Ironman CDA Nutrition plan

bryangiggsy

Here is Doug Macleans Race fueling plan from Ironman CDA with QT2systems in Boston. Doug was the first age grouper home in this years race

http://rundmcracing.com/2011/07/08/ironman-coeur-dalene-race-fueling-plan/


Cait's plans are second to none (in my opinion)

TFBubendorfer

99g CHO per hour. That's a lot. Most people would not be able to digest that much CHO.

Plans that work for anyone else might be a starting point but you still have to work out what works for you.

jeffontour

That sure is a lot of grub! I've not raced on the bike much but I do find it easier to fuel on it than on the run but that's still a feat in itself shovelling all that in without causing problems in the digestive system.

Half the battle in longer endurance events is fueling and if you can't find a strategy that suits you then you are in Fe a world of pain, this guy seems to be very sorted.

bryangiggsy

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

99g CHO per hour. That's a lot. Most people would not be able to digest that much CHO.

Plans that work for anyone else might be a starting point but you still have to work out what works for you.

jeffontour wrote: »

That sure is a lot of grub! I've not raced on the bike much but I do find it easier to fuel on it than on the run but that's still a feat in itself shovelling all that in without causing problems in the digestive system.

Half the battle in longer endurance events is fueling and if you can't find a strategy that suits you then you are in Fe a world of pain, this guy seems to be very sorted.

I had this conversation with Tunney after my Ironman last year.He also thought it was too much food. I used Cait's QT2 fueling plan for it and it worked to a tee for me.Had no GI issues at all. Different strokes for different folks i understand.

tunney

bryangiggsy wrote: »

I had this conversation with Tunney after my Ironman last year.He also thought it was too much food. I used Cait's QT2 fueling plan for it and it worked to a tee for me.Had no GI issues at all. Different strokes for different folks i understand.

There is a direct correlation to CHO absorption and IM speed.

Some freaks can absorb 600kcal an hour. Most will sh1t themselves on 400kcal.

Different strokes.

jeffontour

tunney wrote: »

Some freaks can absorb 600kcal an hour. Most will sh1t themselves on 400kcal.

Outside of the ability to absorb without the craps maintaining the discipline to eat at those levels whilst pushing the pace is a real challenge.

bryangiggsy have you used the plan more than once when competing and how have you dealt with the mental challenge of shoveling the food in? Any periods where you dropped from the plan and noticed a related drop in performance?

RedB

tunney wrote: »

There is a direct correlation to CHO absorption and IM speed.

Some freaks can absorb 600kcal an hour. Most will sh1t themselves on 400kcal.

Different strokes.

Chicken and egg story. Which comes first?

I wonder is it something you can train your system for

tunney

RedB wrote: »

Chicken and egg story. Which comes first?

I wonder is it something you can train your system for

Why would it be chicken and egg?

RedB

tunney wrote: »

Why would it be chicken and egg?

A direct correlation between CHO absorption and IM speed. Can you go faster because you can absorb CHO better or is your metabolism 'faster' because you've trained enough to race faster?

tunney

RedB wrote: »

A direct correlation between CHO absorption and IM speed. Can you go faster because you can absorb CHO better or is your metabolism 'faster' because you've trained enough to race faster?

Mainly the former. You can train fat utilization and aid cho absorption through smart fuel selection but mainly cho absorption isn't trainable.

Zuppy

There is an individual (bodyweight and age/ metabolism etc) limit to CHO uptake by the digestive system while under duress (endurance exercise).

I can't remember any figures at the moment but dependant on volumes and delivery systems for the CHO, I have a figure of about 500kcal/hr for the 75kg late 20's male in my head. (pure guess / random numbers probably). I figure since it is harder to fuel running due to impact I, myself find 350kcal/hr works for me.

As for a correlation between CHO intake and speed, more fuel for going faster will only work till you hit your limit for GI distress.

More likely is a better topped up CHO tank in the body pre race would equate faster ironman times. Higher quality of CHO and longer on the better quality before having to eat into the inferior peri race carbs.

Added to this a balanced race nutrition plan to keep stores topped up. Probably would be more benefit than the massive dose of CHO during the race

tunney

ZuppyLurk wrote: »

There is an individual (bodyweight and age/ metabolism etc) limit to CHO uptake by the digestive system while under duress (endurance exercise).

Why do you see a link between weight and the ability to absorb calories? I know that most articles and books say "x grams cho per kg" but nothing serious I have read talks about absorption rates in terms of body mass.

ZuppyLurk wrote: »

I can't remember any figures at the moment but dependant on volumes and delivery systems for the CHO, I have a figure of about 500kcal/hr for the 75kg late 20's male in my head. (pure guess / random numbers probably). I figure since it is harder to fuel running due to impact I, myself find 350kcal/hr works for me.

