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Mohamed Atta / CIA connections

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  • 06-07-2011 10:51pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 873 ✭✭✭


    Mohamed Atta.

    Connected to CIA or not?

    Willing participant?

    Patsy?

    Did top ranking US intelligence know about the planned attacks and let them happen as an excuse to inflict the war on terror?

    Did top ranking US intelligence PLAN the attacks and let them happen?

    Thoughts please...


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 485 ✭✭Boo Radley


    ed2hands wrote: »
    Mohamed Atta.

    Connected to CIA or not?

    Willing participant?

    Patsy?

    Did top ranking US intelligence know about the planned attacks and let them happen as an excuse to inflict the war on terror?

    Did top ranking US intelligence PLAN the attacks and let them happen?

    Thoughts please...

    Of all the conspiracy theories the only one which might have some legs would be 'it was allowed to happen'.

    I don't believe for a second that the US had a hand in the planning.

    The only trouble is I have not heard or seen of any convincing evidence that would suggest that it was even allowed to happen. I believe it is more likely that it was inter-agency poor communication and ultimately incompetence that were the reasons behind the planned attacks on 9/11 not being intercepted and prevented.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 873 ✭✭✭ed2hands


    Boo Radley wrote: »
    Of all the conspiracy theories the only one which might have some legs would be 'it was allowed to happen'.

    I don't believe for a second that the US had a hand in the planning.

    The only trouble is I have not heard or seen of any convincing evidence that would suggest that it was even allowed to happen. I believe it is more likely that it was inter-agency poor communication and ultimately incompetence that were the reasons behind the planned attacks on 9/11 not being intercepted and prevented.


    I hear what you're saying. Maybe finding the evidence will be hard to find on this as they're damn good at hiding it. The dogs on the street can see motive. Motive doesn't cut the mustard though. Cheneys actions in the Pentagon for instance might be a good starting point. CIA "previous" HAS to be relevant. No doubt.


  • Registered Users Posts: 485 ✭✭Boo Radley


    ed2hands wrote: »
    I hear what you're saying. Maybe finding the evidence will be hard to find on this as they're damn good at hiding it. The dogs on the street can see motive. Motive doesn't cut the mustard though. Cheneys actions in the Pentagon for instance might be a good starting point. CIA "previous" HAS to be relevant. No doubt.

    You're right there was certainly a viable motive for allowing it to happen, but like you said that's not enough. Try hard enough and I'm sure we could come up with lots of different plausible motives.

    I would be very surprised if their was a conspiracy as I genuinely don't think something this big could be kept secret.

    In this day of wikileaks and electronic paper trails it seems almost implausible that it could be.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 873 ✭✭✭ed2hands


    Boo Radley wrote: »
    You're right there was certainly a viable motive for allowing it to happen, but like you said that's not enough. Try hard enough and I'm sure we could come up with lots of different plausible motives.

    I would be very surprised if their was a conspiracy as I genuinely don't think something this big could be kept secret.

    In this day of wikileaks and electronic paper trails it seems almost implausible that it could be.


    Just first of all, IMO it's not necessary to take it that just because it's not on Wikileaks that it didn't actually happen. That might be a big mistake. You have to disregard Wikileaks as a possible source, as it may well be a CIA "limited hangout" organisation.

    Fair point though with paper trails. The only thing is...top secret plans will not have paper trails to be de-classified in 2061 or whatever. The CIA operators for the most part would be far too savy to leave any paper evidence of their past and present actions/crimes. (of which there are many).... which suits their critics down to the ground i know.
    If you, as the saying goes "suspend your disbelief" and look at it like Sherlock Holmes (or King Mob;)) would, then for me it points to at least "let it happen". At least.

    It's true what you say regarding plausibility for some. For others the plausibility is for the case of "if it didn't happen on it's own, they would have organised for it to happen.."

    You'll find there will be numerous connections with CIA and Al Qaeda. Does that prove they planned 9/11? No.

    False flag attacks have had a long and infamous history before 2001. This fact has to be taken into account but not as evidence in and of itself.

    Edit: This has probably been gone over already. Am looking forward to the big dogs fighting this one out again though..


  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Atta the Hebrew speaking, drug taking, stripper ****ing, drug using Islamic fundamentalist planning to give up his life and kill for Islam? Doesn't sit too well with me.

    Interview with Atta's ex girlfriend Amanda Keller



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  • Registered Users Posts: 485 ✭✭Boo Radley


    ed2hands wrote: »
    Just first of all, IMO it's not necessary to take it that just because it's not on Wikileaks that it didn't actually happen. That might be a big mistake. You have to disregard Wikileaks as a possible source, as it may well be a CIA "limited hangout" organisation.

    Fair point though with paper trails. The only thing is...top secret plans will not have paper trails to be de-classified in 2061 or whatever. The CIA operators for the most part would be far too savy to leave any paper evidence of their past and present actions/crimes. (of which there are many).... which suits their critics down to the ground i know.
    If you, as the saying goes "suspend your disbelief" and look at it like Sherlock Holmes (or King Mob;)) would, then for me it points to at least "let it happen". At least.

    It's true what you say regarding plausibility for some. For others the plausibility is for the case of "if it didn't happen on it's own, they would have organised for it to happen.."

    You'll find there will be numerous connections with CIA and Al Qaeda. Does that prove they planned 9/11? No.

    False flag attacks have had a long and infamous history before 2001. This fact has to be taken into account but not as evidence in and of itself.

    Edit: This has probably been gone over already. Am looking forward to the big dogs fighting this one out again though..

    As it stands I'm open to any possibility but I do rely heavily on evidence. It just seems to me that if they wanted to stage a so called 'false flag' attack they could have done so in an number of other ways without the loss of thousands of civilian lives.

    I would suggest that what happened at the WTC was serious overkill from the perspective of 'false flag'. Granted the bull**** scaremongering surrounding the Iraq invasion was riding on the crest of the 9/11 wave of hysteria but the Iraq situation it does go to show that governments can create scenarios to justify conflict.

    Flying planes into buildings in a city centre certainly was not necessary to go into Afghanistan. There had been calls for years from human rights activists for some kind of action due to the Taliban and their suppression of their own people, particularly their women.

    There was ample legitimate reasons to take down the Taliban before 9/11. The same goes for Iraq and Saddam.

    Anyway, there is little point in getting too deep into that part of the discussion. Sufficed to say I'll wait for the evidence and for now I don't buy into 'false flag' or 'allowing it to happen' due to the lack of evidence.


  • Registered Users Posts: 485 ✭✭Boo Radley


    Atta the Hebrew speaking, drug taking, stripper ****ing, drug using Islamic fundamentalist planning to give up his life and kill for Islam? Doesn't sit too well with me.

