeeeeez (or so I'm told)

But I have seen alot of examples over the years of the spoilt son and the put-upon daughter so I understand where people are coming from and it still exists. But not to anythign like the extent it did when alot of us were growing up in the 70s and 80s.

SugarHigh

Wibbs wrote: »

I reckon there's another aspect to this. Control by the titular Irish mammy. By doing everything for the sons she passively aggressively controls the sons. I've found 9 times outa 10 this type control the Irish Daddy too. By controlling the kitchen and the bedroom in the case of the husband she has much leverage. The daughters she as much as expects them to control their own boyfriends/husbands/sons by her example. Ditto for the Spanish and Italian and Jewish Mammies. Before women had much power in society, especially in rural areas, this would have been a good if unhealthy way to get some.

Excellent post. Pretty much the topic of every Sean O'Casey play I've seen as well. Family life was completely controlled by the women.

Wibbs

IME in rural more traditional areas, not just the family life either S. I got an inkling of this early on by an odd route. As a kid I'd go fishing with my dad in the west of Ireland and I remember him telling me that if you wanted permission to cross land to fish a river, it was generally much better to get permission from the woman of the house/area. It carried more weight.

I've seen this background power in other countries, particularly among the Latins. While the men may appear all macho and holding all the cards, strong women actually hold more in reality. The men just think they do. They do on the surface alright, but the undercurrent can be quite different. I'd even gauge a culture for this effect by how macho the men are. The more overtly macho, the more likely the Mammy and the Wife exerts control in the background.

In my experience anyway I think it's more a thing with "catholic" cultures. You see less of it in "protestant" cultures. Maybe it's more overt in the former? Though the catholic faith and traditions while being more oppressive to and confusing for women also has a lot more iconic women than in other christian denominations. I mean catholics pray more to the virgin Mary than to Jesus, so maybe that's it? The strong unattainable mother figure?

In my own personal life I've gone out with proto "Irish Mammies" a couple of times and a proto "Italian Mammy" in one case and it was all about the passive aggressive control. Quite hard to spot at the time TBH. Particularly with the Italian version as it wasn't as familiar. But when I did spot it, it gave me the heebiejeebies. Then I watched guys I grew up with replace their Irish mammy with a wife cut from the same cloth and the heebiejeebies went through the bloody roof. To the degree that today I'm sensitive to the warning signs and if I even get the barest whiff of "Mammyism" I'm giving Usain Bolt a run for his money.

eirn

I get a little freaked sometimes that my mother has inadvertenly trained me as an Irish Mammy to be. I can be a bit of a doormat.
I suppose when I lived at home I saw it less as tending the men in my family, and more just helping my mam, who tried to do everything herself.

Kind of hit home one day when I cooked dinner, and brought it to my (24 year old, graduate) brother who was watching tv in bed. I hadn't peeled the potatoes and he whinged about having to do everythig himself - he was being serious.

But as another poster said, she also did much more for my sister than me when we were growing up too, she had problems with depression and was very anti-social. She needed much more help and support than me, and I get that, but she was completely wrapped up in cotton wool, to the point where she became almost incapable of properly taking care of herself, and certainly not able to function as an independent adult.

Mrs Garth Brooks

I have been home from college for the summer and i thought being away for the past year might have changed something at home but it hasn't.

I have three brothers. Two of them are 30 and 31. Younger brother is 21. All at home who doesn't pay anything towards their keep. My mother does everything for them. Her whole life revolves around minding them. She buys their food, not only does she make their dinner but she gets up in the morning to make their lunches for work. How hard is it to throw two slices of bread together with a slice of ham in the middle? She makes their bed, packs their swimming bag. She does their washing. Clothes ironed and hung up. She has even payed for them to see the doctor if they get sick, their medicine, payed for them to get work done at the dentist.

Two of them are working getting between €400 - €500 a week each. The younger brother is on €100 dole. She doesn't take anything of them, while she's struggling on the dole and extra €100 with a job. So the lads gets their money and do as they wish with it.
Last year all three of them went of to australia for 6 weeks. One of them went twice, another time over xmas for 2 months. Even the younger brother on the dole was able to afford a car a couple of weeks ago. And to get it insured.

While my mother struggles on 288 a week supporting four people on it.

