Tracing family in cork questions...

dido2

I've been dipping in and out of the online census for a few months now, I think I have my grandmothers family but can't be sure...

We know both my grandparents dates of deaths so would this be enough to get their death certificates and if we did would it give us anymore information on it like date of birth so we could get birth certs??

I've seen an archive office in great william o brien street in cork being mentioned, I'm in cork so what records does the office hold does anyone know???

pinkypinky

When did your grandparents die?
If it is pre-1958 we can help you find the death index reference online and then you can just order those certs. If it is more recent, you can go into that register office in cork and get the certs that way (name, place and date of death will be enough for them to find it).

Death certs pre-2008 do not have DOBs. You can use the census combined with online indexes to narrow down a list of probable birth certs. If you have a read of the sticky at the top of the forum, it gives full details of what's on each type of cert and how to use the indexes.

A marriage cert yields the most information and is easiest to narrow down online. If you know both your grandparents birth names (ie, grandmothers maiden name too), an approximate year of marriage and the location, post them up and we'll help you find the index reference so you can order their marriage cert. That will have their fathers' names, so then you should be able to confirm the census records.

dido2

Thanks pinkypinky

My grandfather died in 1964 my grandmother in 1994, I've been quizzing my mother again today and she knows her dad died when he was 49 so that gives him a year of birth as 1915 and he was born in may so getting there, she also remembered 6 of his siblings names too so more info once again...

She knows her mothers fathers name too but not entirely sure of her mothers mothers name, my grandmother was born in 1912 and theres a name that matches my grandmothers father pretty much where my mother thinks they came from too that has him at 19 in 1911 which if it's him means he married my grandmothers mother either in 1911 or 1912, my grandmother was born at the end of 1912.... but we don't know anything other than a possible first name for my grandmothers mother....

We don't know when my grandparents got married either but the oldest in my mothers family turned 70 this year so I'm assuming it could be around that time which could be 1940...

Grandfathers name, Tomas O Sullivan Grandmothers Maiden name Ann O Shea, possibly married 1940 or beforehand, in around the city centre as far as we know.. not sure if that info will help or not...

pinkypinky

dido2 wrote: »

Thanks pinkypinky
Grandfathers name, Tomas O Sullivan Grandmothers Maiden name Ann O Shea, possibly married 1940 or beforehand, in around the city centre as far as we know.. not sure if that info will help or not...

Just for clarity: in Cork?

Please don't take any ages as gospel. People would get them wrong. Some examples from my own family:

Grandmother died 2004 - age incorrect on death cert
Her father died 1929 - she actually told me the wrong year
Her grandfather records his own daughter and son in law's ages incorrectly on the census, as well as how long he has been married.
Great-great grandfather recorded as single aged 40 on census in London, when he was in fact 50, married and a grandfather! Family was in Limerick, he was an MP.

pinkypinky

Name: Anne Shea
Registration District: Cork
Event Type: MARRIAGES
Registration Quarter and Year: Oct - Dec 1940
Volume Number: 5
Page Number: 83

Name: Thomas O'Sullivan
Registration District: Cork
Event Type: MARRIAGES
Registration Quarter and Year: Oct - Dec 1940
Volume Number: 5
Page Number: 83

Here's one match.
There's no other obvious matches but if you want to doublehcheck:
http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#surname=o%27sullivan&toYear=1940&alivePlaceLoc1=Cork%2C%20Ireland&placeId=8003246&p=recordResults&givenName=tomas&year=1935&searchType=close

http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#searchType=close&p=recordResults&placeId=8003246&givenName=ann&surname=o%27shea&toYear=1940&alivePlaceLoc1=Cork%2C%20Ireland&year=1935

You want to get it match in registration district, year, quarter of the year, volume and page number.

If you want to order the above cert, you can do some in writing /fax to the GRO - look at the sticky at the top of the forum for the full details on that.

dido2

Thanks for that!! Now for probably the stupid question what can I do with that info can I go and get a marriage cert with that info??

Yes in Cork City Centre.....

From looking around on websites I've found that ages and dates of birth are a bit hit and miss with people!