    Interview with Atta's ex girlfriend Amanda Keller


    Isn't there something about Takfiri or Takfir (or something like that) religious practice where a Muslim extremist is allowed to do un-Islamic things in order to blend into the infidel society? Much like Communist Russian Spies working in America.


  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Boo Radley wrote: »
    Isn't there something about Takfiri or Takfir (or something like that) religious practice where a Muslim extremist is allowed to do un-Islamic things in order to blend into the infidel society? Much like Communist Russian Spies working in America.

    Not exactly. From a little bit of googling I've learned from Islamic sources that what you are referring to is al-Taqiyya whereby a Muslim (not a "Muslim extremist) is obligated to conceal their faith when their life or the lives or their families are in immediate danger. This is only permissable when it does not involve taking the life of an innocent civilian. Also, it is practiced by Shia Muslims predominately and rejected by Sunnis, which is what Atta was and overwhelmingly rejected by Islamic extremist sects - Deobandis, Salafis, and Wahabbis. So it doesn't really fit. I'd like to take you back to your previous post.
    Sufficed to say I'll wait for the evidence and for now I don't buy into 'false flag' or 'allowing it to happen' due to the lack of evidence.
    As an aside I find it mildly ironic that you have made such a drama out of the term "false-flag" by repeatedly placing it in scare quotes when al-Taqiyya is essentially the hoisting of a false-flag (Christian for example) for personal protection in the manner of a wartime merchant ship.

    The actual point I want to make is that there is no evidence to suggest that Atta was anything other than an Arab hedonist who lived contrary to Islamic morals and values nevermind an extreme fundamentalist strict codes. On the one hand you are incredulous about 9-11 due to perceived lack of evidence while on the other you apparently believe something else, Atta was a Tafkiri without any evidence at all. Bias must be at play here.


  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    just finished Daniel Hopsicker's Welcome to Terrorland. He exposes the cover story of the Florida flight schools, and the ongoing cover-up.

    The whole thing stinks of Iran/Contra and CIA drugs. It's the same, bloody game.


    Though his style can be annoyingly breezy, I highly recommend the book. There's original research you won't find anywhere else but here and on his website: http://www.madcowprod.com.

    FYI, here are some notes I kept while reading the book:

    • 1. In Venice Florida, Mohamed Atta lived for two months with an American stripper/lingerie model named Amanda Keller.

    • 2. Atta loved to party. He was out with Keller nearly every night they were together. He was a heavy drinker, snorted coke, was a stylish dresser and wore expensive jewelry.

    • 3. According to Keller, Atta loved pork chops.

    • 4. Keller dumped him after he embarrassed her at a night club by dancing, poorly, atop a speaker ("doing that old 'Roxbury head bob' thing, you know"?)

    • 5. Atta revenged himself later on Keller by returning to the apartment they’d shared and killing her cat and kittens, disemboweling and dismembering them in her apartment for her to find.

    • 6. In Miami, Atta consorted with women known to be linked to the Mafia.

    • 7. Atta’s email list included names of people who worked for defense contractors. One, for instance, worked for Canadian firm Virtual Prototypes, which helped develop the avionics for F-15, F-22 and B-2.

    • 8. Atta was enrolled as a student at the International Officer’s School of Maxwell Airforce Base, and witnesses recall him having been introduced around at an officers' club party.

    • 9. Atta was fluent in at least Arabic, English, German, French and Hebrew.

    • 10. One day when Atta was rummaging through his flight bag, Keller got a look inside. Her words:
    "The thing the FBI was most interested in was his pilot bag. They asked about it a lot. He kept it locked, and they wanted to know whether I had ever seen anything in it. I told them yes. One day he opened it briefly, and there were a lot of papers in it, and there was a blue log book in a different language. Mohamed was fluent in almost any language you can think of. He had a kind of Daytimer in there, too. And a folder with all these different ID’s in it. And that’s when I saw one – because it fell out – a little blue and white thing the size of a driver’s license. It had his picture on it, and it looked like a mug shot, or a prison shot. And it didn’t look like him, and I asked him, 'Who is this?'

    "And he said, 'that’s me.' He told me it had been taken back when he was in some kind of militia-type deal, like a military-type deal, he said. He compared it to our military only they teach you different tactics. He didn’t elaborate.

    "He didn’t say where it was from, either. But the writing looked like a cross between Hebrew and Arabic, those frilly little lines. He told me he spoke Hebrew. I said bull****. So he started speaking it, and I guess he did.

    "He told me that he went to different countries and studied. He had pilot’s license from several different countries. But all the pictures looked different. All the names were different. He had a license to fly from just about every country he had been to. He went to pilot’s school in all these countries."
    • 11. Atta, Keller, a stripper named Linda and two Germans partied for three days in Key West. Atta paid for everything. Rented three rooms, one just for the men’s luggage, which Keller says contained drugs. The men had a business meeting the women were not permitted to attend. Met with people, Keller says, who flew in just to meet Atta. Somber and quiet after meeting. (Key West Airport a known drug transit point. The Sheriff used to be under orders to keep the dope sniffing dogs off airplanes, and at one time even sent patrol cars to escort the drugs to Miami.)

    The German revelers in Key West were a brother team - two pilots from Munich who had known Atta for some years. They were Stephen and Peter Verhaaren. Amanda had been led to believe Stephan and Peter were Austrian. She only knew these European friends of Atta by first names. Through records from the various airport authorites Lois Ann Battuello, a researcher working with Hopsicker stumbled onto Wolfgang's last name; and through his sale of a business to Stephan, was able to identify these two, for example. With the last names in tow, Daniel then began making contacts at the Naples Airport where these individuals were well known.

    • 12. Atta was a licensed pilot at least during the months of March and April 2001 when he lived with Amanda Keller. He had the privileges of an instructor while he was at Huffman Aviation, and may have helped pilot South American drug runs.

    • 13. The FBI timeline says Atta left Venice Florida in December 2000 after completing his flight training. But he didn’t. Dozens of locals say different – his landlord, neighbours, cab drivers, restaurant employees and his girlfriend, for a few instances – and have been told not to talk about it by federal authorities. The FBI publicly sought information regarding Atta’s time in various US locations, but not Venice Florida, where he spent most of his time in the US. Why the intentional misdirection? What are they trying to keep hidden?

    • 14. Under pressure from the FBI, and despite numerous witnesses who had known them together, Keller publicly retracted her story of having lived with Atta, saying he’d been another hijacker named Mohammed, no last name, who seems to have only existed to get Atta out of this story that didn’t fit the official version.

    • 15. On September 8th, 2001 --the Saturday before the 9/11 attacks, at a bar called Shuckums in Ft Lauderdale, Atta and two companions got drunk. The FBI showed up at the bar just 12 hours after the attack with pictures of two of them, one Atta, saying only “they were on the plane and passed away.” Manager Tony Amos and bartender Patricia Idrissi identified both. Manager Amos said they’d gotten "wasted," Atta drank Stoli vodka for three straight hours. Atta blasphemed: "F*ck God!" he’s said to have cursed.

