How does pay and conditions etc compare in the Irish DF's to others ?

PatsytheNazi

Just wondering the above. Since our public services including the Guards, Prison Service etc are from what I've heard generally 20% better paid relative to other public services in the EU, therefore I'd imagine they Irish DF's better paid than most others ? And not just EU but US, Canada etc ? And also conditions like hours on duty, days in lieu etc ?

( Not trying to insult anyone or stir up a hornet's nest, but I'd say it's handy compared to say, the Americans etc but correct me if I'm wrong )

Praetorian Saighdiuir

Sure we should just compare pay from all walks of life so.

This thread wont end well. I have no knowledge of other countries military salaries but im sure if you have a Google, something might pop up.

paky

i reckon the irish defence forces are one of the best payed in the world. a mate of mine joined as a private a couple of years back and he was on over 400 quid a week after basic t. not many privates around the world would make that in such a short space of time.

Manic Moran

paky wrote: »

i reckon the irish defence forces are one of the best payed in the world. a mate of mine joined as a private a couple of years back and he was on over 400 quid a week after basic t. not many privates around the world would make that in such a short space of time.

The US Army pays quite well, it must be said. As a captain I pull in somewhere over $ 8000 a month when I'm mobilized, about a third of which is not taxable. (all of it, if deployed overseas, plus additional bonuses)

A fresh private out of basic will get $ 1500 a month minimum if his lodging is being paid for. If he's living on the local economy, he can expect additional moneys to cover the average rent where he's at.

That, of course, does not count the additional fringe benefits such as the GI Bill. I'm using mine for advanced flight training, the government is paying some 60% of my costs at my local flying school.
On a similar level, my mortgage is a quarter percent lower than that of an equal civilian because it's guaranteed by the government through a VA home loan

NTM

PatsytheNazi

Manic Moran wrote: »

The US Army pays quite well, it must be said. As a captain I pull in somewhere over $ 8000 a month when I'm mobilized, about a third of which is not taxable. (all of it, if deployed overseas, plus additional bonuses)

A fresh private out of basic will get $ 1500 a month minimum if his lodging is being paid for. If he's living on the local economy, he can expect additional moneys to cover the average rent where he's at.

That, of course, does not count the additional fringe benefits such as the GI Bill. I'm using mine for advanced flight training, the government is paying some 60% of my costs at my local flying school.
On a similar level, my mortgage is a quarter percent lower than that of an equal civilian because it's guaranteed by the government through a VA home loan

NTM

Pretty good. As regards the GI Bill and medical services etc, does it equally apply to someone who served in the National Guard as well as a full time US DF member ?

krissovo

All the respective military websites have rates of pay so a couple of hours pulling data would tell you.

As a Captain in the BA my basic salary was £36k a year (2002) plus other money for qualifications which took me to about £45k a year. We got no benefits for being out of barracks on exercise or active service unless it was deemed that country was covered by "Local Overseas Allowance" (LOA). In fact during the first Gulf War I was paid less in Saudi than I was in Barracks in Germany as I lost my German LOA. I lived in married quarters and paid around £280 a month for a nice 4 bedroom house.

I did a spell in Brunei and every month we had a supplementary pay parade for the Sultan of Brunei. In this parade a senior official used to hand out envelopes of cash to the British garrison based there. During this period I can you that I was loaded!

The other benefits were similar to the US for education, you could claim up to 80% of fees and be granted additional leave depending on the course. You could also claim up to 90% for private school fees for your children.

From what I recall the British and US were the best paid by far in actual cash terms with most of Western Europe catching up. Eastern Europe rates of pay were very poor, Russians that I worked with in Bosnia actually had second jobs in Bosnia as security to supplement their pay. The Czech rates of pay were the best in the region. It was also dependent on if the service man was a professional or conscripted, the Scandinavian military had a huge divide of pay between the two.

Manic Moran

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Pretty good. As regards the GI Bill and medical services etc, does it equally apply to someone who served in the National Guard as well as a full time US DF member ?

The only benefit which I'm not entitled to as a reservist which I've noticed and has irked me is that I'm not allowed free air travel outside of the US and its territories. I can get as far as Guam, but Australia's territory for active duty only. It annoyed the hell out of me last year when I was demobilising because I utterly forgot about that benefit until literally my last day of leave.

Otherwise, most everything is available to both. The post 9/11 GI Bill does have an active duty time requirement, for the full benefits you need to have 30 months of active duty time, so reservists need a deployment or two to earn the full benefits level. I'm eligible for it, but my flight training is going under the old Montgomery GI Bill, which never distinguished.

NTM

dodgydes

Overseas a few years ago, i remember the Scandinavian countries were better paid than us, but it was mainly because they had a longer deployment and got tax benefits as a result.
The non-pay benefits (education, insurance, etc) seem to be better in other countries.