So if we were to get their death certs would it give their DOB's or would that have been based on who gave them the info for the death cert??

pinkypinky

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055579524

The sticky I mentioned has all the details - a few posts down on the first page.

dido2

Thanks Pinkypinky, just looking to the thread at the moment.....

They look like a good match

dido2

Another question...

The entries in both Page Number and Volume number, is there a close link between other records having the same or is it a huge amount of records under these numbers???

pinkypinky

I think there's up to 4 marriages recorded on each page but they'll only give you the one with the names you mention. This does mean there's a tiny chance that someone else on that page will have the same name as one of your parties. I've never had this happen to me though.

dido2

Its actually a birth record from 1887 with the same volume number and page number as the 2 links you posted above for my grandparents...

It just caught my eye


name: Margaret O'Shea
registration district: Cork
event type: BIRTHS
registration quarter and year: Oct - Dec 1887
estimated birth year:
age (at death):
mother's maiden name:
film number: 101061
volume number: 5
page number: 83
digital folder number: 4193975
image number: 00666

shanew

I believe that marriages were kept in separate registers - i.e. just 2 to 4 marriages per page (no births or deaths mixed in). The register pages have pre-printed forms for entering the details.

I would think that birth record record you have found is an unusual coincidence.


Shane

pinkypinky

I'd agree with Shane there - just a coincidence.

dido2

Thanks shanew and pinkypinky, thought as much but thought I'd check just in case...

Another question, when it comes to burials, when you've grave plot with different suranames on it, is there any pattern as to who is often buried with who, I think I've read that sometimes the woman will be buried with her own family even if she has married...

both my grandparents are buried together, but there are 2 others buried there, one with the same surname as my grandfather so possibly family member, maybe mother, and then theres another man who was buried in 185? couldn't read anymore from the grave stone....

pinkypinky

Graves were resold over time if no one was maintaining them so you can get strangers in the same one but I'm not familiar with any particular usage patterns. Never heard of a married woman being buried with her own family.

CeannRua

I don't think you can say burials followed a definitive logic - it is more of a personal thing. In my own family it was sometimes down to there being a space in a grave / plot or someone expressing a desire not to be buried alone. One of my gg grandmothers is buried with her own family.

debarran

Hi

My grandmother is buried with her parents, I believe it was because she died very young (36) and possibly because this grave was already there - as money was scarce I imagine my grandfather had no money to buy a new grave. He is buried on his own in a different graveyard but is not on his own as his son and daughter are buried in the same graveyard.

P. Breathnach

pinkypinky wrote: »

Graves were resold over time if no one was maintaining them so you can get strangers in the same one but I'm not familiar with any particular usage patterns. Never heard of a married woman being buried with her own family.

We had some discussion touching on that a while ago: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056069528

My grandmother died young, and I think the grave where she was buried belonged to her people: her father was buried in it later, but not her husband, who went into a new grave that was later shared by his second wife.

There is a sean nós song that I very much like: Amhrán Mhúinse. It appears to be rooted in reality, and the name of the composer is known. It is her deathbed request to be brought back to her home place and be buried with her own people, and not with the strangers among whom she lived with her husband. [She didn't get her wish!]

Wyldwood

I don't think it was too unusual to bury people apart in past times.
My two sets of grandparents are buried apart. My paternal grandparents are in the same graveyard but in different plots. I'm presuming that is because the plot my grandfather is in was full when my grandmother died years later. He was buried with my grandmother's family (parents etc.).
My other grandparents are in different graveyards. My grandfather died young and was taken back to his family grave, my grandmother probably didn't have the means to buy a new plot as she had a young family at the time and had to go to work to support them after his death. When she died she was buried in a new plot in a city graveyard now occupied by her daughter and son-in-law also.

dido2

Thanks for all the replies!

I've spent hours in the past days looking through all the online resources, I think now I have found records for all of my own grand parents and also my husbands grandparents, both of his grandmothers had surnames that weren't all that common so a lot easier to pin down, I also found marriage records for both mine and my husbands grandparents too, so some fun and expensive times ahead!!