Reseach has shown most peoples max absorption rates being 280-320kcal. Anything about that is fantastic and some can go to 600kcal but thats not the norm.

ZuppyLurk wrote: »

As for a correlation between CHO intake and speed, more fuel for going faster will only work till you hit your limit for GI distress.

This was my point. If you have worked on your fat oxidisation and have that at a killer level the differences in performances comes from the ability to absorb more calories from CHO than the next guy before hitting GI issues.

ZuppyLurk wrote: »

More likely is a better topped up CHO tank in the body pre race would equate faster ironman times. Higher quality of CHO and longer on the better quality before having to eat into the inferior peri race carbs.
[/QUOTE

Define quality of carbs?

ZuppyLurk wrote: »

Added to this a balanced race nutrition plan to keep stores topped up. Probably would be more benefit than the massive dose of CHO during the race

Nice to have you back, been a while since a decent discussion.

Zuppy

Hey Tunney!
Discussion maybe, but you have me on my weak discipline, nutrition.

Of course it has to be body weight dependant. A 50kg athlete versus a 90kg padded six pack (all other factors being the same ie height etc) need very different kcal intake for the same level of output. But the biggest factor in metabolism and kcal expenditure is your Basal metabolic rate BMR and this is not only representative of body weight (body surface area = weight and height) but age and sex as well if you use either Harris or katch et al to work it out.

Also body weight and size has a bearing on intestine length in the individual. This I am presuming (without looking for evidence which means I am probably wrong) that longer GI tract give more time for absorption.

The 500kcal/hr intestinal absorption rate was the ideal under ideal conditions hence why the practical level is usually thought to be your numbers 280-320kcal/hr. Not everything we eat/ drink during the event will be absorbed. Some food stuffs block others and if the CHO is not in a ready accessible form then the body will 'pass' while its under duress. It is one of the reasons your advised to avoid too much fructose as a carb during an event or not to take fibre mid event.

So while you might take in 600kcal/hr and your super fast gastric emptying times might prevent GI distress, I would love to see how much of the 600kcal per hour you can actually absorb.

My thought on quality of Carb is simple. If you have eaten a good nutritious food source and the body has taken it and stored it in a readily accessible form ie in the liver before the event. This has to be a better quality energy source than a dextrose drink ingested while at mile 15 of the marathon. First the dextrose is easily digested but still needs to be processed by the body while under duress (the digestive system does not work optimally while your mid event), the blood system (transport of CHO internally) has competing demands (oxygen transport to muscles) which are prioritized. You can never (esp running events) meet and balance the energy demands by CHO taken during the race, all you are doing is topping up the tank and maintain a level blood sugar level. As you slowly slip into a negative energy balance.
So this is the rational in carb-ing up before the event and not trying to do it all during the event. Ergo the 'quality' of carb, and apologies if I am using incorrect terms.

My present thought/ queries are on,

If you have a really fast metabolism, would this not burn through the kcal's faster than the benefits of faster absorption? (at the very upper limits). And if the goal is a faster metabolism during the event, why are people not eating more chillies during the race? :-)

The debate on protein based energy systems peri endurance event seems to have died away. So does the protein synthesis work or not???


[for those of you who do not know me, I have absolutely no background in nutrition. So feel free to trash my thoughts. And sorry for the disjointed nature of my post, hazard of a scattered mind ]

tunney

Point on the length of the intenstine is a good one and I hadn't considered that.

I don't think the goal is a faster metabolism but rather to absorb more calories from cho and to be able to use more from fat. More calories availble means more work can be done. i.e. go faster.

The whole protein thing fell by the way side alright, no research to back it up. I'm running my 4:1 drink down and won't replace it!

Zuppy

I think that the protein as a fuel was a good theory and I am sure it probably works to a degree but the speed of absorption is a lot slower than CHO and Fats. And it can't provide the same amount of kcal as fats (gram for gram or speed of uptake). So fats as a secondary fuel source makes more sense.

I just wonder when the body turns to cannibalising the muscles for fuel, if the ingestion of protein as a race fuel would delay the cannibalisation?!??
This would be a very moot point and only of interest to scientists and silly ultrarunners. (or very untrained ironmen).

I plan to hang on to my 4:1 purely for the summer fruits flavour. I hate lemon and lime flavours and everything else is orange.

TFBubendorfer

ZuppyLurk wrote: »

I think that the protein as a fuel was a good theory and I am sure it probably works to a degree but the speed of absorption is a lot slower than CHO and Fats.

The whole idea of the 4:1 was that the CHO gets absorbed faster that way than pure CHO. I was under the impression that there was some real science behind this, certainly the people behind the Accelerate sports drink claimed as much.

I still tend to have a glass of slim fast after hard workouts. It just happens to have that 4:1 ratio and is significantly cheaper than any sports drink.

Tunney, where did you hear that there is no science behind the 4:1 absorption claim?