PatsytheNazi

dodgydes wrote: »

Overseas a few years ago, i remember the scandanavian countries were better paid than us, but it was mainly because they had a longer deployment and got tax benefits as a result.
The non-pay benefits (education, insurance, etc) seem to be better in other countries.

I'd imagine the Scandinavians would be well paid alright.

BigDuffman

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

I'd imagine the Scandinavians would be well paid alright.

The bin-men in Norway are also higher paid than our bin, but in saying that everyone is relatively better paid on account on the more expensive cost of living (€9 for a pint?!).

Its all relative, so very hard to generalize across the board. The conditions / perks, attached to being a soldier in different countries would be a better benchmark. From what I gathered when I was in the US, soldiers seemed to be respected, with small perks such as free travel in uniform, entrance to museums etc, even small things like people in restaurants + pubs giving free stuff and pats on the back!

But with all things I'm sure this is not the universal response (I'm sure Manic will enlighten us).

Manic Moran

I've never gotten a negative response, even in the Bay Area. The free drinks/meals isn't a given, but I've learned not to be shocked and surprised when it happens.

Sometimes the people will still be there when you discover they've paid for your meal, you can say 'thanks', other times, they'll pay on their way out, and you will have absolutely no clue who to express appreciation to.

But the free admission to places is certainly handy. San Diego Zoo's admission fee is pretty steep, but I just flashed my ID card and in I went.

NTM

Yitzhak Rabin

Manic, you ever hear of foreign nations receiving the same military discounts in the US? I'm currently on a year's leave of absence from the PDF and am working over in the US. I'm always tempted to chance my arm. What do you think the response would be? I mean technically we serve alongside you in Afghanistan, all of 10 pers :P

Also, now that I've let my hair grow and am unshaven quite a bit, it would be even more dubious, particularly with the ridiculously unprofessional PDF IDs.

Local-womanizer

yekahS wrote: »

Manic, you ever hear of foreign nations receiving the same military discounts in the US? I'm currently on a year's leave of absence from the PDF and am working over in the US. I'm always tempted to chance my arm. What do you think the response would be? I mean technically we serve alongside you in Afghanistan, all of 10 pers :P

Also, now that I've let my hair grow and am unshaven quite a bit, it would be even more dubious, particularly with the ridiculously unprofessional PDF IDs.

Being in the RDF worked for me in the states. Museums for free, discounts in clothing shops etc. Then the other perks like discounts in restaurants and bars.

Manic Moran

yekahS wrote: »

Manic, you ever hear of foreign nations receiving the same military discounts in the US? I'm currently on a year's leave of absence from the PDF and am working over in the US. I'm always tempted to chance my arm. What do you think the response would be? I mean technically we serve alongside you in Afghanistan, all of 10 pers :P

Also, now that I've let my hair grow and am unshaven quite a bit, it would be even more dubious, particularly with the ridiculously unprofessional PDF IDs.

I think you'd be OK in most places, as long as you look vaguely like your ID. The ID should look official, have an expiration date, your rank, and say "army"on it somewhere, that will usually do the job.

NTM

SamuelFox

PDF pay compares exceptionally well, not just to other militaries but also to most civilian jobs. The allowances the PDF get are mindboggling – I played Rugby in UCG back in the day and the Army lads used to fight over who’d get duty Officer on Saturday or Sunday – €90 for snoozing off your hangover in front of the Sunday Game – yes please! The recent nonsense over extra money for shovelling snow underlines how embedded the bonus culture is in the Defence Forces, and sure if the squeeze comes on you have two trade unions to fight your corner!

The average wage in the PDF is €42,000, compared to an average industrial wage of €36,000. Considering that the PDF is (in theory) a hierarchical organisation with most earners at the lower levels, this is too high. When you factor in the perks – free accommodation if required, heavily subsided meals and drink, short days, long holidays, free healthcare, an in-house credit union and insurance company, etc etc, you see that PDF personnel do very well from their employment.

The free accommodation is something that really irks me. Currently, most accommodation in Defence Forces property are classified as “sub-standard” which means no accommodation charges are paid. According to my coterie of Officer buddies, unless the accommodation has been refurbished in the last 2 or 3 years, it is classified as sub-standard. I live in service accommodation it the UK and pay accommodation charges, food charges and a charge in lieu of council tax, and my accommodation is still far inferior to the so called “sub standard” DF accommodation.

If you are coming to a DF location for a conference or whatever and there is no “standard” accommodation available in that location (and there won't be!), a chit to confirm that from your friendly mess secretary will allow you to draw €200 for a hotel room. Its unvouched, so if you decide to stay on a mates couch it stays in your pocket, and because it is an “expense” it is tax free. The recent austerity may have changed this practice but it was common within the last few years.