When i was living at home with my sister last year, she relied on us to pay €50 a week, which would have brought up her income to 388 a week. That was great money to be supporting three lads and herself. She was bleeding us dry of every penney at every opportunity she could get. €50 a week, we both bought our own food, made out our own dinners, as soon as a bill arrived through the door she expected us to cough up and often to pay more on the bill than dividing it by the number of people in the house.

My sister moved out last year. I moved out to go back to college. So it was herself and three boys. I thought my mother being down €100 euro a week, she might put her foot down and demand something. She hasn't. She struggles. She has asked my sister for loans to pay the bills. And yet doesn't take money of the lads.

Im back for the summer and im regretting it. My mother doesn't give a flying fck what my circumstances are. Im on the dole, 188 a week. I have college again in september and i dont know where the money is going to come from yet. Does my mother care, no. Im female so i should pay my way, 50 euro a week, i buy my own food also. She even expects me to pay for the petrol for my younger brother's car if he brings us shopping. By the end of the week, i have feck all left. My money is going towards the lads and im pretty damn p!ssed off. My mother even payed for diesel money for my older brother last week. This is the brother who works. I had a car for a few years before going back to college and it was my responsibility. She has never once threw me money to take her shopping. While three lads gets it so easy at home and gets away with it.

Why? Its because i wasn't born with a penis. She has very backward views on life. I was telling her, she shouldn't be doing it for them. Where she then goes to me, they should find a wife. Its not a wife's job either. I really do pity the women they end up with. No one will ever be good enough for them.

CerebralCortex

HardLuckWoman wrote: »

I have been home from college for the summer and i thought being away for the past year might have changed something at home but it hasn't.

I have three brothers. Two of them are 30 and 31. Younger brother is 21. All at home who doesn't pay anything towards their keep. My mother does everything for them. Her whole life revolves around minding them. She buys their food, not only does she make their dinner but she gets up in the morning to make their lunches for work. How hard is it to throw two slices of bread together with a slice of ham in the middle? She makes their bed, packs their swimming bag. She does their washing. Clothes ironed and hung up. She has even payed for them to see the doctor if they get sick, their medicine, payed for them to get work done at the dentist.

Two of them are working getting between €400 - €500 a week each. The younger brother is on €100 dole. She doesn't take anything of them, while she's struggling on the dole and extra €100 with a job. So the lads gets their money and do as they wish with it.
Last year all three of them went of to australia for 6 weeks. One of them went twice, another time over xmas for 2 months. Even the younger brother on the dole was able to afford a car a couple of weeks ago. And to get it insured.

While my mother struggles on 288 a week supporting four people on it.

When i was living at home with my sister last year, she relied on us to pay €50 a week, which would have brought up her income to 388 a week. That was great money to be supporting three lads and herself. She was bleeding us dry of every penney at every opportunity she could get. €50 a week, we both bought our own food, made out our own dinners, as soon as a bill arrived through the door she expected us to cough up and often to pay more on the bill than dividing it by the number of people in the house.

My sister moved out last year. I moved out to go back to college. So it was herself and three boys. I thought my mother being down €100 euro a week, she might put her foot down and demand something. She hasn't. She struggles. She has asked my sister for loans to pay the bills. And yet doesn't take money of the lads.

Im back for the summer and im regretting it. My mother doesn't give a flying fck what my circumstances are. Im on the dole, 188 a week. I have college again in september and i dont know where the money is going to come from yet. Does my mother care, no. Im female so i should pay my way, 50 euro a week, i buy my own food also. She even expects me to pay for the petrol for my younger brother's car if he brings us shopping. By the end of the week, i have feck all left. My money is going towards the lads and im pretty damn p!ssed off. My mother even payed for diesel money for my older brother last week. This is the brother who works. I had a car for a few years before going back to college and it was my responsibility. She has never once threw me money to take her shopping. While three lads gets it so easy at home and gets away with it.

Why? Its because i wasn't born with a penis. She has very backward views on life. I was telling her, she shouldn't be doing it for them. Where she then goes to me, they should find a wife. Its not a wife's job either. I really do pity the women they end up with. No one will ever be good enough for them.

We should do mother swap. My auld wan would murder them! Seriously are your brothers sociopaths, because what they're doing to your mother is nothing short of cruel.