Law graduate workin in recession

MilkTheGroup

I'm a law grad with a 2.1 degree and masters. Have been out of college a year now and haven't managed to get any legal work since I've left. I don't want to qualify as a solicitor or barrister but I would like to work in a paralegal role like a legal executive or legal researcher. I comb the internet everyday and apply for any such jobs. Is there anything I could do to make myself more attractive to employers?

I have very limited experience (I did 2 weeks work experience in a commercial law firm in dublin city last summer and I recently started an unpaid FAS graduate placement programme in a solicitors (2 weeks). I had to leave though as I was offered paid admin work elsewhere and felt I couldn't refuse given that I was not in receipt of full social welfare.

chops018

I know the feeling, I just finished up my masters there the end of April (bar having to finish a dissertation haha) but I sent out copious amounts of CV's to law offices all over the place, and I only got one interview and I wasn't successful. The guy gave me good advice though, he said I just need to get my foot in the door and just get a few months experience under my belt. I told him that financially that wouldn't work unless I got it locally which probably wouldn't happen. I am getting social welfare now and would be glad of some experience but I wouldn't be able to afford going any further than 10-15 miles away every day being on the social welfare. It's such a pity and it is really tough to get your foot in the door. I think maybe you should have stayed in the work placement.

Also what was the placement like, I am going to keep my eye out for local placements now and maybe apply to local firms asking them about it too. So some info on what I could expect to be doing would be appreciated. I am planning to do the FE-1's next Spring aswell though, so maybe a job in general for me might not be a bad idea moneywise, but the experience could be hugely helpful (for a few months anyway, although it would have to be local for financial reasons).

FreudianSlippers

What are you looking to do? I mean surely there are jobs out there for non-professional law grads in lecturing as well as some in-house work.

Keep in mind though that this is a time that many solicitors and barristers are leaving the profession to go in-house at companies and it's likely most of these will take "professional" lawyers over non.

In saying that though, surely there must be some type of job to get your foot in. Perhaps a legal secretarial course?

chops018

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

What are you looking to do? I mean surely there are jobs out there for non-professional law grads in lecturing as well as some in-house work.

Keep in mind though that this is a time that many solicitors and barristers are leaving the profession to go in-house at companies and it's likely most of these will take "professional" lawyers over non.

In saying that though, surely there must be some type of job to get your foot in. Perhaps a legal secretarial course?

I don't like sounding snobby but I personally would not like to have to do a legal secretary course to get my foot in the door after completing a Masters, even a research assistant job would be hugely better than that. Although there is none of them (barley even any unpaid positions these days just to get something down on the CV).

Also a lecturing job would be very hard to get, that's just going on the university I went to, maybe in smaller colleges it would be easier but I don't even know how you would go about applying!

mikemac

Would you do compliance in financial services?

FreudianSlippers

chops018 wrote: »

I don't like sounding snobby but I personally would not like to have to do a legal secretary course to get my foot in the door after completing a Masters, even a research assistant job would be hugely better than that. Although there is none of them (barley even any unpaid positions these days just to get something down on the CV).

Also a lecturing job would be very hard to get, that's just going on the university I went to, maybe in smaller colleges it would be easier but I don't even know how you would go about applying!

I know what you mean... I wouldn't want to do it either, but sometimes it's the only way in through a job you're way overqualified for.
That's what I'm hearing around at least.

chops018

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I know what you mean... I wouldn't want to do it either, but sometimes it's the only way in through a job you're way overqualified for.
That's what I'm hearing around at least.

that's the way it's gone now, it would be better than sitting at home doing nothing. You will be making contacts and gaining valuable experience. It will all lead towards better things I'd say!

Manach

As a suggestion, perhaps a conversion course to another subject, such as IT? Legal skills would be transferable to that area, and it would provide background depth to Computer law subjects such as NDAs, patents, licencing agreements etc.

Naikon

chops018 wrote: »

I don't like sounding snobby but I personally would not like to have to do a legal secretary course to get my foot in the door after completing a Masters, even a research assistant job would be hugely better than that.

With this attitude, you will fail. While a Degree is nice to have, your lack of experience will hold you down. You can't afford to be picky. A Degree does NOT afford the right to a high paying job. A Degree proves very little in lieu of actual work experience.

Naikon

Manach wrote: »

As a suggestion, perhaps a conversion course to another subject, such as IT? Legal skills would be transferable to that area, and it would provide background depth to Computer law subjects such as NDAs, patents, licencing agreements etc.

Don't get me started on Patents...

Thankfully, IT is proabably too complex an area for most practicing lawyers today. The boundries are very muddy when you compare the field to traditional areas.

chops018

Naikon wrote: »

With this attitude, you will fail. While a Degree is nice to have, your lack of experience will hold you down. You can't afford to be picky. A Degree does NOT afford the right to a high paying job. A Degree proves very little in lieu of actual work experience.

Fair enough, and thanks for the tip. It really is the Catch-22, you go to college get all this education but when you try to hit the working world you have little or no experience, and so you will not be taken on or given a high position.