    • 16. The witnesses then retracted the story of Atta being drunk. They now said he’d only drank cranberry juice the entire evening. Both Amos and Idrissi have gone, no one knows where, but the current bartender says she believes their leaving was somehow 9/11 related.

    • 17. Fourteen of the 9/11 hijackers made Florida their base of operation, and clustered around two flight schools. What is it about Florida, and these flight schools, that drew them?

    • 18. Atta and Marwan Al-Shehhi paid $28,000 each to Rudi Dekkers’ Huffman Aviation for flight instruction that, the chief instructor of a neighbouring school said, was available at dozens of other nearby locations for a fraction of the price. Why did they pay an inflated price to Dekkers?

    • 19. Dekkers’ and his financier, Wally Hilliard, purchased the flight school just months before Atta and the other hijackers began arriving. Before their purchase, the flight school catered to largely American students. After, student body became 80% foreign, mostly Middle Eastern. Yeslam bin Laden, Osama’s brother, sent students there for his business.

    • 20. Atta also frequented Arne Kruithof's Florida Flight Training Center, a block away from Huffman Aviation. Amanda Keller says it is where he would go to replenish his cocaine stash.

    • 21. Though Dutchmen Dekkers and Kruithof claimed they had not known each other before each coincidently purchased flight training schools in Venice shortly before terrorists began arriving for training, witnesses claim the two had known each other well for years before.

    • 22. Wally Hilliard is a supposedly-retired, born again insurance executive from the Midwest (motto for his insurance company had been "Hate Sin, Fight Communism, Back the Pack!"), who upon arriving in Florida entered into aviation businesses with an assortment of criminal and covert intelligence elements.

    • 23. Dekkers and Hilliard had not been in the flight school business before they made the purchase. They paid an inflated price for the school, and did no due diligence before the purchase. They lost millions, but this was apparently not a problem. Charlie Voss, former employee of Dekkers and an Iran/Contra pilot who’d also flown "Northern Alliance guys" in Afghanistan in the 1980s, and who had given Atta and Marwan Al-Shehhi a place to stay for a few weeks when they first arrived in Venice Florida: "Rudi’s greedy, and when you’re greedy you can be used for something.... When something doesn’t make obvious business sense, sometimes it’s because things are being done for another reason that doesn’t have a lot to do with dollars and cents. His business did not add up."

    • 24. Dekkers went from broke to flush very quickly, without having business success with the flight school. One observer said “He didn’t even have the money to buy gas for an airplane… and yet a year later he shows up and plops a million seven, a million eight or two million dollars on the table as if it were paper money.”

    • 25. The deputy in charge of Venice Fl airport security: "Wally and Rudi never talk inside a building, they go out to an airplane and talk inside the plane."

    • 26. Dekkers’ claimed he had very little interaction with Atta, and that he never saw him again after December 2000. But numerous witnesses in Venice claim Dekkers and Atta were close, and were seen at a restaurant together just two weeks before the attack.

    • 27. Hilliard denied knowing Atta. Keller recalled, on a visit to the airport, having Hilliard ask her, "What’s a nice girl like you doing with a guy like Mohamed?"

    • 28. Before the attack, Dekkers was having trouble paying rent on flight school. It was so bad, it was a story in the Venice paper when he paid rent. One month before attack, he stopped having trouble. Since attack, every aviation concern at Venice airport has been late at least once with their monthly rent, except for Dekkers’.

    • 29. Both the DEA and US Customs had been interested in Dekkers as far back as 1993. He was suspected of smuggling drugs and computer chips.

    • 30. In early July, 2004 about the same time as Atta and Marwan Al-Shehi began flying lessons at Huffman Aviation, a Lear jet owned by its financier, Wally Hilliard, carrying 43 pounds of heroin was seized by the DEA. In news reports later that month, authorities called it the biggest seizure of heroin ever in central Florida.

    • 31. The passengers, Venezuelan nationals, were arrested, but the pilot wasn’t charged, said a DEA spokesman, "because of lack of evidence." This, despite the fact the pilot, Diego Levine-Texar, ignored agents demands that he drop his cell phone, which had to be pried from his hand at gunpoint. Affidavit of the DEA agent: "Based on my experience I know that narcotics traffickers maintain frequent contact with one another while transporting narcotics… I believe Levine-Texar attempted to contact other accomplices as to the presence of agents and other law enforcement officials." Information about Levine-Texar is considered "sensitive."

    • 32. But the DEA refused to return the plane to Hilliard. The DEA wanted to use the plane for drug interdiction. The lender took possession of the plane and sold it. Unusual for a so-called "innocent man" to be denied the return of his possession, or compensation.

    • 33. After Hilliard lost his plane to the DEA auction, he was loaned a plane worth $2 million for just one dollar by Truman Arnold, former chief fundraiser for the Democratic Party, who figured in the Whitewater investigation.

    • 34. John Villada, an aviation executive in Naples Florida: "After Wally’s plane was impounded with the heroin and his pilots had machine guns stuck in their faces, the DEA came to visit our maintenance facility and Wally shouted out to me – right in front of the DEA guy – 'Make sure all the heroin and cocaine gets hidden!'" Hilliard's mock warning seemed to show the DEA how little he thought of them, and how well he was protected.

    • 35. The paperwork showed the same plane had made approximately 30 weekly round trips to Venezuela with the same passengers, and they always paid cash. “They obviously weren’t even bothering to hide what they were doing,” said one observer.

    • 36. Hilliard had got his confiscated Lear jet from World Jet Inc, owned by drug smuggling brothers Don and Bill Whittington, who had supplied a Lear to CIA drug smuggler Barry Seal that they took back before his arrest and murder. The Whittington Brothers are now in Club Fed and have been for years since their trials in the mid-1980s.

    • 37. The Sarasota County Drug interdiction people were told that Dekkers and Hilliard had a green light to operation and that they were to stay away from them, that they... may have had some type of government protection. And the local Venice Police Department were also warned to leave them alone.

    • 38. A former Huffman executive, speaking about the hijackers: "Early on I gleaned that these guys had government protection. They were let into this country for a specific purpose. It was a business deal."

    • 39. The FBI visited the home of this executive just four hours after the attacks. The purpose has been not to investigate, but to intimidate him into silence. The man says his phones were bugged, and thinks pilots were "double agents." He quit the flight school fearing for his life, and claims he knows too much about Wally Hillier, saying he "has a family to think about."

    • 40. The FBI removed the flight school records on the early morning of September 12. According to Venice Police officers, they were taken in two Ryder trucks from Venice that drove to the Sarasota International Airport and these trucks were driven onto a Florida Air National Guard C-130 transport that was greeted by Jeb Bush who hopped on board.