Anyway, to answer your question the DF are very well rewarded for a not very demanding job in my humble opinion.

BigDuffman

SamuelFox wrote: »

Anyway, to answer your question the DF are very well rewarded for a not very demanding job in my humble opinion.

:rolleyes: here we go!

SamuelFox

BigDuffman wrote: »

:rolleyes: here we go!

Everything in my post is backed up - if you have an issue with anything feel free to let us know - that's why we're all here!

rednik

SamuelFox wrote: »

Everything in my post is backed up - if you have an issue with anything feel free to let us know - that's why we're all here!

So how long exactly were YOU in the DF?

SamuelFox

rednik wrote: »

So how long exactly were YOU in the DF?

Yes, that's the point here. Don't worry about my background - I have more than enough knowledge to be able to comment. Deal with the issues in my post, not with me.

Praetorian Saighdiuir

SamuelFox wrote: »

PDF pay compares exceptionally well, not just to other militaries but also to most civilian jobs. The allowances the PDF get are mindboggling – I played Rugby in UCG back in the day and the Army lads used to fight over who’d get duty Officer on Saturday or Sunday – €90 for snoozing off your hangover in front of the Sunday Game – yes please! The recent nonsense over extra money for shovelling snow underlines how embedded the bonus culture is in the Defence Forces, and sure if the squeeze comes on you have two trade unions to fight your corner!

The average wage in the PDF is €42,000, compared to an average industrial wage of €36,000. Considering that the PDF is (in theory) a hierarchical organisation with most earners at the lower levels, this is too high. When you factor in the perks – free accommodation if required, heavily subsided meals and drink, short days, long holidays, free healthcare, an in-house credit union and insurance company, etc etc, you see that PDF personnel do very well from their employment.

The free accommodation is something that really irks me. Currently, most accommodation in Defence Forces property are classified as “sub-standard” which means no accommodation charges are paid. According to my coterie of Officer buddies, unless the accommodation has been refurbished in the last 2 or 3 years, it is classified as sub-standard. I live in service accommodation it the UK and pay accommodation charges, food charges and a charge in lieu of council tax, and my accommodation is still far inferior to the so called “sub standard” DF accommodation.

If you are coming to a DF location for a conference or whatever and there is no “standard” accommodation available in that location (and there won't be!), a chit to confirm that from your friendly mess secretary will allow you to draw €200 for a hotel room. Its unvouched, so if you decide to stay on a mates couch it stays in your pocket, and because it is an “expense” it is tax free. The recent austerity may have changed this practice but it was common within the last few years.

Anyway, to answer your question the DF are very well rewarded for a not very demanding job in my humble opinion.

Ok,

First of all there is NO "bonus culture" within the DF. So you are incorrect from the start.

I presume that your expeience of DF personnel is contained mostly to young officers? So unless you have served in the DF, you have limited and at best 2nd hand information to quote on this forum.

The payment of a 24 hour duty is broken down to different rates, depending on what day of the week you are on duty. We dont just automatically get €90. There is a monitary difference between armed and unarmed duties. Our duty money is not tax free.

24 Hr armed duty after tax Mon-Fri = €23 thats equates to 0.95c an hour extra. What civilian job pays out 0.95c per hour overtime?

Weekend duties do pay better but I dont have a recent pay slip to give accurate amounts. There is also a 20% cut in this duty money coming shortly, so you can take 20% off that 0.95c.

Our assistance was requested by AGS for snow/ice clearing, this is also a duty called ACA/ATCP., again this was an unarmed payable duty. I dont have figures for this payment.

My trade union, who I do not subscribe to is PDFORRA. I would subscribe if they did "fight my corner".

I have 11.5 years service, I will retire after 21 years service. I earn €37k per annum. I would love to have an "average wage" of €42k but I am extremely, extremely grateful I have a wage.

When on a course of instruction outside of your barracks/brigade or on an exercise the accomodation is free. This is because it is a requirement because you are away from home and not everyone avails of it. We are not "living in" personnel. For personnel "living in" barracks they pay a certain amount for rations and accommodation. A rough guess is €50 a week. This figure is also going to be raised soon. Believe me I have lived in substandard military accommodation and it has nothing to do with no refurb for 2-3 years. So your comment about that is also wrong.

The ration budget for a soldier is roughly €2.80 - €3.50 a day, that is for breakfast, lunch and dinner. The food budget is made to stretch as far as it can.

newby.204

SamuelFox wrote: »

PDF pay compares exceptionally well, not just to other militaries but also to most civilian jobs. The allowances the PDF get are mindboggling – I played Rugby in UCG back in the day and the Army lads used to fight over who’d get duty Officer on Saturday or Sunday – €90 for snoozing off your hangover in front of the Sunday Game – yes please! The recent nonsense over extra money for shovelling snow underlines how embedded the bonus culture is in the Defence Forces, and sure if the squeeze comes on you have two trade unions to fight your corner!