Anyone who has use the GRO option of ordering records how long does it take to get them once you have the name, volume number and page number, going to do it this morning.... and also is it just best that I print out all of the names, volume numbers etc and attach it to the application form??

pinkypinky

I have faxed them my order before with my credit card details on it - always been fine. I fill in what I can on the form (obviously set up for living or recently dead people with PPS numbers, etc) and enclose a cover note with the page/vol details from Familysearch.

Make sure you only tick the box for the cheap copy certs at €6 (this includes a search fee at €2 which technically you shouldn't pay because you've given them the full details but I always pay it anyway.

Normally it'll be less than 10 working days but I don't know if there's any particular backlog at the minute.

dido2

Thanks Pinkypinky

If you've got a good few to get do you put them all on individual applications or can you do it in bulk with just one application form with credit card details on it??

kilsmum

Pinkypinky,

Just to let you know the first time I sent off for certs to the GRO I sent a cheque covering €6 per cert to include the search fee (even though I had all the information like you).

A couple of weeks later I got a postal order from the GRO refunding me the difference between the €6 and the €4 - since then I just send the €4 per cert.


Kilsmum

pinkypinky

dido2 wrote: »

Thanks Pinkypinky

If you've got a good few to get do you put them all on individual applications or can you do it in bulk with just one application form with credit card details on it??

I just do one with form with all details on my cover note.

dido2

Thanks kilsmum and pinkypinky

I had sent them an email last week and they said it was €4 per copy because I already had the details...

Just putting them altogether now and will pop them in the post today, will be like a child waiting on the post for the next week then!!!

We're all enjoying it though, had my mother in law going through all of her family at the weekend and it's just funny what comes up...

P. Breathnach

Genealogy can be a cheap hobby!

dido2

Well so far I consider it cheap anyway!! The entertainment factor for me is great, my 3 young kids might not agree though!!!!

Have 4 Marriage certs now and 4 birth certs that i'd be certain are right due to right maiden names that aren't the usual names and also right dates so let the fun begin!!!

dido2

Well got them all back in the post today, both of my own sets of grand parents Marriage records are correct, not entirely sure about my husbands grand parents..

My Grandmother on my fathers side it has always been said she was in an orphanage, but my dad says they were always told to be quite when they asked questions, but theres a name listed for her father on her marriage cert but he's listed as dead so that all seems right, but we kind of feel there might be something more, but next question is are records connected, I have my grandparents dates of birth, date of marriage and date of death, would that be enough to get their birth certs??
I got 2 possible ones for my mothers parents but I know one of them isn't right, but I'm not sure of the other one, not convinced it is though either, but would like to get all grand parents birth certs to get their mothers names as I have their fathers names now...

pinkypinky

The records are not connected (they are nowadays but even that is dependent on the informant giving the information).

Use the LDS index to find the possibles - if you have the exact name and birthdate you should be able to narrow it down reasonably well and then order. If there's more than one possibility, unfortunately you'll just have to guess or order them all.

dido2

This is where the problems lie, I can't find any major links for Births for any of my grandparents only my maternal grandmother which I did get but I'm none the wiser really because its a year later than we thought she was born, fathers name has an O where he doesn't in her marriage cert but I know both of these things are considered variables anyway, last grandparent to die was in 2003, then 1999, 1994 and 1964, what are the chances of being able to get their birth certs based on the info I have that I don't think is right in terms of the year any of them were born....

pinkypinky

A year out and an O are sufficiently minor - it's probably her.

You have your grandparents' marriage certs - the ages are more likely to be correct on them than later on. If it says full for the age, that's not going to be helpful though. You could possibly check electoral registers? I'm not sure of the survival rates for Cork but the library would be the placed to go. People had to be 21 to vote until the 70s. I presume they're all too young for the 1911 census?

If you want to post details, maybe we can help?

dido2

Thanks Pinkypinky...

Yes all grandparents just too young for census, but have found possibles for their parents....

My Paternal grandfather has a DOB of 7th Dec 1921 in Cork
This one is the closest one that I've found to it, https://www.familysearch.org/search/recordDetails/show?uri=https://api.familysearch.org/records/pal:/MM9.1.r/MNSZ-LLV/p1 given that he was a dec birth possibly not registered until Jan, but again we've got the whole O thing that I know has come up in conversation in the family that it wasn't there for a while then it came back again...