    Jeb had signed an Executive Order the morning of Sept. 11 declaring a state of emergency based on terrorist attacks. This allowed that Florida Air National Guard planes could land at public vs. military airports. Furthermore, Jeb immediately placed his Florida Department of Law Enforcement "in charge" of an investigation into the terrorist presence in Florida. MOST of the witnesses intervewied were NOT interviewed by the FBI, rather they were interviewed and likewise threatened by members of Jeb's Florida Department of Law Enforcement.

    • 41. Jeb Bush and Katherine Harris have flown and endorsed Hilliard’s air carrier.

    • 42. In the days following 9/11, a number of Saudis fled the country from Florida after the attacks. They flew on Wally Hillier’s charter aircraft to private fields of military contractor Raytheon, and departed on a 747.

    • 43. After the attacks, a virtually non-existent company that operated out of Venice Airport under Huffman’s license called Britannia Aviation was awarded a five-year, multi-million dollar contract to run the maintenance facility at Lychburg Virginia Regional Airport. (FYI, Lynchburg is the home of Jerry Falwell’s Liberty Baptist University.) Britannia did not have an FAA license to work on planes and showed assets of only $750. It was chosen over Virginia Aviation, which showed a multi-million dollar balance and boasted more than 40 employees.

    • 44. Britannia executive Peter Martens boasted that his company had been providing maintenance at Venice Airport for "Caribe Air," which is a notorious CIA proprietary carrier.

    • 45. A source at the Drug Enforcement Agency says that Britannia has a "green light" from the DEA, and that local police had been warned to leave Britannia alone.

    • 46. Martens also has ties to Falwell, having met his wife at his university in Lynchburg.

    • 47. Many of the Venice flight trainers moonlight by flying "missionary flights" to Central and South America, for such organizations as Pat Robertson’s Operation Hope. (Are mission groups being used as fronts for covert ops?)

    • 48. Most of Atta's closest associates in Venice were not Arabs, but Europeans with connection to the drug trade.

    • 49. Though flight school owners Dekkers and Kruithof had before crashed, within weeks of each other in 2002, both had near fatal crashes. Wreckage was destroyed before it could be examined.

    • 50. According to his girlfriend, Atta was a big Beastie Boys fan.

    Before September 11, 2001: Hijackers Drink Alcohol and Watch Strip Shows, Especially towards Eve of Attacks

    edit.png

    992_cheetahs_2050081722-8442.jpgCheetah’s nude bar in San Diego. [Source: Cheetah's]A number of the hijackers apparently drink alcohol heavily in bars, sleep with prostitutes, and watch strip shows in the US in the months and especially the days leading up to 9/11.
    childbullet.gif In late February 2001, hijacker Ziad Jarrah frequents a strip club in Jacksonville, Florida (see February 25-March 4, 2001).
    childbullet.gif In July 2001, hijackers Hamza Alghamdi and Marwan Alshehhi make two purchases of “pornographic video and sex toys” from a Florida store (see July 4-27, 2001).
    childbullet.gif Some hijackers, including possibly Satam Al Suqami and Waleed and Wail Alshehri, sleep with prostitutes in the days before 9/11 (see September 7-11, 2001).
    childbullet.gif On September 10, three hijacker associates spend $200 to $300 apiece on lap dances and drinks in the Pink Pony, a Daytona Beach, Florida strip club. While the hijackers had left Florida by this time, Mohamed Atta is reported to have visited the same strip club, and these men appear to have had foreknowledge of the 9/11 attacks (see September 10, 2001). URL="http://web.archive.org/web/20011010224657/http://www.bostonherald.com/attack/investigation/ausprob10102001.htm"]Boston Herald, 10/10/2001[/URL
    childbullet.gif Marwan Alshehhi and Mohamed Atta are seen entering the Hollywood, Florida, sports bar Shuckums already drunk. They proceed to drink even more hard alcohol there (see September 7, 2001).
    childbullet.gif Atta and Alshehhi are seen at Sunrise 251, a bar in Palm Beach, Florida. They spend $1,000 in 45 minutes on Krug and Perrier-Jouet champagne. Atta is with a tall busty brunette in her late twenties; Alshehhi is with a shortish blonde. Both women are known locally as regular companions of high-rollers. [Daily Mail, 9/16/2001]
    childbullet.gif A stripper at the Olympic Garden Topless Cabaret in Las Vegas, Nevada, later recalls Marwan Alshehhi being “cheap,” paying only $20 for a lap dance. [Cox News Service, 10/16/2001]
    childbullet.gif Several hijackers reportedly patronize the Nardone’s Go-Go Bar in Elizabeth, New Jersey. They are even seen there on the weekend before 9/11. [Boston Herald, 10/10/2001; Wall Street Journal, 10/16/2001]
    childbullet.gif Majed Moqed visits a porn shop on three occasions and rents a porn video. The mayor of Paterson, New Jersey, later says of the six hijackers who stayed there, “Nobody ever saw them at mosques, but they liked the go-go clubs.” URL="http://web.archive.org/web/20031221013952/http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-usflight232380680sep23.story"]Newsday, 9/23/2001[/URL]; [URL="http://www.wanttoknow.info/011015newsweek"]Newsweek, 10/15/2001[/URL
    childbullet.gif Nawaf Alhazmi and Khalid Almihdhar often frequent Cheetah’s, a nude bar in San Diego. URL="http://articles.latimes.com/2002/sep/01/nation/na-plot"]Los Angeles Times, 9/1/2002[/URL
    childbullet.gif Marwan Alshehhi is possibly seen in the Cheetah nightclub in Pompado Beach, Florida, on July 1, 2001. Six dancers who work there later claim to have seen him. URL="http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/sourcedocuments/2001/pdfs/fbi911timeline106-210.pdf"]Federal Bureau of Investigation, 10/2001, pp. 173 [IMG]http://www.historycommons.org/pics/icons/pdfbw.png[/IMG][/URL
    childbullet.gif Hamza Alghamdi watches a porn video on September 10. URL="http://web.archive.org/web/20011023132702/http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB1003180286455952120.htm"]Wall Street Journal, 10/16/2001[/URL
    Temple University in Philadelphia professor Mahmoud Mustafa Ayoub will later comment: “It is incomprehensible that a person could drink and go to a strip bar one night, then kill themselves the next day in the name of Islam.… People who would kill themselves for their faith would come from very strict Islamic ideology. Something here does not add up.URL="http://web.archive.org/web/20010916150533/http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-warriors916.story"]South Florida Sun-Sentinel, 9/16/2001[/URL


  • Registered Users Posts: 485 ✭✭Boo Radley


    Not exactly. From a little bit of googling I've learned from Islamic sources that what you are referring to is al-Taqiyya whereby a Muslim (not a "Muslim extremist) is obligated to conceal their faith when their life or the lives or their families are in immediate danger. This is only permissable when it does not involve taking the life of an innocent civilian. Also, it is practiced by Shia Muslims predominately and rejected by Sunnis, which is what Atta was and overwhelmingly rejected by Islamic extremist sects - Deobandis, Salafis, and Wahabbis. So it doesn't really fit. I'd like to take you back to your previous post.


