Did the Irish Grizzly spawn the Polar Bear

Birdnuts

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=9bdbf8da2b0317314416e170842e9c6f&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politics.ie%2Fforum%2Fenvironment%2F164667-polar-bears-irish.html&v=1&libid=1310058516106&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.guardian.co.uk%2Fscience%2F2011%2Fjul%2F07%2Fpolar-bear-ancestors-ireland&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politics.ie%2Fforum%2Fenvironment%2F&title=Polar%20Bears%20are%20Irish&txt=Polar%20bear%20ancestors%20came%20from%20Ireland%20%7C%20Science%20%7C%20The%20Guardian

Recent evidence from caves in Cork and Leitrim suggest the Irish Brown Bear survived well after the last ice-age and existed as recently as 500 BC:eek: - sadly this also suggests the hand of man was responsible for its ultimate extinction:(

Calochortus

I think this article has quite serious implications for how we deal with climate change, hybridisation and conservation. For instance, polar bears are now mating with grizzlies and possibly brown bears in the future. This has been seen as a bad thing until now because the authors in this paper have shown that the polar bear already hybridized with brown bears thousands of years ago.
The authors suggest that the hybridisation has had benefits to the polar bears to help them adapt to unsavoury climate conditions. Hence, the current polar bear already has hybridised and perhaps we shouldn’t interfere when this happens again as hybridisation may be what is needed for the species to survive? I don’t know the answer but maybe hybridisation is not the foe we have always been told it was?

OpenYourEyes

In terms of the situation today, hybridisation can have benefits in some cases, but I think these benefits are usually only seen over an evolutionary timescale (i.e. long-term), but habitat destruction,climate change, hunting, dramatic population declines etc are currently happening over a pretty short period of time and on a widespread scale, so wouldnt allow for the benefits of hybridisation to come to fruition.

Birdnuts

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

In terms of the situation today, hybridisation can have benefits in some cases, but I think these benefits are usually only seen over an evolutionary timescale (i.e. long-term), but habitat destruction,climate change, hunting, dramatic population declines etc are currently happening over a pretty short period of time and on a widespread scale, so wouldnt allow for the benefits of hybridisation to come to fruition.

Plus hybridisation brought about by the deliberate introduction of a non-native species is obviously to be avoided as in the case of escaped American Ruddy ducks threatening the survival of Europes White-Headed duck

Calochortus

Some pictures of a hybrid bear that was shot in Canada in 2006. http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/article/20070119/REGION/101190071

recedite

It wasn't just the bears that were at it

Birdnuts

recedite wrote: »

It wasn't just the bears that were at it

Theres been an excellent series running for the last few weeks on BBC 2 documenting interactions between us and other hominids like Neaderthals and H.erectus. It strongly suggests human females were attracted to males of the other species. Yet us lads are the ones who get grief for base instincts when it comes to attractivness in mates!!:(:rolleyes::D;)

Traonach

Birdnuts wrote: »

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=9bdbf8da2b0317314416e170842e9c6f&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politics.ie%2Fforum%2Fenvironment%2F164667-polar-bears-irish.html&v=1&libid=1310058516106&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.guardian.co.uk%2Fscience%2F2011%2Fjul%2F07%2Fpolar-bear-ancestors-ireland&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politics.ie%2Fforum%2Fenvironment%2F&title=Polar%20Bears%20are%20Irish&txt=Polar%20bear%20ancestors%20came%20from%20Ireland%20%7C%20Science%20%7C%20The%20Guardian

Recent evidence from caves in Cork and Leitrim suggest the Irish Brown Bear survived well after the last ice-age and existed as recently as 500 BC:eek: - sadly this also suggests the hand of man was responsible for its ultimate extinction:(

Forgive my pedantic nature, but grizzly bears were never found in Ireland. They are a North American species.:D

Calochortus

Traonach wrote: »

Forgive my pedantic nature, but grizzly bears were never found in Ireland. They are a North American species.:D

Ah, but that is where you are wrong! The brown bear that roamed Ireland was in fact the same species as the North American grizzly. The brown bear now found in Europe is a much smaller variety. The North American grizzly can have it's origins traced back to Eurasia.