Zuppy

I presumed there was science as no company starts a line of products on a whim.

It is that despite the products and the massive usage in general population over test products in studies, very little science has hit main stream media. And some of the stuff I have read have had uneven control groups. Uneven in terms of kcals or volume.

When I get a chance I will look deeper.

tunney

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

The whole idea of the 4:1 was that the CHO gets absorbed faster that way than pure CHO. I was under the impression that there was some real science behind this, certainly the people behind the Accelerate sports drink claimed as much.

What I read was that it allowed MORE to be absorbed per hour, it didn't affect the absorption speed.

The science behind it has been disproved - it was, as far as I can remember funded by high5. The new research is by more reputable sources.

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I still tend to have a glass of slim fast after hard workouts. It just happens to have that 4:1 ratio and is significantly cheaper than any sports drink.

Tunney, where did you hear that there is no science behind the 4:1 absorption claim?

I'll see can I did out the paper but to be honest I am snowed under and allegedly I have to start training for an Ironman. Not been on the bike in a few months and the IM is Sunday week.

Maybe if I take some 4:1 I will be fine

(I'll fish it out and post it up just give me a few days).

bryangiggsy

jeffontour wrote: »

bryangiggsy have you used the plan more than once when competing and how have you dealt with the mental challenge of shoveling the food in? Any periods where you dropped from the plan and noticed a related drop in performance?

Onlu ysed the plan for IM Frankfurt last year. No problem shoveling the food in. I prob did not hit the 600 per hour but was very close. Getting the food in on the bike was a lot easier than the run. I remember coming into Frankfurt off the bike and thinking i felt great and ready to run. Was pumped. On the run i noticed a slight drop in performance on the last 10k as the caffeinated gels ran out. I had such a bad experience on the run in LP that after training nutrition was the next most important factor to have a good race.

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I still tend to have a glass of slim fast after hard workouts. It just happens to have that 4:1 ratio and is significantly cheaper than any sports drink.

Slim fast interesting. Am always looking for less expensive alternatives for the 4:1... At present i use endurox or high five...
Whats the taste like?

tunney wrote: »

I'll see can I did out the paper but to be honest I am snowed under and allegedly I have to start training for an Ironman. Not been on the bike in a few months and the IM is Sunday week.

Are you joking about not been on the bike with frankfurt next week?

tunney

bryangiggsy wrote: »

Are you joking about not been on the bike with frankfurt next week?

One long run done. Albeit neither long nor a run(for me). 24km and 5:05 per km.
Do a ride (4 hours) tomorrow and a swim Sunday.

How bad can it be?

bryangiggsy

tunney wrote: »

One long run done. Albeit neither long nor a run(for me). 24km and 5:05 per km.
Do a ride (4 hours) tomorrow and a swim Sunday.

How bad can it be?

At this stage of the game what time is your fitness level predicting? I had u down for a Kona slot with your performance in Austria last year. Has life got in the way?

TFBubendorfer

bryangiggsy wrote: »

Slim fast interesting. Am always looking for less expensive alternatives for the 4:1... At present i use endurox or high five...
Whats the taste like?

They have several different tastes, I hated the strawberry but vanilla, chocolate and coffee are all good. Entirely my own opinion, of course.

I buy the powder, not the ready-made stuff which is magnitudes more expensive. Tesco tend to have it on a buy-one-get-one-free offer regularly, which is when I stock up. 4 tins last me about a year.

Coach McMillan, of the famous running calculator, has an article on his site where he recommends slim fast as recovery drink as well, so I'm not the only one.

tunney

bryangiggsy wrote: »

At this stage of the game what time is your fitness level predicting? I had u down for a Kona slot with your performance in Austria last year. Has life got in the way?

Swim - 2:10 per km (non wetsuit, detrained non childhood swimmer) 1:22
Bike - 180 watts normalised, should be around 32kph, 5:40 or there abouts
Run - fat prick who hasn't run. Best case 5:15 per km, 3:45

10:47

What happened to me?
I'm getting that alot recently. My wife is worried about what happened me, she wants me to do the marathon and 5ks and 10ks to get motivation back. A number of things contributed - I could blame work, I could blame the little one, I could blame illness, I could blame the realisation that I could not go to Kona (#2 arriving) but if I am honest I am the only one to blame and I could have worked through everything and gotten a fast time. When I made it clear to the wife that one of two things will happen post Frankfurt (1) I will go back to my playstation, cider drinking, lazy ways that had me at 15.5stone years ago or (2) I will go for a run the day after Frankfurt and come back with a bang. 50/50

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Hopefully it will be number 2, nobody likes a 15.5 stone cider drinking playstation coach potatoe;)

bryangiggsy

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

They have several different tastes, I hated the strawberry but vanilla, chocolate and coffee are all good. Entirely my own opinion, of course.

