Governing from Havana: Should Hugo Chavez Resign?

southsiderosie

After much speculation, Hugo Chavez confirmed that he is being treated for an unidentified cancer in Havana.

This announcement came in the wake of growing controversy in Venezuela over Chavez's absence from the country. Under Venezuelan law, the president needs permission from the legislature if they are going to be outside of national borders for an extended period of time, and while that has been granted (for now, and not without controversy), with the latest revelation, questions about Chavez's fitness to lead the country - particularly from abroad - have grown louder. It does not help matters that the administration initially denied that there was anything seriously wrong with the president;several weeks ago, the NY Times notes, “Praising Cuba’s health care system, he [Chavez] said that biopsies had not detected any signs of a “malignant” illness.'

I think it is totally inappropriate for the leader of a democracy to 'govern from abroad' for months on end. If Chavez is too ill to carry out his duties and/or his illness is so complex that he needs to go abroad for an extended period to seek treatment, he should either formally delegate power to the vice-president, or step down altogether.

What do others think?

Nijmegen

I think your problem is solved by the fact that Venezuela is not a democracy in the strictest sense of the word.

I wonder what the ordinary sick people of the socialist paradise (which now has the highest murder rate in Latin America, though the government has cleverly stopped publishing official statistics) think of their leader going for his treatment in another country?

Ahh socialism.

wes

It certainly seems that the man is far too ill to carry on running the country. So, yes he should resign, but it looks like he is going to hang on, unfortunately.

20Cent

He's sick and recuperating so what, any other leader no one would bat a eyelid.

Lapin

Tomorrow marks the 200th anniversary of Venezuela's independence from Spain.

If Chavez is too ill to attend the celebrations to mark this event in his own country, he is to ill to govern.

He should go.

Is mise le key

Nijmegen wrote: »

I wonder what the ordinary sick people of the socialist paradise ............ think of their leader going for his treatment in another country?

Ahh socialism.

To another Socialist state that has for 50 years concentrated its efforts in bringing the best health care it possibly can for people.

Given that venezuela has only had since 1999 to work on its Socialist program i find it bizarre you would object he travel to Cuba to seek treatment for his health.

I think you misunderstand the prime reason for Socialism, human dignity & right to Health, Education, Housing as a right before private profits.

Nijmegen

Is mise le key wrote: »

To another Socialist state that has for 50 years concentrated its efforts in bringing the best health care it possibly can for people.

Given that venezuela has only had since 1999 to work on its Socialist program i find it bizarre you would object he travel to Cuba to seek treatment for his health.

I think you misunderstand the prime reason for Socialism, human dignity & right to Health, Education, Housing as a right before private profits.

I understand socialism perfectly well, and I espouse the implementation of many of its elements in our country given that a fairer, better educated and healthy population leads to better economic growth and prosperity for all.

The trouble, I think, is that the leaders of hard socialist countries don't understand socialism.

If Cuba were so great folks wouldn't be rowing away from it to Miami in tiny boats not fit for fishing on a river.

Its healthcare system is great... If you're a foreigner who can pay hard cash. For the ordinary Cuban it's nothing special.

Hard socialist countries are the only ones that ever had to build walls to keep their people in, and they have all failed miserably to deliver prosperity to their people.

The only 'communist' countries that do well are those like China, that drop the communism in favour of capitalism and deliver better lives to their people the same way we do: Through increased wealth from the 'evil' markets that gets redistributed.

Hugo is just another tin pot commie dictator who has seen his country go backwards and further backwards.

Meanwhile, in capitalist Brazil.......................

Lapin

Is mise le key wrote: »

I think you misunderstand the prime reason for Socialism....

Nijmegen wrote: »

I understand socialism perfectly well....

It was only a matter of time before this thread reached off topic land.

But I didn't think it would get there in the first half dozen posts.

Is mise le key

Straight out of the right wing propaganda rhetoric manual.

Nothing about the capitalist imposed economic blockades that have been on Cuba for decades as part of the reason for its hardship.

Is mise le key

Lapin wrote: »

It was only a matter of time before this thread reached off topic land.

But I didn't think it would get there in the first half dozen posts.

Ok fair point,

No he shouldnt resign for availing of medical treatment to save his life.

Boulevardier

Lets not forget that before Chavez, the poor were locked out of the benefits of Venezuela's oil wealth, which was repeatedly squandered by a corrupt elite (Thank God we don't have elites like that here!...).

Chavez had to face down virulent opposition from the middle and upper classes, but he has repeatedly gained a democratic mandate to carry on with reforms which have benefitted the ordinary people.