The average wage in the PDF is €42,000, compared to an average industrial wage of €36,000. Considering that the PDF is (in theory) a hierarchical organisation with most earners at the lower levels, this is too high. When you factor in the perks – free accommodation if required, heavily subsided meals and drink, short days, long holidays, free healthcare, an in-house credit union and insurance company, etc etc, you see that PDF personnel do very well from their employment.

The free accommodation is something that really irks me. Currently, most accommodation in Defence Forces property are classified as “sub-standard” which means no accommodation charges are paid. According to my coterie of Officer buddies, unless the accommodation has been refurbished in the last 2 or 3 years, it is classified as sub-standard. I live in service accommodation it the UK and pay accommodation charges, food charges and a charge in lieu of council tax, and my accommodation is still far inferior to the so called “sub standard” DF accommodation.

If you are coming to a DF location for a conference or whatever and there is no “standard” accommodation available in that location (and there won't be!), a chit to confirm that from your friendly mess secretary will allow you to draw €200 for a hotel room. Its unvouched, so if you decide to stay on a mates couch it stays in your pocket, and because it is an “expense” it is tax free. The recent austerity may have changed this practice but it was common within the last few years.

Anyway, to answer your question the DF are very well rewarded for a not very demanding job in my humble opinion.

There is a vast vast difference between how enlisted men and commissioned ranks are treated in the DF, all I can say is everything you have said is complete and utter sh!te if you are applying it to an enlisted man and if you believed that enlisted men are treated the same in any way id have doubts your even in the BA to be perfectly honest!!

My gross is 36k, my take home is circa 27k, so wherever you pulled your figures from, and im guessing its your commissioned buddies rates, you're completely wrong unless you know a couple of CSgts or SgtMajs

You know what really IRKS me is when people post complete bollox when they were clearly misinformed, only those forced to live in get free accommadation for the duration of a course, those who choose to live in pay rations and quarters, deducted from their wage packet every week.

And with regards to the last paragraph I wouldn't know I'm not an officer but if you think an enlisted man in the PDF could pull that i would actually eat my beret!! €200 unvouched i can barely get a sub form for €15 through.

Camoflage

BigDuffman wrote: »

:rolleyes: here we go!

+1;)

Camoflage

http://www.army.mod.uk/join/20097.aspx

1 GBP = 1.13983 EUR

Camoflage

http://www.military.ie/careers/army/recruits/rates-of-pay

http://www.military.ie/careers/army/cadetships/rates-of-pay

Yitzhak Rabin

SamuelFox wrote: »

Anyway, to answer your question the DF are very well rewarded for a not very demanding job in my humble opinion.

Yeah we get it Sammy. You tried to get in a few times and they wouldn't have you, get over it.

Camoflage

http://www.modoracle.com/service_allowance/

BTW don't get me wrong they deserve every penny and more! Just said I'd inject a few facts into the discussion:)

BigDuffman

SamuelFox wrote: »

Everything in my post is backed up - if you have an issue with anything feel free to let us know - that's why we're all here!

SamuelFox wrote: »

PDF pay compares exceptionally well, not just to other militaries but also to most civilian jobs. The allowances the PDF get are mindboggling – I played Rugby in UCG back in the day and the Army lads used to fight over who’d get duty Officer on Saturday or Sunday – €90 for snoozing off your hangover in front of the Sunday Game – yes please! The recent nonsense over extra money for shovelling snow underlines how embedded the bonus culture is in the Defence Forces, and sure if the squeeze comes on you have two trade unions to fight your corner!

The average wage in the PDF is €42,000, compared to an average industrial wage of €36,000. Considering that the PDF is (in theory) a hierarchical organisation with most earners at the lower levels, this is too high. When you factor in the perks – free accommodation if required, heavily subsided meals and drink, short days, long holidays, free healthcare, an in-house credit union and insurance company, etc etc, you see that PDF personnel do very well from their employment.

The free accommodation is something that really irks me. Currently, most accommodation in Defence Forces property are classified as “sub-standard” which means no accommodation charges are paid. According to my coterie of Officer buddies, unless the accommodation has been refurbished in the last 2 or 3 years, it is classified as sub-standard. I live in service accommodation it the UK and pay accommodation charges, food charges and a charge in lieu of council tax, and my accommodation is still far inferior to the so called “sub standard” DF accommodation.

If you are coming to a DF location for a conference or whatever and there is no “standard” accommodation available in that location (and there won't be!), a chit to confirm that from your friendly mess secretary will allow you to draw €200 for a hotel room. Its unvouched, so if you decide to stay on a mates couch it stays in your pocket, and because it is an “expense” it is tax free. The recent austerity may have changed this practice but it was common within the last few years.