    As an aside I find it mildly ironic that you have made such a drama out of the term "false-flag" by repeatedly placing it in scare quotes when al-Taqiyya is essentially the hoisting of a false-flag (Christian for example) for personal protection in the manner of a wartime merchant ship.

    The actual point I want to make is that there is no evidence to suggest that Atta was anything other than an Arab hedonist who lived contrary to Islamic morals and values nevermind an extreme fundamentalist strict codes. On the one hand you are incredulous about 9-11 due to perceived lack of evidence while on the other you apparently believe something else, Atta was a Tafkiri without any evidence at all. Bias must be at play here.

    First of all I posed a question. I'm not sure what I did to deserve your hostility as a result. I drew no conclusions so your accusation of me believing without evidence is, to say the least, unfounded. A question is generally part and parcel of a conversation and no it was not rhetorical.

    With regard to placing '' around 'false flag', I don't see any drama in that, but that's your interpretation. Albeit very amusing one at that.

    All I did was attempt to engage in discussion. Your response? Well, it's there for all to see.

    Back on topic. I don't think it's a stretch of the imagination that this guy could have been behaving like this to blend in at all. Like I mentioned, hardcore communists were capable of living a capitalist lifestyle to achieve their end.

    It's back to the same kind of problem. Just because he behaved this way does not automatically mean there was more to it than meets the eye.


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  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Boo Radley wrote: »
    First of all I posed a question. I'm not sure what I did to deserve your hostility as a result.
    If I came across as hostile I apologise, genuinely. I can assure you it wasn't my attention. I'm not great at communicating through the written word.
    Boo Radley wrote: »
    I drew no conclusions so your accusation of me believing without evidence is, to say the least, unfounded.
    OK, it was a question but I took it as implied based on your previous posts that you didn't see any holes in the official narrative. So for clarity,

    • You have already stated that Atta's alleged behaviour was "unIslamic"
    • Do you accept that there is no evidence to confirm that Atta was a Tafkiri?
    • If so, do you accept that this scenario is anamolous?
    Boo Radley wrote: »
    With regard to placing '' around 'false flag', I don't see any drama in that, but that's your interpretation. Albeit very amusing one at that.
    Well your intention was obvious. It was to portay the very notion of a false-flag attack as aburd but history has proven you sorely misinformed I'm afraid.
    Boo Radley wrote: »
    Back on topic. I don't think it's a stretch of the imagination that this guy could have been behaving like this to blend in at all.
    I could accept that if his behaviour actually involved him blending in, becoming invisible but that was simply not the case. He seemed to be intentionally attracting attention to the fact that he was a militant Muslim and leaving clues to that effect. For example in the Florida bar he arrived at already drunk in the days before the attacks he was knocking back drinks, arguing with the staff and incredibly left a Qu'uran on the bar while a second hijacker left his business card. Soviet spies don't behave like this.
    Boo Radley wrote: »
    It's back to the same kind of problem. Just because he behaved this way does not automatically mean there was more to it than meets the eye.
    I disagree. For this reason

    "Philadelphia professor Mahmoud Mustafa Ayoub will later comment: “It is incomprehensible that a person could drink and go to a strip bar one night, then kill themselves the next day in the name of Islam.… People who would kill themselves for their faith would come from very strict Islamic ideology. Something here does not add up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 485 ✭✭Boo Radley


    If I came across as hostile I apologise, genuinely. I can assure you it wasn't my attention. I'm not great at communicating through the written word.


    OK, it was a question but I took it as implied based on your previous posts that you didn't see any holes in the official narrative. So for clarity,

    • You have already stated that Atta's alleged behaviour was "unIslamic"
    • Do you accept that there is no evidence to confirm that Atta was a Tafkiri?
    • If so, do you accept that this scenario is anamolous?


    Well your intention was obvious. It was to portay the very notion of a false-flag attack as aburd but history has proven you sorely misinformed I'm afraid.


    I could accept that if his behaviour actually involved him blending in, becoming invisible but that was simply not the case. He seemed to be intentionally attracting attention to the fact that he was a militant Muslim and leaving clues to that effect. For example in the Florida bar he arrived at already drunk in the days before the attacks he was knocking back drinks, arguing with the staff and incredibly left a Qu'uran on the bar while a second hijacker left his business card. Soviet spies don't behave like this.


    I disagree. For this reason

    "Philadelphia professor Mahmoud Mustafa Ayoub will later comment: “It is incomprehensible that a person could drink and go to a strip bar one night, then kill themselves the next day in the name of Islam.… People who would kill themselves for their faith would come from very strict Islamic ideology. Something here does not add up.

    Agreed, I have not seen any evidence of Tafkiri in the strictest definition of the word. However, that does not mean the people in question did not try and blend in and practice some form of deceit that they believed was okay for the greater good. As far as I know once someone becomes martyred their past sins are automatically erased, carte blanche, so that again could fit the ideology in question. It would not be necessary to hide their faith either, in fact it would be silly to attempt to do so in that scenario. I'm not being smart but I don't know what you mean by anamolous.

    It was not my intention to paint the entire concept of a false flag attack as impossible, merely in this case improbable and in my opinion an absurd idea.

    Again, hiding their faith would be more suspicious than not when blending in. I worked with a few people of the Muslim faith in my time and they didn't hide it, indeed practiced it openly, but also were more than happy to go for pints on a Friday. So for someone to hide it might be more suspicious if they come from a Muslim background.

    Regarding your reason for disagreeing I'm not convinced. It is entirely conceivable that people would behave contrary to their ideology, again to conceal an agenda. It's quite a leap to make that "People who would kill themselves for their faith would come from very strict Islamic ideology." would not be willing or even believe that they can behave in a manner not fitting that ideology in the name of their God's ultimate goals.

    I again refer to what being martyred apparently does for the soul.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭Di0genes


    BB I could go on about how Daniel Hopsicker has attended a conference organised by David Irving.

    But it'd be easier to focus on the main source of his book, Amanda Keller, Atta's "girlfriend"
    'LOVER': Amanda Keller

    "It was my bad for lying. I really didn't think about it until after I did it."
    For five years, Amanda Keller has been portrayed by conspiracy theorists as Mohamed Atta's lover.



    But the former Venice stripper now says her boyfriend was another flight student not connected to 9/11. And, for the first time, federal investigators say she's right.


    "There's nothing there to corroborate the relationship between the two," a New York-based FBI counterterrorism agent said recently after reviewing 9/11 case files.


    The agent got clearance to talk from the U.S. Attorney's Office and the FBI, but only agreed if his named was not used.