Yes, he has become too bombastic, and this has won him no friends, but there are worse people than him around, and I think he has as much of a right to remain in office as any other elected leader.

Lapin

Is mise le key wrote: »

Ok fair point,

No he shouldnt resign for availing of medical treatment to save his life.

But should he not step aside while he is recuperating ?

Doesn't the uncertainty over his health and the fact that he remains in Cuba create an uneccessary fear of instability ?

Nijmegen

Is mise le key wrote: »

Straight out of the right wing propaganda rhetoric manual.

Nothing about the capitalist imposed economic blockades that have been on Cuba for decades as part of the reason for its hardship.

Oh snore. Cuba is a popular tourism spot these days apart from anything else, it's doing better than in 1961 thanks to liberalisation.

The reason this debate chimes with Hugo's hanging on in there to power is because just like every other hard socialist tin pot dictator he's more interested in power than prosperity.

Since he came to power things have gone backwards for Venezuelans, to the extent that one of the booming businesses in the country is for ordinary people to armour plate their cars to avoid kidnapping and ransom. The country has overtaken Columbia in that and murder, and is the most unsafe country in Latin America to live in today - a dramatic shift backwards from when Chavez came to power.

The man is typical of a type of regime that has failed utterly to deliver on the promises of socialism, and he will hang on in there just like the rest of his idiot brethren in other countries that continue to lag behind thanks to their own stupidity.

Will he resign? Will he my eye.

Is mise le key

Nijmegen wrote: »

Oh snore. Cuba is a popular tourism spot these days apart from anything else, it's doing better than in 1961 thanks to liberalisation.

The reason this debate chimes with Hugo's hanging on in there to power is because just like every other hard socialist tin pot dictator he's more interested in power than prosperity.

Since he came to power things have gone backwards for Venezuelans, to the extent that one of the booming businesses in the country is for ordinary people to armour plate their cars to avoid kidnapping and ransom. The country has overtaken Columbia in that and murder, and is the most unsafe country in Latin America to live in today - a dramatic shift backwards from when Chavez came to power.

The man is typical of a type of regime that has failed utterly to deliver on the promises of socialism, and he will hang on in there just like the rest of his idiot brethren in other countries that continue to lag behind thanks to their own stupidity.

Will he resign? Will he my eye.

Just to reiterate a point you made,

Oh Snore!

Nijmegen

Is mise le key wrote: »

Just to reiterate a point you made,

Oh Snore!

My point is, men like Chavez don't have a habit of giving up power for the good of the people and they don't have a habit of being successful in their policies in general.

His is a brand of hard socialism that errs to the side of dictatorship, and the further you lose sight of democracy in chasing socialist ideas the worse it gets.

20Cent

Chavez has as much in common with Castro as Thatcher and Pinochet. If the Venezuelans want socialism then let them. Every story about Chavez goes through the right wing noise machine of hyperbole. Remember there was a referendum to increase the number of terms a president could run. It was reported that Chavez had made himself president for life.

Right wing dictatorships in South America have always been supported but left wing democracies are always condemned and attacked.

Nijmegen

20Cent wrote: »

Chavez has as much in common with Castro as Thatcher and Pinochet. If the Venezuelans want socialism then let them. Every story about Chavez goes through the right wing noise machine of hyperbole. Remember there was a referendum to increase the number of terms a president could run. It was reported that Chavez had made himself president for life.

Right wing dictatorships in South America have always been supported but left wing democracies are always condemned and attacked.

Not by me. There are other South American models to follow. Look at the burgeoning prosperity of Brazil, a strong democratic country.

20Cent

Nijmegen wrote: »

Not by me. There are other South American models to follow. Look at the burgeoning prosperity of Brazil, a strong democratic country.

How is Venezuela undemocratic? they have more elections and referendums than any country I've heard of!

Boulevardier

This is all looking a bit academic; apparently, HC is now back in Caracas.

Is mise le key

So to summarise,

He possibly has cancer & goes to a neighbouring Socialist country to save his life & immediatley,

Awwh, look at him the cheek, he should resign, hypocrite blah blah blah.

Now Back in the capital & still defying the capitalist powers that would have him executed in order to control the oil for their benefit.

meditraitor

Looks like there is no more oxegen for the anti chavez brigade in this thread,,,, lock er up boss...


Another US led "hypnotised by false propoganda" thread coming your way in 2 weeks folks...

Nijmegen

Oh give over. He ran to Cuba when he got sick. He's been in power long enough in an OPEC, oil rich country and he can't manage to get hospitals he'd be happy to entrust his life to?