Anyway, to answer your question the DF are very well rewarded for a not very demanding job in my humble opinion.

First of all, I am not PDF (yet ) I am a private sector worker.

Depending on the size of your private sector organization you may also encounter such perks and bonuses as;

• Subsidised Canteen
• Child-care
• Subsidised Gym Membership
• Funded Interest groups
• Travel Allowance
• Fuel Allowance
• Reimbursement of Expenses

Jesus never mind the perks working for the likes of Google etc. Apply your same logic and sense of scale to a financial institution.
"Facts" you have mentioned are not quite facts. For example Free accomodation, is not free. Live in personnel are docked for room and board and rations. In my civvie street job if I had to travel to and over-night in Cork, I would expect my employer to cover this expense. If a PDF man is currently undergoing course / conference/ exercise that requires them to overnight (whilst not sleeping in a trench) the accomodation will be provided...I do not see why it shouldn't be?

Average wage, well thats been answered.

Are DF members not entitled to some of the same allowances as private sector workers? Like in every job there are easy rides (oh to be a playboy photographer) there certainly are benefits to being in the DF. But not every job involves mandatory fitness, appearance, risk of death & dismemberment, unsociable hours, potentially being posted for 6 months overseas in a warzone and so on.

And as for a not very demanding job....wow.

neilled

SamuelFox wrote: »

PDF pay compares exceptionally well, not just to other militaries but also to most civilian jobs. The allowances the PDF get are mindboggling – I played Rugby in UCG back in the day and the Army lads used to fight over who’d get duty Officer on Saturday or Sunday – €90 for snoozing off your hangover in front of the Sunday Game – yes please! The recent nonsense over extra money for shovelling snow underlines how embedded the bonus culture is in the Defence Forces, and sure if the squeeze comes on you have two trade unions to fight your corner!

The average wage in the PDF is €42,000, compared to an average industrial wage of €36,000. Considering that the PDF is (in theory) a hierarchical organisation with most earners at the lower levels, this is too high. When you factor in the perks – free accommodation if required, heavily subsided meals and drink, short days, long holidays, free healthcare, an in-house credit union and insurance company, etc etc, you see that PDF personnel do very well from their employment.

The free accommodation is something that really irks me. Currently, most accommodation in Defence Forces property are classified as “sub-standard” which means no accommodation charges are paid. According to my coterie of Officer buddies, unless the accommodation has been refurbished in the last 2 or 3 years, it is classified as sub-standard. I live in service accommodation it the UK and pay accommodation charges, food charges and a charge in lieu of council tax, and my accommodation is still far inferior to the so called “sub standard” DF accommodation.

If you are coming to a DF location for a conference or whatever and there is no “standard” accommodation available in that location (and there won't be!), a chit to confirm that from your friendly mess secretary will allow you to draw €200 for a hotel room. Its unvouched, so if you decide to stay on a mates couch it stays in your pocket, and because it is an “expense” it is tax free. The recent austerity may have changed this practice but it was common within the last few years.

Anyway, to answer your question the DF are very well rewarded for a not very demanding job in my humble opinion.

To be fair, your not comparing like with like. UK service personel can quite often avail of service married accomodation at discounted rates. For the majority of both enlisted and officers in the DF such a thing is next to non existant and available in a few locations which the department of defence are actively trying to dispose of and close down. Its a case of sod off and get your own mortgage which many did during the height of the boom and and now paying the price. UK service personel are also (as seen by the previous allowances link) entitled to an extensive range of benefits for things such as travel to and from work, or subsidised journeys home (if your stationed away from home) that simply not exist in the DF - stuff that isn't in your gross salary, but reduces your costs. The armed forces railcard is something that springs to mind instantly or for some 1000 odd discounts the BAF get have a look at http://www.forcesdiscounts-mod.co.uk/index.php

Wages also factor in cost of living, the ROI being much higher than in a uk. Instant examples being the NHS and Educational costs such as kids schoolbooks - being raised in NI my parents never took their hands out of their pockets, whilst in the ROI parents spend hundreds kitting out their kids with books that change every year. The days of getting family treatment on the medical corps are long gone - €50 when the other half or kids go sick to see a gp and then whatever else it is for the prescription. When you factor things like this into acount Pte Quentin and Lt Rupert's salary seemingly although lower, may actually go further than Pte Paddy and Lt Mick.

SamuelFox

yekahS wrote: »

Yeah we get it Sammy. You tried to get in a few times and they wouldn't have you, get over it.

I was hoping this wouldn’t get personal....

Shaky, when I applied to the Cadets I got on the subs list entirely on my own merit. I applied, having already been accepted to Sandhurst, to keep my family and friends happy, as they clearly saw the difference between our two organisations.