    Among other things, the government checked Atta's phone records and found the two had never called each other.


    In 2002, Keller granted an interview with Daniel Hopsicker, a Venice self-published writer who maintains the government has covered up facts about 9/11.


    In a taped interview that has circled the Internet, Keller casually discusses intimate details about her relationship with "Mohamed." She claimed it was Atta, but changed her story soon after.


    "It was my bad for lying," Keller said. "I really didn't think about it until after I did it."


    Keller, 24, is engaged and is studying to become a nurse. She moved to Ohio in early 2002 and said she hoped that by getting married and changing her name, she could finally leave the rumors behind.

    http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060910/NEWS/609100466/1007/BUSINESS

    A simple google search would have shown you the primary source for your book is bogus BB.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 873 ✭✭✭ed2hands


    Di0genes wrote: »
    BB I could go on about how Daniel Hopsicker has attended a conference organised by David Irving.

    I'm sure you could, but thankfully for this thread you're not going to i hope!

    Your aim by mentioning this fact is to discredit Hopsicker for being present at the Real History USA conference and it is associating him or critics of the 9/11 official story with holocaust deniers and anti-semites. He is neither.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭Di0genes


    ed2hands wrote: »
    I'm sure you could, but thankfully for this thread you're not going to i hope!

    Your aim by mentioning this fact is to discredit Hopsicker for being present at the Real History USA conference and it is associating him or critics of the 9/11 official story with holocaust deniers and anti-semites. He is neither.

    I never said he was either in my post, just that he doesn't mind the company of holocaust deniers and anti Semites.

    Instead I discredited him and his book because he uses as his primary source a habitual liar. Look at how many of the points are exposed as untrue once we discover that Keller is a fraud.


  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Di0genes wrote: »
    I never said he was either in my post, just that he doesn't mind the company of holocaust deniers and anti Semites.
    With respect, WTF has Hopsicker speaking at a conference got to do with Atta? Talk about reaching, guilt by association ain't gonna explain Atta's bizarre behavioural patterns.
    Di0genes wrote: »
    Instead I discredited him and his book because he uses as his primary source a habitual liar. Look at how many of the points are exposed as untrue once we discover that Keller is a fraud.

    1.Evidence please that Keller is a "habitual liar".

    2. You have not discredited him.

    3. That ****ty article quoting an anonymous source is not evidence of anything.

    4. You take the word unquestionably of a "habitual liar" and a "fraud" as long as it's convenient for you? WTF...:confused:

    5. Could you please explain why on earth anyone would pretend to be the lover of the 9-11 lead hijacker?


    Snippets rom the brief article

    For five years, Amanda Keller has been portrayed by conspiracy theorists as Mohamed Atta's lover.
    Keller was first put forward as Atta's lover by the mainstream media not "conspiracy theorists"
    The agent got clearance to talk from the U.S. Attorney's Office and the FBI, but only agreed if his named was not used.
    How convenient:rolleyes:
    Among other things,
    (That we won't bother mentioning)

    the government checked Atta's phone records and found the two had never called each other.
    :eek: So the FBI hasn't considered that the lead 9-11 hijacker would have been convering his tracks?
    "It was my bad for lying," Keller said. "I really didn't think about it until after I did it."

    This goes back to point 5 Diogenes -

    5. Could you please explain why on earth anyone would pretend to be the lover of the 9-11 lead hijacker?


  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Stephanie Frederickson, a resident at the Sandpiper Apartments, later remembers Keller and Atta. She claims Keller moved in next door to her. She goes on to say, “Then one day in the middle of March she brought home Atta.” Her recollection of Atta mirrors that of others. She will call him “a really nasty guy,” and say that he “had no patience, and seemed mad at the world.”

    Charles Grapentine,
    the manager of the Sandpiper Apartments, later recalls seeing Atta at the complex for about three weeks in April, and confirms that he was living with Keller.

    Keller’s mother, Susan Payne, also meets Atta and later says, “I didn’t like him; he just seemed strange.”

    As well as his stay at the Sandpiper Apartments, the man, possibly Atta, briefly rents a home in North Port. Its owners, Tony and Vonnie LaConca, know him only as “Mohamed.” They will be questioned in the days after 9/11 by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement (FDLE), and describe him as 25 years old, “very polite,” “very handsome,” and with “beautiful, unblemished skin.” From talking with “Mohamed” and Keller, the couple learns he is training for a commercial pilot’s license at Huffman Aviation, the Venice flight school attended by Atta in 2000 (see July 6-December 19, 2000).

    The Sarasota Herald-Tribune will claim that Keller’s companion is not Mohamed Atta, but another man of Middle Eastern descent who also took flying lessons in Venice. But authorities will refuse to reveal the full name of this “unidentified fifth man,” and investigators are reportedly unable to find him.


    According to official accounts, plus the testimony of Huffman Aviation’s owner Rudi Dekkers, Atta left the Venice flight school around the end of 2000, months before “Mohamed” stays in the apartment of Keller. (US Congress 3/19/2002; US Congress 9/26/2002; 9/11 Commission 8/21/2004, pp. 17 pdfbw.png)

    Keller, Charles Grapentine, and Stephanie Frederickson will all later allege that the FBI intimidated them after 9/11, and told them to keep quiet about what they knew (see (September 12, 2001-2002)). http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=charles_grapentine_1&printerfriendly=true



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    (September 12, 2001-2002): FBI Intimidates Witnesses Who Saw Atta in Venice; Tells Them to Keep Quiet


    A number of witnesses who claim they saw Mohamed Atta living in Venice, Florida in early 2001 later allege that, in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks, they are intimidated by the FBI and told to keep quiet about what they knew. Amanda Keller, who claims to have lived with Atta during early 2001 (see (February-April 2001)), later says that, even after she moved away from Venice, FBI agents called her every other day for several months after the attacks. She tells investigative reporter Daniel Hopsicker about “intimidation by the FBI” that she suffered, adding, “They told me not to talk to anybody, to keep my mouth shut.



    Stephanie Frederickson, who remembers Keller and Atta living next door to her in the Sandpiper Apartments in Venice, later recalls, “At first, right after the attack, [the FBI] told me I must have been mistaken in my identification. Or they would insinuate that I was lying. Finally they stopped trying to get me to change my story, and just stopped by once a week to make sure I hadn’t been talking to anyone. Who was I going to tell? Most everyone around here already knew.”