Is mise le key

Nijmegen wrote: »

Oh give over. He ran to Cuba when he got sick. He's been in power long enough in an OPEC, oil rich country and he can't manage to get hospitals he'd be happy to entrust his life to?

OK, if you live in Dublin & your nearest hospital is tallaght, but you are told there are better doctors & expertise in london to treat your case, what do you do?

(note we are assuming we have a Socialist Ireland & England for this hypothesis)

later12

Venezuela is, still, a democracy.
Do folk be hatin their freedom?

Chavez is home, I am sure all concerned are delighted.

Nijmegen

Is mise le key wrote: »

OK, if you live in Dublin & your nearest hospital is tallaght, but you are told there are better doctors & expertise in london to treat your case, what do you do?

(note we are assuming we have a Socialist Ireland & England for this hypothesis)

If I'm an ordinary person, I die in the crappy hospital.

If I'm a self serving president, I take a national jet to London. And then have my family fly over on one too.

If I'm a long serving president who is supposedly for the good of the people, I'd have built a healthcare system that works instead of following failed examples and wondering how I ended up with a failed system.

Is mise le key

Nijmegen wrote: »

If I'm an ordinary person, I die in the crappy hospital.

If I'm a self serving president, I take a national jet to London. And then have my family fly over on one too.

If I'm a long serving president who is supposedly for the good of the people, I'd have built a healthcare system that works instead of following failed examples and wondering how I ended up with a failed system.

And i wish you well on your journey to hospital in london to save your life;)

Boulevardier

"I'd have built a healthcare system that works instead of following failed examples and wondering how I ended up with a failed system."

Good job capitalist Ireland has a healthcare system that works! Oh wait, we haven't.

That girl in Sligo missed her liver transplant thanks to our excellent way of taking care of our citizens.

The Saint

Concentration of executive power, unless it's very temporary and for specific circumstances, such as fighting world war two, is an assault on democracy. You can debate whether Venezuela's circumstances require it: internal circumstances and the external threat of attack, that's a legitimate debate. But my own judgment in that debate is that it does not.

southsiderosie

I don't see what any of this has to do with socialism. The question was, should the head of government be able to disappear indefinitely and govern from abroad? But since Chavez is back in Caracas, this is a moot point for now (in his case anyway, although this could be a theoretical question with or without Chavez). It also remains to be seen how long he will stay in Venezuela.

Is mise le key wrote: »

To another Socialist state that has for 50 years concentrated its efforts in bringing the best health care it possibly can for people.

Given that venezuela has only had since 1999 to work on its Socialist program i find it bizarre you would object he travel to Cuba to seek treatment for his health.

I think you misunderstand the prime reason for Socialism, human dignity & right to Health, Education, Housing as a right before private profits.

Actually, the Venezuelan medical establishment was reportedly pretty pissed that he went to Cuba for treatment, as they have the capacity to treat him at home...Venezuela may not have had a 'socialist program' before, but they have always had very good medical services for the political and economic elite.

Boulevardier wrote: »

Lets not forget that before Chavez, the poor were locked out of the benefits of Venezuela's oil wealth, which was repeatedly squandered by a corrupt elite (Thank God we don't have elites like that here!...)..

This is getting off topic, but one could make an argument that Chavez has squandered the oil wealth of the current prolonged petroleum boom given that many of the country's neighbors managed to reduce poverty at the same time (and some at similar rates) as Venezuela, while also managing to achieve high levels of economic growth, expanding the middle class, maintaining relatively low levels of inflation, and encouraging foreign investment. Venezuela may look better today in terms of poverty reduction than it did 15 years ago, but so does Brazil (and several other Latin American countries), and they managed to do so without attacking democratic institutions, scaring off foreign investors or driving up inflation.

Boulevardier

"they managed to do so without attacking democratic institutions, scaring off foreign investors or driving up inflation."

I agree that investors may have been scared off, but when and where has Chavez "attacked democratic institutions"?

As for the example of Brazil, lets not forget that their government is also socialist, namely the Workers Party.

Is mise le key

Stick this in your pipe & Smoke it:D

mike65

I dunno if he is still in Cuba but he is still making mad statements

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/29/hugo-chavez-us-cancer-plot

"Would it be so strange that they've invented the technology to spread cancer and we won't know about it for 50 years?" Chávez pondered, one day after Argentina's president Cristina Fernández de Kirchner announced she had been diagnosed with thyroid cancer and would undergo surgery in January.

Speaking on Wednesday during an end-of-year address to the armed forces, Chávez hinted that a spate of cancer among the region's leaders could be a US plot – although he conceded he had no proof and did not want to make "reckless" accusations.