My Paternal Grandmother is a bit unsure because no one knows where she came from only that she ended up living in the same locality as to where she ended up bringing up her own family with a family she considered her her family, but all kids born after her and the woman of the house wasn't married when my GM was born, but we do have a fathers name listed on her marriage cert, I've hit zero with her but I assume she may have had another name at birth possibly and changed it herself later on, anyway she was born 6th May 1926 and this is the record I used to get her marriage record https://www.familysearch.org/search/recordDetails/show?uri=https://api.familysearch.org/records/pal:/MM9.1.r/MFPM-FHL/p1

My Maternal grandmother I have gotten a Result with a birth record, right name for father but the O again, they both have it on the birth cert and then it's not there for the marriage cert, the address I'm not sure on either, but it's highly possible that it's right because it's in cork city centre
She has a DOB of Nov 22/23rd 1912 in Cork City, I used the link you gave earlier in the thread for her Marriage cert https://www.familysearch.org/search/recordDetails/show?uri=https://api.familysearch.org/records/pal:/MM9.1.r/MFGN-746/p1
and this is what I got https://www.familysearch.org/search/recordDetails/show?uri=https://api.familysearch.org/records/pal:/MM9.1.r/MN99-V4H/p1 and it has a DOB of Nov 22nd, fathers name as Daniel O Shea, Fathers name on Marriage Cert is Daniel Shea with the right address on that for them both..

Maternal Grandfather we now have a name for his father, plus an address but on looking at guys almanac for that area it seems there are a few houses in an area at that time, I don't have a mothers name for his but we do have a rough idea of his DOB being May 1915 my mother said he was about 49 when he died in May 1964 but again I wouldn't be entirely convinced she was right about his age either so could be a year or two out..

I have looked at the census and found a variation of 15 years in age between one person in 1901 and 1911 so I'd imagine age is a big variable in all of these things!

I'm going find out what church would have been the parish church for my Maternal grandparents area as it might have baptismal records for that time and we might get a birth cert...

pinkypinky

I'll do some digging when I get a chance and see what I can find. Have you considered ordering your grandparents deaths certs (if you don't have them already) because there'd be ages - which may of course not be entirely accurate but would be another clue.

dido2

Yes I was considering their death certs next along with seeing if just having their Dates of births along with possible maiden names for their mothers aswell..

I need to actually put it all together now the parts that are catching me and decided what to do, I was talking to my dad earlier about it and we feel that there must be some connection between the woman who took my nan in because when my nan was born she neither had kids herself or was married from what I can make out of records for her own kids and a possible marriage, not sure how common it was for someone to actually go and adopt a child of possibly 4 or 5 years of age maybe even older when they were just starting their own family, and the general knowledge is that my nan was in an orphange in Passage west in Cork, so her birth cert if it's there might hold some clues or none at all but we feel either way it will tell if she was orphaned or some other sort of story, no matter what its provide constant entertainment for us all....

dido2

Another question...

I decided to start cross referencing marriages between Jeremiah O Sullivans and anyone else who got married at that time, year by year, so I've come across a record for a Jeremiah O Sullivan and Kate O Leary that match up, am I right is saying there wouldn't be another match for that year so I could go on to the next year???

pinkypinky

Well, there's a small possibility that another couple with those names also got married in the same year in the same location but you're probably safe enough.

dido2

Thanks pinky

I've found matches in both 1910 and 1911 now so I'll keep going for another few years....

dido2

Can I ask for some guidance on this whole family thing!!!

Firstly

I've found out my mothers paternal grandmothers name, I got lucky with a birth cert for an uncle of my mothers and we found out her name was Ellen O Sullivan, so she was an O Sullivan and married an O Sullivan!

Secondly

I got a birth cert for a possible aunt of my mothers (her mothers sister), her DOB is as my mother said it was, fathers name is right, mothers name is Kate on one and Catherine on the other, and address is different on both too, but not too far from each other, so question is how would I go about verifying they are sisters, anyone any ideas??