Might just get try to get a job in general and tackle to FE-1's next year, seems to be the best way to further my 'career'.

MilkTheGroup

chops018 wrote: »

I think maybe you should have stayed in the work placement.

Also what was the placement like, I am going to keep my eye out for local placements now and maybe apply to local firms asking them about it too. So some info on what I could expect to be doing would be appreciated. I am planning to do the FE-1's next Spring aswell though, so maybe a job in general for me might not be a bad idea moneywise, but the experience could be hugely helpful (for a few months anyway, although it would have to be local for financial reasons).

I really had to leave to be honest! I was spending a chunk of my social welfare on trips to work and then I was offered this admin job that would give me three times my social welfare.

My duties were compiling database of clients, files opened, answering phones, digital dictation.
I did gain some experience in the placement and the solicitor was very nice. However in my first week while I was there I was called for an interview for a traineeship in a small solicitors in dublin city and a legal exec job in an software company. The solicitor told me she felt I shouldn't be going to interviews while I was there which I taught didn't make sense as the whole point of the placement is to help me get paid legal work!!

The solicitor was very young and only starting out, had no staff and business was EXTREMELY slow (the phone would ring once a day!) so I felt that realistically there probably would be no work for me with her at the end of the 9 months which would be soul destroying after working that long unpaid. I felt I couldn't take that risk when I was lucky enough to be offered this full-time paid admin job.

I was never very keen on the law in college thats why i dont want to be a solicitor. Im actually starting a primary teaching postgrad in september. it is 2 years long and allows me to work full-time during it so I was hoping that with my degree and masters I would be able to get legal work for those 2 years to get me by financially before I exited it into teaching. But if working 9 months unpaid is what it'll take it wouldn't be worth my while, I'd only have a year left of the postgrad and I still mightn't get any paid legal work. I probably shouldn't have started the placement at all but I was desperate for any way to get work and I thought maybe the solicitor would top up my social welfare slightly :P but they play it by the book!!

impr0v

If I was an unemployed law grad I would learn Chinese then, if a good working knowledge of the language didn't make me worth taking a punt on here, I would hit Australia, and then Hong Kong. A lot of effort, but it would exponentially improve one's prospects in the medium to long term in my opinion, and it would be easier to approach when one has just left the education system.

They are my two cents.

FreudianSlippers

impr0v wrote: »

If I was an unemployed law grad I would learn Chinese then, if a good working knowledge of the language didn't make me worth taking a punt on here, I would hit Australia, and then Hong Kong. A lot of effort, but it would exponentially improve one's prospects in the medium to long term in my opinion, and it would be easier to approach when one has just left the education system.

They are my two cents.

Not to be pedantic, but Cantonese is what you'd want to learn; Standard Chinese is the Mandarin dialect.

Thirdfox

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Not to be pedantic, but Cantonese is what you'd want to learn; Standard Chinese is the Mandarin dialect.

Mandarin and English would be the two major business languages in HK, a good HK businessman would definitely understand Mandarin and speak it to at least a basic level.

And by learning Mandarin you will be understood by the mainlanders too, as opposed to Cantonese. For business reasons I'd definitely stick to Mandarin even if you go to hk.

...But you may need to learn both traditional and simplified script

FreudianSlippers

Thirdfox wrote: »

Mandarin and English would be the two major business languages in HK, a good HK businessman would definitely understand Mandarin and speak it to at least a basic level.

And by learning Mandarin you will be understood by the mainlanders too, as opposed to Cantonese. For business reasons I'd definitely stick to Mandarin even if you go to hk.

...But you may need to learn both traditional and simplified script

A friend in the legal profession over there said quite a lot of legal business is conducted in Cantonese being the official language of HK, but you are right that Mandarin is a much larger and widely spoken language in most business.

He could have been bull****ting though

whydoibother?

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

A friend in the legal profession over there said quite a lot of legal business is conducted in Cantonese being the official language of HK, but you are right that Mandarin is a much larger and widely spoken language in most business.

He could have been bull****ting though

I think that's right. My Mandarin teacher said Cantonese is what's mainly spoken in HK, but that business people would be able to speak Mandarin too normally. She wasn't specifically talking about law though. Of course, they're both written nearly the same way using a similar alphabet, which would be helpful for reading documents, but they're spoken totally differently.

Thirdfox

Simplified Chinese and Traditional Chinese scripts are very very different (especially for one who has only learnt one type as a foreign language).

Just type some stuff in google translate - translate it to Chinese and then translate that into traditional Chinese and you'll see the difference. There are words in traditional that don't exist in simplified, and simplified has reduced the character strokes for a large number of traditional characters. We don't use an "alphabet" as such.

Bai hua (cantonese) is spoken mainly in the southern regions of China but the majority can understand mandarin. If you were working in law in HK I'd imagine you would be much better equipped with English and Mandarin than English and Cantonese (English is an official language of HK too to the best of my knowledge). Cantonese would help when buying delicious food from street vendors though

Or, go work in a Shanghai firm - though there's Shanghai-nese to deal with there too...

Chris Hansen

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