I buy the powder, not the ready-made stuff which is magnitudes more expensive. Tesco tend to have it on a buy-one-get-one-free offer regularly, which is when I stock up. 4 tins last me about a year.

Must try it out . Cheers.

tunney wrote: »

Swim - 2:10 per km (non wetsuit, detrained non childhood swimmer) 1:22
Bike - 180 watts normalised, should be around 32kph, 5:40 or there abouts
Run - fat prick who hasn't run. Best case 5:15 per km, 3:45

10:47

What happened to me?
I'm getting that alot recently. My wife is worried about what happened me, she wants me to do the marathon and 5ks and 10ks to get motivation back. A number of things contributed - I could blame work, I could blame the little one, I could blame illness, I could blame the realisation that I could not go to Kona (#2 arriving) but if I am honest I am the only one to blame and I could have worked through everything and gotten a fast time. When I made it clear to the wife that one of two things will happen post Frankfurt (1) I will go back to my playstation, cider drinking, lazy ways that had me at 15.5stone years ago or (2) I will go for a run the day after Frankfurt and come back with a bang. 50/50

Hopefully its the latter. Being a parent is a constant battle. And i understand how you lose your mojo. I have 2 under the age of 3.5 yrs and if i dont do my training in the early am (and i mean early)then training that day is a write off. Add in sleepless nights and coughs and colds & sicknesses makes it even tougher.
Fatherhood is a massive commitment and affects fitness in a big away especially when things aint going well. One must soldier on though for the sake of the sport.

Guys i used to race who are beating me now are not better than me...they are just fitter at this point in time. You can only go as fast as your fitness allows

I hope to change this :cool:

PS am on the Frankfurt train again for 2012 if u re invent yourself!

hunnymonster

+1 on the slimfast. Needs to be cold though so pint if milk is my first choice out and about.

@Tunney & Bryan; unless you break your tailbone pushing them out, you don't get to blame the little ones for lack of training

bryangiggsy

hunnymonster wrote: »

+1 on the slimfast. Needs to be cold though so pint if milk is my first choice out and about.

@Tunney & Bryan; unless you break your tailbone pushing them out, you don't get to blame the little ones for lack of training

Would never blame anything on my kids. They come 1st always.:) In fact I just thought my 3 yr old daughter how to dive in. No fear at 3.

Zuppy

I am re learning the joy of fatherhood. Four weeks later I am still not training and I really don't care enough to get out the door. :-).

The problem usually is you have to train smarter without having the time or recovery. Just as well I don't waste time with online fora. LOL

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

ZuppyLurk wrote: »

I am re learning the joy of fatherhood. Four weeks later I am still not training and I really don't care enough to get out the door. :-).

The problem usually is you have to train smarter without having the time or recovery. Just as well I don't waste time with online fora. LOL

This is key and one area i will be working hard on for next year especially with 4 young kids:eek:

tunney

hunnymonster wrote: »

+1 on the slimfast. Needs to be cold though so pint if milk is my first choice out and about.

@Tunney & Bryan; unless you break your tailbone pushing them out, you don't get to blame the little ones for lack of training

oh where is my little violin? childbirth this, pregnancy that.
Aoibhe was teething recently and it was hell and Glenda came out with "Aoibhe, its bad for you but its worse for us, we have to listen to it". She had it said and she realised the implications for sympathy from there on.

bryangiggsy wrote: »

Would never blame anything on my kids. They come 1st always.:) In fact I just thought my 3 yr old daughter how to dive in. No fear at 3.

Never blame the little one either.

ZuppyLurk wrote: »

I am re learning the joy of fatherhood. Four weeks later I am still not training and I really don't care enough to get out the door. :-).

The problem usually is you have to train smarter without having the time or recovery. Just as well I don't waste time with online fora. LOL

Thats the thing you don't want to leave them!! Trying to find a reasonably priced running buggy...........

Zuppy

Well training is better than the alternative.... Fat daddy!!

bryangiggsy

ZuppyLurk wrote: »

I am re learning the joy of fatherhood. Four weeks later I am still not training and I really don't care enough to get out the door. :-).

The problem usually is you have to train smarter without having the time or recovery. Just as well I don't waste time with online fora. LOL

I think recovery is the part I lose out on most. Lie ins forget about it. Naps after the long weekend cycle are a no no. It's all hands on deck till they go the bed. My recovery is the six to seven (a good night) sleep I get a night.

However for frankfurt last year I arrived on the thurs and slept for about ten hours each night along with a couple of naps which helped big time which just highlights how important rest is.

Zuppy

Ok, question for you all.

I understand that your supposed to take at least 200ml of water per gel. Depending on the gel. I had always presumed this was to prevent sugar overload. Help absorbsion. Etc.

I recently read that CHO over time/ endurace events, forms long chain sugar chains in the intestine which draws in water/ fluid. How true is this???