You and I typify the differences. I am training my troops for combat in the next few months.

You are on a 12 month holiday in America, using your crayoned ID card to "big time" it and pretend you’ve had an involvement in Afghanistan.

I am terrified of what lies ahead. There will undoubtedly be times when I will wish I was in your position. There will never, ever be a time when you will wish you were in my position. That’s the difference between you and I - I’m a soldier.

SamuelFox

I just wanted to respond to a few points here:
Firstly, I mentioned the “Bonus Culture”, and unfortunately there is absolutely a bonus culture in the PDF – its the nonsense system of allowances PDF personnel get for just doing their jobs! How can someone seriously argue here that because an allowance is only €23 it doesn’t count? You get that €23 (and the following day off) for doing something that is integral to your job. Additionally, there are lots of other allowances paid – for example Military Service Allowance – WTF is that about? Do Google pay a Computer Worker Allowance? Do Ryanair pay a trolley pushing allowance? This defies belief. Similarly the RDF allowances, the border allowance, the list goes on.

The figure I quoted of an average PDF wage of €42,000 comes from the Central Statistics Office. PDFORRA use the same figures:

The Central Statistics Office (CSO) in its Public Sector Average Weekly Earnings database calculates that the figure for the Defence Forces in June 2009 as €808.45. However, a pension levy of the order of €40 per week is now deducted from this figure giving a more realistic figure of €768.45. This is a modest figure and, of course, the majority of enlisted personnel represented by PDFORRA earn less than this figure. Approximately 50% of soldiers, sailors and aircrew are of Private rank who earn a basic €704.67 per week at the maximum of the scale before deduction of the pension levy.

If you disagree with the figures, contact the CSO. Even the figures individual posters have quoted here are out of context and I suspect that the “gross wages” cited by posters here do not include the allowances etc I mention above.

In fairness though, I have to concede that some of the examples I used are Officer specific and I should have made that more explicit in my post. On the other hand Officers are in the PDF too and the thread is about PDF earnings, not just OR earnings! Equally, there are plenty examples of ORs having it cushy too.

In terms of all else I said, controversial or not, I stand over them. I accept that no sector of society likes criticism of their conditions of employment. However, in a democracy you have to expect that. The public sector in Ireland has got a lot of abuse in recent months over conditions, and some have suffered heavily – SNA’s in schools and Nurses come to mind. The Defence Forces hide behind a very effective (and tax funded) PR machine and so they escape that criticism. In reality, the inefficiencies in the DF are far worse than found in many state agencies. However, that’s probably for another thread.

SamuelFox

To be fair, your not comparing like with like. UK service personel can quite often avail of service married accomodation at discounted rates. For the majority of both enlisted and officers in the DF such a thing is next to non existant and available in a few locations which the department of defence are actively trying to dispose of and close down. Its a case of sod off and get your own mortgage which many did during the height of the boom and and now paying the price. UK service personel are also (as seen by the previous allowances link) entitled to an extensive range of benefits for things such as travel to and from work, or subsidised journeys home (if your stationed away from home) that simply not exist in the DF - stuff that isn't in your gross salary, but reduces your costs. The armed forces railcard is something that springs to mind instantly or for some 1000 odd discounts the BAF get have a look at http://www.forcesdiscounts-mod.co.uk/index.php

Wages also factor in cost of living, the ROI being much higher than in a uk. Instant examples being the NHS and Educational costs such as kids schoolbooks - being raised in NI my parents never took their hands out of their pockets, whilst in the ROI parents spend hundreds kitting out their kids with books that change every year. The days of getting family treatment on the medical corps are long gone - €50 when the other half or kids go sick to see a gp and then whatever else it is for the prescription. When you factor things like this into acount Pte Quentin and Lt Rupert's salary seemingly although lower, may actually go further than Pte Paddy and Lt Mick.

I agree its not like with like, and I didn’t make the initial comparisons with HM Forces, except in the directly comparable area of accommodation. In my view the PDF is best compared with a civilian organisation in Ireland – the fact that we are actively a fighting a war and the PDF isn’t makes a huge difference to how you view the pay and conditions.

HM Forces, by their nature, are very different to the PDF and what looks like a “perk” from a PDF perspective often isn’t that at all. Married Quarters are a case in point. The married quarters in the PDF (that haven’t been “sold” off) are usually normal houses in a small estate. In the UK, MQs are frequently “behind the wire” and are usually of a lower standard than other houses in the area, never mind PDF married accommodation. PDF families can easily be dual income – the nature of service life in the UK, even with the abolition of the Arms Plot, make that very difficult. Therefore, a MQ is more of a necessity that a perk over here. On the other hand, PDF pers are rarely posted away from home station unless they request it, so wives can put down roots and get jobs. Similarly the PDF, having a much greater stability of life, and shorter hours, can and often do get part-time jobs themselves, further contributing to the household income. Overall, a mortgage, even given the house prices during the Celtic Tiger, is a much more realistic possibility for PDF than HM personnel.