"I repeat: I am not accusing anyone. I am simply taking advantage of my freedom to reflect and air my opinions faced with some very strange and hard to explain goings-on," he said at the event, broadcast live on state television.

RichieC

hes always good for a laugh is our hugo. just like you have polititians in the US that make outragious statments.

noone batted an eyelid when the then leader of the free world gwb endorsed teaching biblical creation in science classes or that sadam had nukes. hugo says crazy stuff and its an endictment of the left as a whole and a reason why he dangerous.

eire.man

southsiderosie wrote: »

I don't see what any of this has to do with socialism. The question was, should the head of government be able to disappear indefinitely and govern from abroad? But since Chavez is back in Caracas, this is a moot point for now (in his case anyway, although this could be a theoretical question with or without Chavez). It also remains to be seen how long he will stay in Venezuela.

Is mise le key wrote: »

To another Socialist state that has for 50 years concentrated its efforts in bringing the best health care it possibly can for people.

Given that venezuela has only had since 1999 to work on its Socialist program i find it bizarre you would object he travel to Cuba to seek treatment for his health.

I think you misunderstand the prime reason for Socialism, human dignity & right to Health, Education, Housing as a right before private profits.

Actually, the Venezuelan medical establishment was reportedly pretty pissed that he went to Cuba for treatment, as they have the capacity to treat him at home...Venezuela may not have had a 'socialist program' before, but they have always had very good medical services for the political and economic elite.

Boulevardier wrote: »

Lets not forget that before Chavez, the poor were locked out of the benefits of Venezuela's oil wealth, which was repeatedly squandered by a corrupt elite (Thank God we don't have elites like that here!...)..

This is getting off topic, but one could make an argument that Chavez has squandered the oil wealth of the current prolonged petroleum boom given that many of the country's neighbors managed to reduce poverty at the same time (and some at similar rates) as Venezuela, while also managing to achieve high levels of economic growth, expanding the middle class, maintaining relatively low levels of inflation, and encouraging foreign investment. Venezuela may look better today in terms of poverty reduction than it did 15 years ago, but so does Brazil (and several other Latin American countries), and they managed to do so without attacking democratic institutions, scaring off foreign investors or driving up inflation.

how many of these surround countries success stories have been realised in part with help from the USA? I wouldn't doubt the US would pour as much aid as would be needed to build up every country around Venezuela to make Chavez look bad.

Chavez is a good man IMHO and like I said about Ghadaffi ; if I was standing up to the US and had a country running half right on it own I'd torture the sh1t out of anyone trying to **** it up!!

Jonny7

RichieC wrote: »

hes always good for a laugh is our hugo. just like you have polititians in the US that make outragious statments.

noone batted an eyelid when the then leader of the free world gwb endorsed teaching biblical creation in science classes or that sadam had nukes. hugo says crazy stuff and its an endictment of the left as a whole and a reason why he dangerous.

Type in "George Bush is an idiot" into google - 14.5 million results.

Can't believe someone has to use a false analogy for George Bush, wonders never cease

RichieC

Im not talinkg about the peanut gallery response, Im talkimg about offical responce.

Jonny7

RichieC wrote: »

Im not talinkg about the peanut gallery response, Im talkimg about offical responce.

George Bush doesn't validate anything about Chavez unfortunately.

Benny_Cake

Many of the reforms Chavez has introduced have been very positive - inspiring even.

Unfortunately the man himself is something of a liability, he isn't a dictator but he seems to view himself as indispensable to Venezuela. He should have handed over power to someone who could continue the work that has started.

Chuck Stone

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Many of the reforms Chavez has introduced have been very positive - inspiring even.

True. One particular initiative that caught my attention was the satellite launch co-venture with China.

October 30, 2008

A rocket carrying a Venezuelan satellite blasts off early Thursday from southwestern China's Sichuan province.
Venezuela's first satellite roared into space Thursday from a launching pad in southwest China.

The telecommunications satellite will let rural communities in Venezuela access educational and medical information that has been difficult for them to come by as a result of their relative isolation, said Rodolfo Navaro, technical manager for the Bolivarian Space Activity Agency.

"It is not focused on commercial ends, but on providing a service to the communities which have never enjoyed a modern communication system," he said, according to the Bolivarian News Agency.

"Aboriginal communities, for instance, would receive long-distance education, or maybe they would request medicines, air or river ambulance service, medical checkups, among other options."

A Chinese rocket carrying the satellite lifted off early Thursday from the Xichang Satellite Launch Center in southwestern China's Sichuan province, according to an account in China's state-run news agency, Xinhua.

The satellite is designed to last 15 years, the agency said.

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