Traonach

Calochortus wrote: »

Ah, but that is where you are wrong! The brown bear that roamed Ireland was in fact the same species as the North American grizzly. The brown bear now found in Europe is a much smaller variety. The North American grizzly can have it's origins traced back to Eurasia.

Incorrect mo chara.
The Brown bear evolved into the Grizzly bear (distinct subspecies) in North America. They didn't evolve into Grizzly bears in Europe, therefore there were never Grizzly bears in Ireland

Birdnuts

Traonach wrote: »

Forgive my pedantic nature, but grizzly bears were never found in Ireland. They are a North American species.:D

I was trying to catch the eye I guess;)

PS: I will challenge anyone to a debate on Brown bear taxonomy:D:cool:

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Birdnuts wrote: »

PS: I will challenge anyone to a debate on Brown bear taxonomy:D:cool:

I'm confused.
How can you debate taxonomy?

Kingdom: Animalia Phylum: Chordata Subphylum: Vertebrata Class: Mammalia Order: Carnivora Family: Ursidae Sub-family: Ursinae Genus: Ursus Species: arctos

What is to debate?

magicbastarder

jaysus, the irish weren't happy with claiming obama, now we're claiming the polar bear.

hardly surprising the polar bear is irish, it's fecking freezing this last few weeks (not today mind).

recedite

It seems possible that weather conditions were so extreme during the ice age that most of the original polar bears died out. Then later the hybridised bears moved back to the arctic again from northwest europe to recolonise the vacant areas, gradually reverting to polar bear type.

more on hybrids

Yosef Vast Plow wrote: »

Genus:[/I] Ursus Species: arctos

What is to debate?

But there are many subspecies of brown bear, such as the grizzly, and also intermediate forms.
There seems to be two main specialties; a large tundra adapted or coastal dwelling type, and a smaller more agile forest dwelling form.
The grizzly seems to be in the process of reverting to the forest form, but descends from the tundra/coastal form, having crossed over from Siberia. So they are smaller than the American coastal bears, but they still prefer open mountains to dense forests.

Irish bears pre ice age were the larger coastal form, still found in north eastern Europe but afterwards the new forests were recolonised with the forest bears of the modern south western European type.

This Canadian article refers to Irish Grizzlies, incorrectly I would say.

Calochortus

Traonach wrote: »

Incorrect mo chara.
The Brown bear evolved into the Grizzly bear (distinct subspecies) in North America. They didn't evolve into Grizzly bears in Europe, therefore there were never Grizzly bears in Ireland

But it is just that, a subspecies of the brown bear. The brown bear is “Ursus arctos”. The grizzly bear is “Ursus arctos horriblis”, amongst other disputed grizzly subspecies of brown bear and is still commonly only described as “Ursus arctos”. “Horriblis” speciated in northern continental areas and then they subsequently spread in to N. America, but it is still a brown bear and not distinct enough from the brown bear to be denoted a separate species. Even the polar bear, that is a descendant from the brown bear, is a separate species (ursus maritimus). The term grizzly is not only use to describe “horriblis”, but has also been used to describe “Ursus ferox”, a now disputed species that was thought to have roamed Europe in prehistoric times. It was also used for the cave bear (Ursus spelaeus) which stood at 12ft. Nor is grizzly a specific term of nomenclature! The taxonomy of the bear species from archaeological remains found in Ireland is still highly disputed and even within this article, the brown bears are all grouped collectively as “Ursus” despite being of different mtDNA clades/lineages.

Hence, I do not believe it is incorrect to describe the Irish bear as a grizzly bear as anyone who would have come across the species would have described it as a grizzly sight. Just have a look at this interesting article to see the difficulties in North America.http://www.nrmsc.usgs.gov/files/norock/products/Grizzly_Chapter.pdf

Calochortus

recedite wrote: »

It seems possible that weather conditions were so extreme during the ice age that most of the original polar bears died out. Then later the hybridised bears moved back to the arctic again from northwest europe to recolonise the vacant areas, gradually reverting to polar bear type.