    Charles Grapentine, the manager of the Sandpiper Apartments, also confirms Atta having lived with Keller. He says that, after 9/11, the FBI “called me a liar, and told me to keep my mouth shut.” (Hopsicker 2004, pp. 62-63, 65 and 88-89)


    According to the FBI’s account of events, Atta had left Venice by late December 2000 or early January 2001. Its account makes no mention of him returning there later. (US Congress 9/26/2002) A former manager at Huffman Aviation, the Venice flight school attended by Atta in late 2000 (see July 6-December 19, 2000), also later alleges that the FBI intimidated him and told him to keep quiet. He says the FBI was “outside my house four hours after the attack.” He claims his phones were bugged after 9/11, and adds, “I thought these guys [Atta and his associates] were double agents. Why is that so incriminating?” (Hopsicker 2004, pp. 149-150)


  • Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Boo Radley wrote: »
    Agreed, I have not seen any evidence of Tafkiri in the strictest definition of the word. However, that does not mean the people in question did not try and blend in and practice some form of deceit that they believed was okay for the greater good. As far as I know once someone becomes martyred their past sins are automatically erased, carte blanche, so that again could fit the ideology in question. It would not be necessary to hide their faith either, in fact it would be silly to attempt to do so in that scenario. I'm not being smart but I don't know what you mean by anamolous.

    It was not my intention to paint the entire concept of a false flag attack as impossible, merely in this case improbable and in my opinion an absurd idea.

    Again, hiding their faith would be more suspicious than not when blending in. I worked with a few people of the Muslim faith in my time and they didn't hide it, indeed practiced it openly, but also were more than happy to go for pints on a Friday. So for someone to hide it might be more suspicious if they come from a Muslim background.

    Regarding your reason for disagreeing I'm not convinced. It is entirely conceivable that people would behave contrary to their ideology, again to conceal an agenda. It's quite a leap to make that "People who would kill themselves for their faith would come from very strict Islamic ideology." would not be willing or even believe that they can behave in a manner not fitting that ideology in the name of their God's ultimate goals.

    I again refer to what being martyred apparently does for the soul.

    Maybe I made up the word "anamolous" :D replace with paradoxical.

    Other than that I think you are missing the point. I agree with you to an extent on certain aspects a) Becoming a martyr in the Islamic sense does cleanse the soul of past transgressions and is a gateway to paradise giving the hijackers carte blanche to behave as they felt/or were advised was neccessary to complete their mission with the end justifying the means.

    BUT,

    Atta's behaviour was not reflective of someone trying to "blend in"; not even close. To blend in would involve him living the simple life of an Egyptian middle-class immigrant, a secular Arab and/or moderate Muslim studying to become a pilot. His apparent gambling, drinking, drug taking, penchant for pork and strip clubs etc not to mention his drunken public outbursts and anti-American rants made him a magnet for police attention and a serious liabilty. These actions are conflicting with your point of blending in and are therefore unexplained.

    I'd speculate that perhaps he was having some kind of breakdown due to his impending death and murder of others, perhaps was questioning his faith and was becoming self-destructive.

    Another possibilty is that Atta and crew were exemplary Muslims in the Jihadi sense and to prevent them becoming Shaheeda and an inspiration all this "unislamic" stuff is pure fabrications to diminish the hijackers amongst Islamic fundamentalists.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭Di0genes


    With respect, WTF has Hopsicker speaking at a conference got to do with Atta? he fact

    The fact that he hangs around with liars and convicts is very telling though
    Talk about reaching, guilt by association ain't gonna explain Atta's bizarre behavioural patterns.

    Unless of course all these claims about Atta simply aren't true.

    1.Evidence please that Keller is a "habitual liar".

    She lied extensively about her relationship with Atta.

    There's habitual lying.
    2. You have not discredited him.

    The fact that he didn't do any secondary research exposes him as a hack.
    3. That ****ty article quoting an anonymous source is not evidence of anything.

    It quoted Keller for start.

    4. You take the word unquestionably of a "habitual liar" and a "fraud" as long as it's convenient for you? WTF...:confused:

    She's a liar, she admits it. She lied in interviews, she now says she was dating a different Mohammed and made up that it was Mohammed Atta. She made up many stories, and has since retracted them
    5. Could you please explain why on earth anyone would pretend to be the lover of the 9-11 lead hijacker?

    Drama? Excitement? Some deep ceded personal problems

    Why did some people claim they were sent Anthrax in 2001
    Why did Alicia Esteve Head claim her finance was killed in the World Trade Centre Attack?
    Have you never heard of Münchausen syndrome?

    Jesus BB if this is your defence it's pretty weak.


    Snippets rom the brief article


    Keller was first put forward as Atta's lover by the mainstream media not "conspiracy theorists"

    Keller, put herself forward

    How convenient:rolleyes:

    (That we won't bother mentioning)

    Why the rolly eyes really helps your piece
    :eek: So the FBI hasn't considered that the lead 9-11 hijacker would have been convering his tracks?

    Yet in Keller's description and the whole point of your entire piece, is that Atta according to Keller was acting strange in very public ways

    I mean this is the same Atta who according to Keller
    • 4. Keller dumped him after he embarrassed her at a night club by dancing, poorly, atop a speaker ("doing that old 'Roxbury head bob' thing, you know"?)

    • 5. Atta revenged himself later on Keller by returning to the apartment they’d shared and killing her cat and kittens, disemboweling and dismembering them in her apartment for her to find.

    • 6. In Miami, Atta consorted with women known to be linked to the Mafia.

    • 7. Atta’s email list included names of people who worked for defense contractors. One, for instance, worked for Canadian firm Virtual Prototypes, which helped develop the avionics for F-15, F-22 and B-2.

    This is the same guy who you think hides his phone recorders to his girlfriend, but lets her have access to his e-mail?

    Seriously BB?
    This goes back to point 5 Diogenes -

    5. Could you please explain why on earth anyone would pretend to be the lover of the 9-11 lead hijacker?

    Again Alicia Esteve Head. Fake Anthrax Victims. Why do innocent people confess to being serial killers? Why did John Humble successfully pretend to be the Yorkshire Ripper? Why did Tom Mc Masters pretend be to a Syria Lesbian Blogger?

    This isn't a isolated incident Brown Bomber, people do it for notoriety, for attention or for fame.

    Kellner admits at the time of 2001, she was taking drugs and working as a stripper, and now has changed her name and is a trainee nurse, maybe she wasn't in a very happy place in 2001 and started this lie.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭Di0genes


    Stephanie Frederickson, a resident at the Sandpiper Apartments, later remembers Keller and Atta. She claims Keller moved in next door to her. She goes on to say, “Then one day in the middle of March she brought home Atta.” Her recollection of Atta mirrors that of others. She will call him “a really nasty guy,” and say that he “had no patience, and seemed mad at the world.”

    Charles Grapentine,
    the manager of the Sandpiper Apartments, later recalls seeing Atta at the complex for about three weeks in April, and confirms that he was living with Keller.

    Keller’s mother, Susan Payne, also meets Atta and later says, “I didn’t like him; he just seemed strange.”

