Grunting = Cheating

darkman2

I happened to see the women's final yesterday and thought Sharapova was engaged in the usual tactic of putting the opponent off with her excessive grunting right from her first serve. There is no excuse for this. It is cheating IMO. What do you think? And why is something not done about this?

mike65

I have say I think Sharapova does use it as an "annoyance/distraction" against her opponent. I'm sure she is louder than she used to be.

Shanotheslayer

I wouldn't really call it cheating. More of a tactic to put the opponent off, and they have every right to do it if it's not against the rules and the opponent isn't complaining about it.

Da Shins Kelly

It's gamesmanship, but it really is up to the opponent to say something if they're being put off by it. I do think that the players who grunt do it deliberately, but at the moment they're within their rights unless someone says something. I reckon players like Sharapova have been told to do it by coaches from when they were very young as a distraction tactic, and now it's just habit and they can't stop doing it, hence the 'it's part of my game' excuse - they think they need to do it after being told to do it for so long.

staker

Any truth in more power being generated on the out-breath? Hence the loud grunting..

Johnmb

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

... but it really is up to the opponent to say something if they're being put off by it.....

Sorry, but that is BS. The umpire is there to enforce the rules of the game. If a player is causing a hinderance by screaming during a rally, it is the umpire's job to call it. If a piece of paper runs across the court, the umpire doesn't wait for a player to call a let, he/she does it immediately, often before either player even realizes what has happened. It is a cop out to claim that it is up to the opponent to complain.

Da Shins Kelly

Johnmb wrote: »

Sorry, but that is BS. The umpire is there to enforce the rules of the game. If a player is causing a hinderance by screaming during a rally, it is the umpire's job to call it. If a piece of paper runs across the court, the umpire doesn't wait for a player to call a let, he/she does it immediately, often before either player even realizes what has happened. It is a cop out to claim that it is up to the opponent to complain.

Is grunting against the rules? If it's not in the rules, then it's not the job of the umpire to enforce a rule that doesn't exist. The umpire can't tell players what they can and cannot do if it's not in the rules. It's an individual sport.

Johnmb

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

Is grunting against the rules? If it's not in the rules, then it's not the job of the umpire to enforce a rule that doesn't exist. The umpire can't tell players what they can and cannot do if it's not in the rules. It's an individual sport.

Yes it is in the rules. Making noises when your opponent is taking their shot to put them off is against the rules. And the likes of Azarenka who is still in full scream as her opponent is striking the ball is breaking the rules. The umpires chickened out back when Sharapova started doing it because she was such a big draw, and now it is accepted, but it is still breaking the rules of tennis. Seles was borderline, she grunted loudly, but it was a grunt, not a scream, and I don't recall it continuing on until her opponent had started the forward swing of the next shot!

darkman2

If you turned off the screen and left the sound on yesterday what you had was porn for blind people.;)

The way she was grunting seems pretty much trained to an exactness not the way as in someone is tired or fatigued. It was from the first serve. It is deliberate and cynical. It is foul play toward the opponent. It also annoys viewers after a while. It's irritating because we all know the intention. If there is not a rule - should they not just make a rule against "excessive" grunting?

Caitlinn

darkman2 wrote: »

If there is not a rule - should they not just make a rule against "excessive" grunting?

A few years back there as a player called Michelle Larcher DeBrito at Wimbledon, her 'grunting' was so bad that she was actually warned by the Tennis Federation ahead of Wimbledon that she could face penalties for distracting other players.

I remember the BBC talking about the decibels of the noise she was making, it made her matches nearly unwatchable it was so annoying.

Anyway, during Wimbledon that year players complained to the umpire during some of her matches that she was putting them off. Her defence was that it was natural to her to make that noise and that if she had to worry about the noise she was making she wouldn't be able to play to her full ability.

So yeah the tennis federation are monitoring the 'grunting' issue but it is very hard to prove that it is being done as a tactic and while they threaten players with penalties they are not forthcoming.

Johnmb

Caitlinn wrote: »

A few years back there as a player called Michelle Larcher DeBrito at Wimbledon, her 'grunting' was so bad that she was actually warned by the Tennis Federation ahead of Wimbledon that she could face penalties for distracting other players.

I remember the BBC talking about the decibels of the noise she was making, it made her matches nearly unwatchable it was so annoying.