In terms of the subsided travel and other discounts, that stuff looks good but is rarely applicable to service personnel – how often do you actually get home? The discount is there, but if you are only travelling every 6 weeks or so its not much benefit! However, the differences between the organisations are clear again - if Pte Bloggs is from London but posted in Inverness, and can't plan ahead with enough certainty to book early, should he be finacially penalised? You can get pretty much anywhere in Ireland for about €20, its not the same over here!

The same applies to a lot of other discounts – they are nice, but really only a marketing gimmick in some cases. In the British Army you really are isolated from the civilian world, and getting money off in McDonalds or a cinema (for example) doesn’t have much of an impact when you never get to the visit the place!

I agree with your point on the NHS and education – the differing systems between the two make it hard to compare. However, from the POV of Joe Bloggs in Ireland, if a PDF soldier gets free healthcare, and he has to cough up, then it is a perk. On the other hand, if Rupert needs to put his kids in Boarding school because he is moving location every 3-4 years, then the Army assisting with that isn’t much of a perk really – if he was permanently based in one location he could get a good school for his kids and leave them there!

Praetorian Saighdiuir

SamuelFox,

My quote of €23 for a 24 hr armed duty was for the sake of transperancy and to add factual content to this discussion. You stated "...€90 for snoozing off your hangover in front of the Sunday Game..." I did not want this figure to be construed as a default amount for all our duties. However, €90 is a rough figure for a Sunday duty.

My point about my salary was to take averages out of the equation, I was not contesting the CSO stats. In my opinion, averages are ugly and add nothing to a discussion. I would probably earn an extra €600 - €800 a year doing 24 hr duties.

Yes, we get the next day off after a 24hr shift. I would hope this is normal practice in other militaries around the world. I am also sure that other militaries would have some sort of duty allowance and the next day off, I highly doubt we are unique in that respect. However, I have not researched this yet.

I am not 100% sure why or when Miltary Service Allowance was introduced, its not something that I really questioned. I have heard that pay was dire in the 80's and that MSA was introduced to bulk up a soldiers wages. I have also heard that MSA is for buying non issued necessary equipment, shoe polish, dry cleaning etc etc. I would rather some of the more experienced PDF soldiers here to correct me on the MSA.

I am not familiar with the pay & allowances that a Google employee gets, but here is one thing that a quick search provided:

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/workers-at-google-net-10pc-pay-hikes-and-bonuses-2415803.html

I would like you to start a new thread and back up this statement of yours "...In reality, the inefficiencies in the DF are far worse than found in many state agencies..." Preferably with stats and links that compare other state agencies. Flippant statements like this weaken your discussion credibility. In the interest of a fair balance, I would also like to see you research what reform the DF has implimented since 2000. Please pay particular attention to all "Pre-Recession" reform. Then compare to other State Agencies......you may be surprised.

I am interested to know if you have a list of allowances that HM forces can avail of. If so, I would like you to quote them, as long as opsec is not compromised. I will have a look for the PDF also.

I take offence to your comment directed at yekahS. It belittles all who serve or have served in the DF. We are soldiers. We are all essentially trained for combat, obviously, thats what basic training is for. The fact that we are not an invading military or are not at war with anyone does not negate the fact that we are still trained to do the job. It may not seem so in your opinion, but your opinion on us not being soldiers is irrelevant.

I think you need to lose the chip on your shoulder or let go of whatever grudge or illfeeling you have towards the DF.

neilled

SamuelFox wrote: »

I agree its not like with like, and I didn’t make the initial comparisons with HM Forces, except in the directly comparable area of accommodation. In my view the PDF is best compared with a civilian organisation in Ireland – the fact that we are actively a fighting a war and the PDF isn’t makes a huge difference to how you view the pay and conditions.

HM Forces, by their nature, are very different to the PDF and what looks like a “perk” from a PDF perspective often isn’t that at all. Married Quarters are a case in point. The married quarters in the PDF (that haven’t been “sold” off) are usually normal houses in a small estate. In the UK, MQs are frequently “behind the wire” and are usually of a lower standard than other houses in the area, never mind PDF married accommodation. PDF families can easily be dual income – the nature of service life in the UK, even with the abolition of the Arms Plot, make that very difficult. Therefore, a MQ is more of a necessity that a perk over here. On the other hand, PDF pers are rarely posted away from home station unless they request it, so wives can put down roots and get jobs. Similarly the PDF, having a much greater stability of life, and shorter hours, can and often do get part-time jobs themselves, further contributing to the household income. Overall, a mortgage, even given the house prices during the Celtic Tiger, is a much more realistic possibility for PDF than HM personnel.