Also, is it possible that what the authors claim was an Irish brown bear, may have been a polar bear? Why have we not come across a similar mtDNA lineage anywhere else other than Ireland?

recedite

Calochortus wrote: »

Hence, I do not believe it is incorrect to describe the Irish bear as a grizzly bear as anyone who would have come across the species would have described it as a grizzly sight.http://www.nrmsc.usgs.gov/files/norock/products/Grizzly_Chapter.pdf

"Grizzly" comes from the word grizzled(french word gris=grey) but apparently there was a mix up later on with people taking the meaning grisly and thus the latin horribilis.
Blonde/grey tipped guard hairs are a colour variation more common in the smaller inland forest form of American Brown Bear. Whether the Irish ones had that colour probably is not that significant, you would have to have seen one to prove it one way or the other. Having said that, most Americans would probably call all brown bears grizzlies.

Calochortus wrote: »

Also, is it possible that what the authors claim was an Irish brown bear, may have been a polar bear? Why have we not come across a similar mtDNA lineage anywhere else other than Ireland?

A modern polar bear has a smaller skull for its size, for diving into seal ice breathing holes. I presume they checked that.
Another unique mtDNA lineage (mentioned in the paper you linked to) is the ABC Islands also left stranded on isolated islands, I wonder if they have cross checked those with the Irish DNA. This link is from 1996, so slightly outdated now.
As polar bears are a much more aquatic animal, it would seem reasonable that archaic polar bears evolved from an island or coastal based brown bear.

Calochortus

recedite wrote: »

"Grizzly" comes from the word grizzled(french word gris=grey) but apparently there was a mix up later on with people taking the meaning grisly and thus the latin horribilis.
Blonde/grey tipped guard hairs are a colour variation more common in the smaller inland forest form of American Brown Bear. Whether the Irish ones had that colour probably is not that significant, you would have to have seen one to prove it one way or the other. Having said that, most Americans would probably call all brown bears grizzlies.

Also worth mentioning that another brown subspecies, the Himalayan Brown Bear (Ursus arctos isabellinus) also has the grizzled hair effect.

recedite wrote: »

A modern polar bear has a smaller skull for its size, for diving into seal ice breathing holes. I presume they checked that.
Another unique mtDNA lineage (mentioned in the paper you linked to) is the ABC Islands also left stranded on isolated islands, I wonder if they have cross checked those with the Irish DNA. This link is from 1996, so slightly outdated now.
As polar bears are a much more aquatic animal, it would seem reasonable that archaic polar bears evolved from an island or coastal based brown bear.

It isn't clear from the article if the DNA extracted from the bear remains in question actually came from a skull or another bone fragment. The only information they give is "believed to have come from older bones". I would actually think that they can't be too sure what fragments belong to which species without the DNA analysis as there may not be enough physiological variation from the mixed or incomplete bone remains.

The ABC Island brown bears are the next closest relative of the polar bear after the historic Irish brown bear (according to the analysis of Edwards paper, see attached figure). The authors suggest this is caused by hybridisation that has already taken place or rapid radiation due to climate conditions present at the time of polar bear evolution.

Birdnuts

Does anyone know the closest living relative of the now extinct Barbary Bear of North Africa??

Calochortus

Birdnuts wrote: »

Does anyone know the closest living relative of the now extinct Barbary Bear of North Africa??

As far as I know there was only one bear in Africa which was called (Ursus arctos crowtheri) or the Atlas bear. I think the extinct lion from the same area was called the barbary lion so I imagine there are a few names for the same bear. It became isolated to the Atlas mountains and eventually died out.

According to Edward's study,the Atlas bear is the next closest relative to current polar bear clade after the Irish brown bear and the Alaskan brown bears of ABC Island.