Anyway, during Wimbledon that year players complained to the umpire during some of her matches that she was putting them off. Her defence was that it was natural to her to make that noise and that if she had to worry about the noise she was making she wouldn't be able to play to her full ability.

So yeah the tennis federation are monitoring the 'grunting' issue but it is very hard to prove that it is being done as a tactic and while they threaten players with penalties they are not forthcoming.

It's very easy to prove that it is being done as a tactic. There is no other reason for doing it. You can exhale with a minimum of noise. There is no justifiable reason why you should still be making noise from your exhale when your opponent is hitting the ball.

Caitlinn

Johnmb wrote: »

It's very easy to prove that it is being done as a tactic. There is no other reason for doing it. You can exhale with a minimum of noise. There is no justifiable reason why you should still be making noise from your exhale when your opponent is hitting the ball.

Yeah but how would you prove it?

Johnmb

Caitlinn wrote: »

Yeah but how would you prove it?

Did she scream? Yes/no. Hard to miss...

Caitlinn

Johnmb wrote: »

Did she scream? Yes/no. Hard to miss...

How do you prove it's being done as a tactic? You can't.

Johnmb

Caitlinn wrote: »

How do you prove it's being done as a tactic? You can't.

Have you ever received formal training in a sport? The only reason you'll ever be given by an honest trainer for screaming is to intimidate the opponent. When it's just a matter of stopping someone from holding their breath, then a word, like "yes" is given to the student, as it is far more effective and doesn't take away from the power/control. It is standard practice in martial arts to try to put off the opponent with a loud scream, and it is becoming that way in women's' tennis. Hopefully they don't allow it to start in men's tennis.

Da Shins Kelly

They also argue that it helps them channel their energy into their shots. There's no doubt it's very, very annoying though. Martina Navratilova seems to believe it is a tactic, saying that it affected her game because she couldn't hear the ball hitting the racket, and you can hear a bad shot before you see it.

I also read an interesting article in a paper about the objections to grunting in the women's game being a manifestation to some sort of underlying sexism. People find the grunting from women a bit too sexy, and it puts them off. On the otherhand though, nobody minded when Connors or Lendl did it, or when McEnroe went insane on court, shouting and throwing his racket all over the place (and that was definitely a tactical thing on his part). I don't totally agree with the article, although it is interesting to note that people love McEnroe for the way he behaved, but resent women grunting when they hit the ball (at least they're not showering everyone around them with abuse, right?). It was an interesting read, despite not being completely correct, in my opinion.

I reckon it probably is a tactic, mixed with just bad habit, and I do think something should be done about it, because young girls coming up are seeing this behaviour and mirroring it, and it's just gonna keep getting worse until it's just unbearable to watch.

Johnmb

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

They also argue that it helps them channel their energy into their shots.

Not the honest ones, or at least not the good ones who are honest. All good coaches, trainers, etc know that, whether it is hitting a ball, throwing a punch, or any other such action, screaming at the top of your voice actually takes away energy from it and makes it less effective. The decision is, will the distraction it causes be of more benefit. In tennis, there is a rule against causing such a distraction, in other sports there may not be.

Johnmb

There was even a study done that showed grunters have an advantage due to putting off their opponents:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/10/101003081714.htm
I seriously doubt you'll find any real study that shows that grunting allows them to hit the ball any harder (the opposite is true in fact).

Da Shins Kelly

Johnmb wrote: »

There was even a study done that showed grunters have an advantage due to putting off their opponents:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/10/101003081714.htm
I seriously doubt you'll find any real study that shows that grunting allows them to hit the ball any harder (the opposite is true in fact).

I think they were saying it from a psychological stand point, rather than a physical one though.

But, I'm not disagreeing with you. I don't like it either.

Anywhoodle

Johnmb wrote: »

Not the honest ones, or at least not the good ones who are honest. All good coaches, trainers, etc know that, whether it is hitting a ball, throwing a punch, or any other such action, screaming at the top of your voice actually takes away energy from it and makes it less effective. The decision is, will the distraction it causes be of more benefit. In tennis, there is a rule against causing such a distraction, in other sports there may not be.

Some of the players seem to argue that the opposite is true.. I dunno, I mean if it actually took energy away from them and made their shot less effective, surely they'd cut it out straight away?

From one of Azarenka's Wimbledon post-match interviews..

Does the grunting give you a good feeling on the exhalation? Does it give you a rhythm? A fight? How does it help you?