In terms of the subsided travel and other discounts, that stuff looks good but is rarely applicable to service personnel – how often do you actually get home? The discount is there, but if you are only travelling every 6 weeks or so its not much benefit! However, the differences between the organisations are clear again - if Pte Bloggs is from London but posted in Inverness, and can't plan ahead with enough certainty to book early, should he be finacially penalised? You can get pretty much anywhere in Ireland for about €20, its not the same over here!

The same applies to a lot of other discounts – they are nice, but really only a marketing gimmick in some cases. In the British Army you really are isolated from the civilian world, and getting money off in McDonalds or a cinema (for example) doesn’t have much of an impact when you never get to the visit the place!

I agree with your point on the NHS and education – the differing systems between the two make it hard to compare. However, from the POV of Joe Bloggs in Ireland, if a PDF soldier gets free healthcare, and he has to cough up, then it is a perk. On the other hand, if Rupert needs to put his kids in Boarding school because he is moving location every 3-4 years, then the Army assisting with that isn’t much of a perk really – if he was permanently based in one location he could get a good school for his kids and leave them there!

The fact that your fighting a war has nothing to do with what your paid, I would be disgusted if your pay was cut after the withdrawal from afghanistan - soldiers are paid to do what is required of them, whether war happens or during peacetime. By your logic, British Armed Forces (underpaid imho) should have their pay cut once the afghan campaign ends - afterall your not fighting a war anymore. That to my mind would be wrong. Pay is for doing your duty, whatever that might entail, be it in peacetime or in war.

Military Service Allowance is actually the same as the "X Factor" in the British Armed forces, namely a payment in recognition that service life is different that civvy life. The difference is that the X Factor is built into UK pay and MSA is not, as df payscales are based off public sector payscales and their civillian counterparts and the average rate of pay reflects that.

I'm not sure what married accomodation you've seen in Ireland but is very much substandard and not worth bragging about and there's very little left. Most of those housing estates you talk of were sold off and are now owned by civvies.

In relation to mortgages, the DF have no official schemes to help them get on the housing ladder - the BA get a scheme where they can have pay advanced to help them get on the property market! The can have pay advanced to help put down a deposit, up to 8 and a half grand and there's also the Armed Forces Home Ownership Scheme as well.

I defy you to get around Ireland for €20. I cordially invite you to check the price of the Cork Dublin and Dublin belfast trains for a sample of our cheap and reliable and radial (all roads lead to dublin) public transport:mad::mad::mad: BA get subsidised travel allowances and discounts on railfares - DF get two journeys home (on island) a year.

Regarding "free" healthcare in the DF - come on, all armed forces have a duty of care to their employees, it is in their interests to ensure that soldiers are healthy so that they can perform their duties. To not to have it would be negligent and bad for the organisation. The healthcare system the BA have access to is far more advanced than in the DF and soldiers are treated within the army and not the NHS so the BA still has the same "perk". I consider your argument irrelevant.

The DF of yore was a very inefficient creature. Since the white paper and downsizing of the organisation, outputs have increased whilst numbers have dropped and the organisation has consistantly stayed within its means, something that cannot be said about any other state body.

By the way that €200 chit your on about? Doesn't exist.

Yitzhak Rabin

SamuelFox wrote: »

You and I typify the differences. I am training my troops for combat in the next few months.

You are on a 12 month holiday in America, using your crayoned ID card to "big time" it and pretend you’ve had an involvement in Afghanistan.

lol, bigtiming it! I'm out here out of necessity, its no holiday, believe me. I'm earning minimum wage (US min wage which is less than a fiver an hour) lugging heavy **** from one place to another. If my crayoned ID can get me a discount at the grocery store you better believe I'm gonna take it.

I am terrified of what lies ahead. There will undoubtedly be times when I will wish I was in your position. There will never, ever be a time when you will wish you were in my position. That’s the difference between you and I - I’m a soldier.

Having a job that not many people would like to do for their own country, let alone a foreign nation isn't something I'd brag about. That's the difference between you and I - I'm a soldier, you're a mercenary.

This whole comparing the BA and the DF reminds me of the kids who used to have those 'my dad could beat up your dad' competitions.

Also, those stories you heard from your mates playing rugger with UCD are pure horse****. My guess is that there were a couple of D4-head officers who feeling rather bad that they were earning less than half what their solicitor, and accountant D4 buddies were making, tried to big up their pay by inventing non-existent perks.

Poccington

Gents, can we calm things down a bit?

I'd like to think you can all have a discussion without getting personal. If you think someone is wrong, well then argue the point with them without resorting to name calling etc.