    As well as his stay at the Sandpiper Apartments, the man, possibly Atta, briefly rents a home in North Port. Its owners, Tony and Vonnie LaConca, know him only as “Mohamed.” They will be questioned in the days after 9/11 by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement (FDLE), and describe him as 25 years old, “very polite,” “very handsome,” and with “beautiful, unblemished skin.” From talking with “Mohamed” and Keller, the couple learns he is training for a commercial pilot’s license at Huffman Aviation, the Venice flight school attended by Atta in 2000 (see July 6-December 19, 2000).

    The Sarasota Herald-Tribune will claim that Keller’s companion is not Mohamed Atta, but another man of Middle Eastern descent who also took flying lessons in Venice. But authorities will refuse to reveal the full name of this “unidentified fifth man,” and investigators are reportedly unable to find him.


    According to official accounts, plus the testimony of Huffman Aviation’s owner Rudi Dekkers, Atta left the Venice flight school around the end of 2000, months before “Mohamed” stays in the apartment of Keller. (US Congress 3/19/2002; US Congress 9/26/2002; 9/11 Commission 8/21/2004, pp. 17 pdfbw.png)

    Keller, Charles Grapentine, and Stephanie Frederickson will all later allege that the FBI intimidated them after 9/11, and told them to keep quiet about what they knew (see (September 12, 2001-2002)). http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=charles_grapentine_1&printerfriendly=true



    button0-share.gif

    (September 12, 2001-2002): FBI Intimidates Witnesses Who Saw Atta in Venice; Tells Them to Keep Quiet


    A number of witnesses who claim they saw Mohamed Atta living in Venice, Florida in early 2001 later allege that, in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks, they are intimidated by the FBI and told to keep quiet about what they knew. Amanda Keller, who claims to have lived with Atta during early 2001 (see (February-April 2001)), later says that, even after she moved away from Venice, FBI agents called her every other day for several months after the attacks. She tells investigative reporter Daniel Hopsicker about “intimidation by the FBI” that she suffered, adding, “They told me not to talk to anybody, to keep my mouth shut.



    Stephanie Frederickson, who remembers Keller and Atta living next door to her in the Sandpiper Apartments in Venice, later recalls, “At first, right after the attack, [the FBI] told me I must have been mistaken in my identification. Or they would insinuate that I was lying. Finally they stopped trying to get me to change my story, and just stopped by once a week to make sure I hadn’t been talking to anyone. Who was I going to tell? Most everyone around here already knew.”



    Charles Grapentine, the manager of the Sandpiper Apartments, also confirms Atta having lived with Keller. He says that, after 9/11, the FBI “called me a liar, and told me to keep my mouth shut.” (Hopsicker 2004, pp. 62-63, 65 and 88-89)


    According to the FBI’s account of events, Atta had left Venice by late December 2000 or early January 2001. Its account makes no mention of him returning there later. (US Congress 9/26/2002) A former manager at Huffman Aviation, the Venice flight school attended by Atta in late 2000 (see July 6-December 19, 2000), also later alleges that the FBI intimidated him and told him to keep quiet. He says the FBI was “outside my house four hours after the attack.” He claims his phones were bugged after 9/11, and adds, “I thought these guys [Atta and his associates] were double agents. Why is that so incriminating?” (Hopsicker 2004, pp. 149-150)


    Did you even read into this at all Brown Bomber

    Kellner lived with a Mohammed Arajak.

    Who also went to the flight school.

    Your precious little Hopsicker even explored the idea.

    Keller then appears to have gone back on that, allowing Hopsicker to interview her (although in his book "Welcome to Terrorland" he does say she knew him as "Mohamed Arajki").

    Arajki even contacted Hopsicker to set the record straight

    http://www.madcowprod.com/05022005.html

    magicatta.jpg

    He's a tall good looking man unlike the 5-7 Atta.

    http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Amanda_Keller


    They're consistently talking about someone called Mohammed, not Mohammed Atta.

    I put it to you what's more plausible. That Amanda Keller dated a different Mohammed who went to the flight school, and she made up all this nonsense in a flight of fancy that she now deeply regrets, and is now desperately trying to forget.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 485 ✭✭Boo Radley


    Maybe I made up the word "anamolous" :D replace with paradoxical.

    Other than that I think you are missing the point. I agree with you to an extent on certain aspects a) Becoming a martyr in the Islamic sense does cleanse the soul of past transgressions and is a gateway to paradise giving the hijackers carte blanche to behave as they felt/or were advised was neccessary to complete their mission with the end justifying the means.

    BUT,

    Atta's behaviour was not reflective of someone trying to "blend in"; not even close. To blend in would involve him living the simple life of an Egyptian middle-class immigrant, a secular Arab and/or moderate Muslim studying to become a pilot. His apparent gambling, drinking, drug taking, penchant for pork and strip clubs etc not to mention his drunken public outbursts and anti-American rants made him a magnet for police attention and a serious liabilty. These actions are conflicting with your point of blending in and are therefore unexplained.

    I'd speculate that perhaps he was having some kind of breakdown due to his impending death and murder of others, perhaps was questioning his faith and was becoming self-destructive.

    Another possibilty is that Atta and crew were exemplary Muslims in the Jihadi sense and to prevent them becoming Shaheeda and an inspiration all this "unislamic" stuff is pure fabrications to diminish the hijackers amongst Islamic fundamentalists.

    My point with regard blending in was to highlight that there is likely a simple reason for the behaviour. Let us not forget that even religious zealots are human and can behave accordingly.

    Perhaps it was not an attempt to blend it. Perhaps it was taking advantage of the martyrdom that awaited him or indeed he was struggling with what he was going to do and, like so many, lost himself in drugs and the like to distract himself from confronting what was bothering him. Of course, he may just have liked to party and act the prick.

    In summation, he probably did behave as reported and there is no reason to think there was anymore to it because some people can't reconcile how a religious zealot could behave so very non-religiously. He was a human after all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭jackiebaron


    Boo Radley wrote: »
    Of all the conspiracy theories the only one which might have some legs would be 'it was allowed to happen'.

    I don't believe for a second that the US had a hand in the planning.

    The only trouble is I have not heard or seen of any convincing evidence that would suggest that it was even allowed to happen. I believe it is more likely that it was inter-agency poor communication and ultimately incompetence that were the reasons behind the planned attacks on 9/11 not being intercepted and prevented.

    Actually 'allowed it to happen' probably has more weight than poor communication since they apparently had advance warning from multiple international security services.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭Di0genes


    Actually 'allowed it to happen' probably has more weight than poor communication since they apparently had advance warning from multiple international security services.

    Thats what's referred to as Monday morning quartedbacking, "they should have spotted X piece of intelligence, or Y piece of intelligence" amid all the chatter.

    Perhaps with the benefit of hindsight the US government should have picked up all the signs. Epimetheus was Prometheus's brother. He was unlike prometheus "wise after the event". It's very easy to be critical and to spot the evidence the day after and say "oh they should have seen the evidence, they must have known".....


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