VICTORIA AZARENKA: How I started, when I was a kid, I was very weak. I needed that little extra power, extra push, to hit the ball over the net. I think that became a part of my breathing, a part of my movement. It's kind of like, well, your body is a machine a little bit, right? It makes noises. So for me it's perfectly natural now. I really have to exhale with that to move, to hit the shot. It's not coming of, you know, I want to piss somebody off. It's just natural me.

Seles was once sort of pressurized into holding back her grunt during a final here and lost and regretted that. Have you ever tried to repress it? Does it affect the way you play?
VICTORIA AZARENKA: I haven't tried. I haven't really tried because that's why it's natural, you know. I do it in tournaments. I do it in practice. No matter what. You can see the exercise ‑‑ you see weight lifters when they lift the bar they do the noise. I don't think a lot of people complain in the stadium there, right?

Johnmb

Anywhoodle wrote: »

Some of the players seem to argue that the opposite is true..

Players are hardly going to admit that they do it mainly to put off their opponent. Plus, quite a few of them just do what they're told and don't question why they are doing it.

I dunno, I mean if it actually took energy away from them and made their shot less effective, surely they'd cut it out straight away?

They (or their coaches) obviously feel that there is more benefit to putting off their opponents with the scream rather than hitting the ball a bit harder. The typical example is in martial arts. For forms and semi contact you often hear loud screams, but in full contact those same practitioners stay fairly quite. When was the last time you heard a boxer scream as he hit his opponent if he hadn't injured himself somehow? If screaming actually added any power don't you think all full contact sports participants would be doing it? Heck, even if it had no effect, wouldn't they do it for intimidation purposes? The reason they don't is because they know it takes away from their power and accuracy which are more important to them than distraction.

Anywhoodle

Johnmb wrote: »

They (or their coaches) obviously feel that there is more benefit to putting off their opponents with the scream rather than hitting the ball a bit harder. The typical example is in martial arts. For forms and semi contact you often hear loud screams, but in full contact those same practitioners stay fairly quite. When was the last time you heard a boxer scream as he hit his opponent if he hadn't injured himself somehow? If screaming actually added any power don't you think all full contact sports participants would be doing it? Heck, even if it had no effect, wouldn't they do it for intimidation purposes? The reason they don't is because they know it takes away from their power and accuracy which are more important to them than distraction.

I'm not arguing it either way to be honest.. I've never been sure about the motivation behind the grunting.. I can't see that it's much of a distraction tool- if it was that off-putting, you'd imagine the majority of players (who don't grunt) would kick up more of a fuss about it. Grunting per se isn't against the rules, but they'd have grounds to argue that the sound dragged on unnecessarily to the point that it was made during the rally (which is against the rules). Not many of them seem that bothered though? I've read accounts from players in the past saying that Sharapova's shrieking etc. isn't noticeable after a while- you get used to it pretty quickly. Besides, if you thought someone was trying to distract you in an under-handed way, and that it was proving effective, surely you'd throw the same back?

Some people do argue that it's purely for intimidation purposes but I think that only fits with the likes of Sharapova and the Williams' where it's an all-out scream.. They're big presences in the game who probably do use it to enhance their aura of invincibility.. But the Schiavones, Dementievas (retired now obviously), Azarenkas etc.? It's not what you'd call intimidating shrieking? It does sound more as though they're genuinely using it to time the ball and their own movement..

It's also argued that they're using it to disguise the sound of the ball leaving the racket (and therefore the shot).. Could be something in that too..

What Da Shins Kelly mentioned is interesting IMO.. There's defo a tendency to focus too much on the grunting in the women's game. Ok, Sharapova can be exceptional- none of the guys come close to her noise-level. But IMO it's ridiculous when people start harping on about the likes of Petkovic, Schiavone etc. Rafa, Ferrer and many of the Spaniards and South American players in particular do plenty of grunting that nobody ever bothers to complain about (myself included; they've a seriously sexy, accented grunt going on..) And yeah, in terms of dodgy tactics- what about the time-wasters? Rafa and Nole in particular? That's something that actually is against the rules at present but nobody's in a rush to enforce it.. On-court swearing? Andy Murray anyone? Is grunting really more offensive than his unnecessary outbursts?

No doubt the grunting can be a head-wreck but there are plenty of other on-court antics that aren't exactly viewer-friendly. Disproportionate focus IMO..