Thirdly

Working my way through my In Laws and I think I've found a possible marriage between my Mother in laws grand parents but its in kerry, they do have kerry links, census records show them married with 2 kids in killarney, but they lived in cork when my mother in laws father was born, so any tips on how I'd work back to them to verify them??

pinkypinky

1) They may well have been related to each other but then again Cork is full of O'Sullivans.

Q2: There's not much difference between Kate & Catherine, though. Are they too young for the census? You can check the baptismal records, if we're talking post 1920s, they'll still be with the church, but they'd probably let you look or check for you if ask nicely! Also, what about electoral registers for later on? Remember that people had to be 21 to vote until the 1970s.

Q3:
I need more info - can you show a census link? What date do you have them in each county?

dido2

Q2

We're talking 1913 and 1917 for my GM and her sister, if I could verify my GM's mothers name I'd be able to try to get their marriage cert, there is one more sister but she's a Mary O Shea so a lot of them but I know she was born between the 2 above so I may be able to narrow them down enough.. I can place my GM' father in the house my mother was born in, in 1945 and he's not there in 1920 so I know that this wasn't always his address..

When did electoral registers start??

Q3

I consulted with an uncle of my husbands last night about this side of the family and between us we came up with a time line his father was the youngest of 9 born in 1930, I've gotten his birth cert and it verifys his parents names, I then found a marriage record for both parents in killarney in 1907
Nora Coffey which I think is this one https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.2/MF22-QDN/p1
and Thomas Walsh https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.2/MF2K-BFK/p1

and this census record for 1911, which I think is the couple above anyway but I think very likely my husbands family, because the 2 kids listed would be the right names for the first 2 kids aswell
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Kerry/Killarney_Urban/Well_Lane__South_/288193/

The story with the family is that the mother Nora was from possibly Killorglin, father was meant to have been from the travelling community but settled when he met this woman and they lived in cork, I've gotten all the kids names along with the married names of the women, and I know also now where most of them were buried so I'm going to take a trip to see if I can get ages for them all to see if they match up roughly with these people above, according to my husbands uncle there is a very strong match because he gave me ages of some of his uncles and aunts before I found these census records so again I need to verify ages of all of the kids to see if they match up but I do think it's the right record...

dido2

Meant to ask this question too, again in the same family there was a woman who was known as a sister rather than a niece, it was one my husbands GF's sisters who was her mother, but she was brought up as his sister and his sister (the woman who had given birth to this woman) went off to england, so in terms of registering the birth would it have been the actual mother or the woman who brought her up as her mother, this girl is still alive and never knew when she was born, I've found 2 possible birth records for her but figured I'd check if there was a certain way these things were done in terms of names on the certs...

pinkypinky

We're talking 1913 and 1917 for my GM and her sister, if I could verify my GM's mothers name I'd be able to try to get their marriage cert, there is one more sister but she's a Mary O Shea so a lot of them but I know she was born between the 2 above so I may be able to narrow them down enough.. I can place my GM' father in the house my mother was born in, in 1945 and he's not there in 1920 so I know that this wasn't always his address..

Why aren't you looking for your grandmother's birth cert here? Is it too common a name?

Re: the grandchild brought up as a child, I just don't know. Get both certs. If I were to guess, I'd say it's correct on the cert...neighbours wouldn't have seen it so no reason to lie.

Re: Kerry people - it looks like a good match. I wouldn't be in a hurry to go to graveyards unless you have been told there's a headstone. He's a general labourer - probably wouldn't have been money for headstones.

dido2

yes i've gotten a birth cert for my GM it's the right DOB on it, right father, same with her sister, it's the different address that keeps niggling at me that while they look like they are the sisters they may not be either.. On researching the familysearch website again though there is no other record for either an Anne O Shea/Ann Shea/ Anne Shea or Ann O shea, that matches my GM's DOB so I'd say I'm right with it.......

I think I'll order those birth certs to see what they hold...

My husbands uncle knew most of his uncles and aunts from his fathers side and was an adult himself when most of them died, he said he knows that most of them are buried in the graveyard he told me about and he gave me the family names as most aren't in their own grave but one of someone else, it's not out of the way either so wouldn't be too much of a hassle to visit it! If can get some rough ages from headstones it might give a stronger link to the census record..