Connacht football gets raw deal

crashvictim

Its all the rage these days for the media to have a dig at Connacht football. Every match review starts with "None of these will be around in August never mind September" Liam Hayes on off the ball calling a Connacht semi final a "Wooden spoon game" and Colm O'Rourke before the Kildare Dublin game saying "We are about to see two real teams playing here" in reference to the Mayo Galway game, now I saw this stat on Hoganstand but here it is.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Minor: Connacht six finalists, two winners Leinster four finalists, one winner
Under 21: Connacht six finalists, three winners Leinster Five finalist, one winner
Senior: Connacht four finalists, one winner Leinster one finalist, no winners[/FONT]

Now stats dont lie for the last decade, Connacht is much smaller in everyway then Leinster but the snobbery towards it from the Dublin media is something else. Why arent they lamenting the poor state of Leinster football seeing as they havent even had a finalist since 2001 never mind a winner. Does it make them feel better to pick on someone smaller then them? Connacht Abu!

crashvictim

Apologies for the long post but this blod sums it up well.

http://spailpin.blogspot.com/2011/06/mayos-dogs-of-war-first-class-display.html

It’s funny being a second class citizen. As Vincent Vega remarked about Europe, it’s not that like it's totally alien. It’s just the little differences.

If Meath, say, dog out a win on a day so miserable that it could have come right out of one of the more gloomy episodes of Peig Sayers’ life, then Meath are a team with mental strength, team that are never bet, a great bunch of bucks. If Mayo do it, it’s a further indication of the decline of Connacht football.

If Kildare, for instance, shoot nine first half wides then Kildare are a total football team and a credit to Kieran McGeeney and his lovely hair. If Mayo do it, it’s Mayo God help us all over again.

If Tyrone hold an opponent to one point in the second half it’s testimony to how organized and professional an outfit they are. If Mayo do it, it’s because Galway are but a shadow of past glories and hey, Connacht football is only for gimps anyway.

Mayo people, if they are wise, will ignore all this and take a huge amount of positives from the game yesterday in Castlebar. A friend of An Spailpín likes to quote Seán Boylan’s remark that football isn’t won in the head or the heart but in the belly.

Mayo showed some serious fight in the second half to hammer Galway like a nail and they should draw considerable strength from that as they look ahead to the rest of the summer.

Football is in a process of evolution. The conventional midfielder doesn’t exist anymore. There are goalkeepers, full backs and full forwards, and then there is the maelstrom of the middle third where only the strong survive.

In An Spailpín’s ideal world Willie Joe soars for the high ball under the clear blue skies before horsing it inside for Jimmy Burke or Noel Durkin. But in the real world, where you have manky weather and big question marks hanging over you, you fight for your very life.

And that’s exactly what Mayo did against Galway. They didn’t play in the Mayo style. They couldn’t – the TV really didn’t show what it was like to be out there in the teeming rain and into the teeth of a gale. Mayo fought like savages, and they came out on top.

Mayo were Kings of the Dirty Ball yesterday. Inspired by the O’Shea brothers, Mayo fought like junkyard dogs for every ball between the 45 metre lines and that’s why they won.

This is tremendous and heartening news for Mayo. John O’Mahony talked a lot about rebuilding, when he was actually destroying a team that got to two All-Ireland finals in three years, an achievement was never recognized, celebrated or built on for what it was.

The rebuilding has only started under Horan, and it’s on these young men that Horan has brought in that the future of Mayo will be built.

Mayo are a flawed team. I personally can live with that. I’ve seen lots of Mayo teams that were the best team in Ireland in June and long forgotten in September. I prefer this way. There’s plenty for James Horan to work on – he may need to consider buying a bicycle for Robert Hennelly to get up and down the pitch if Hennelly’s going to be taking many more frees, for instance – but yesterday was a heartening win for Mayo.

The country outside Connacht will hold its nose at the prospect of the Connacht Final, and that’s fine. Maybe the media will insist that all Connacht players be belled for the rest of the Championship, and have continuity announcers warn innocents that a particular afternoon’s football may contain scenes of a Connacht nature. And that’s fine too. We all have to live our lives according to our different lights.

Right now, in a lonesome Dublin exile, there is one happy Mayoman after seeing his team show a little bit of bite. It’ll be fun to see if anybody needs a rabies shot this summer after seventy minutes muzzle to muzzle Mayo’s Dogs of War.

ShamoBuc

Calm Down, Calm down!

bren2001

I don't think Connacht get the raw end of the deal. They are the worst province but not by as much as people make it out to be.

I think its quite simple it does Munster, Ulster, Leinster, Connacht, in that order (I'm a Dublin man). Munster and Ulster have just dominated the game over the last decade. The reason I say Leinster is better is purely that Dublin are always contending with either Kildare or Meath in with a chance as well. Quite often, years go by without Connacht really making a challenge.

They are interesting stats and Connacht do have their fair share of finalists but the more interesting fact would be how many make it through the back door system imo.

theoneeyedman

bren2001 wrote: »

I don't think Connacht get the raw end of the deal. They are the worst province but not by as much as people make it out to be.

I think its quite simple it does Munster, Ulster, Leinster, Connacht, in that order (I'm a Dublin man). Munster and Ulster have just dominated the game over the last decade. The reason I say Leinster is better is purely that Dublin are always contending with either Kildare or Meath in with a chance as well. Quite often, years go by without Connacht really making a challenge.

They are interesting stats and Connacht do have their fair share of finalists but the more interesting fact would be how many make it through the back door system imo.

Correction: Kerry and Tyrone have dominated over the last decade, with cork and armagh riding shotgun, but it's inaccurate to suggest munster and Ulster have dominated. for instance, realistically how many teams would have won a connacht title over the last 10/15 years outside of the above mentioned teams and possibly Dublin? Are you siggesting Tipperary, Limerick, Fermanagh, antrim, clare or cavan would have won a connacht title, or indeed the likes of Longford, carlow, Louth or wexford. The connacht teams have held their own IMO particularly at underage level with AI wins for Mayo roscommon and Galway in the last decade. Just because teams esp. from Leinster play regular games in croker in front of live TV and big crowds does not make them better than those that don't

AbsentPonderer

I strongly believe that Limerick would have won a Connacht title over the past few years, up until this year, and excluding 07, we have consistently put the likes of Kerry and Cork to the pin of their collars in Munster.

Diabhal Beag

Is Ulster really that much better than Connacht? Nope if at all. The AI Finalists were almost beaten by Clare.

In the same way Leinster was dead for about 5 years there Connacht is struggling when it comes to the big 2. But at the same time that gave Roscommon the chance to win a Provincial and possibly do the same this year. When people talk about how poor matches have been this year they fail to take into consideration the lashing rain in comparison to other Provincial matches. Not exactly the best conditions.

rossie1977

AbsentPonderer wrote: »

I strongly believe that Limerick would have won a Connacht title over the past few years, up until this year, and excluding 07, we have consistently put the likes of Kerry and Cork to the pin of their collars in Munster.

at the same time cork and kerry especially take it easy in munster and only really start playing in croker, look at sligo they went down to killarney 2 years ago, were the better team, missed a last minute penalty that would have knocked kerry out, few weeks later kerry were wiping the floor with the dubs in croke park on the way to winning the all-ireland

c_man

Well said OP. I've brought up those numbers (regarding the seniors) in conversations about this.

I'll let a Kerry or Tyrone man away with that kinda talk but not someone whose county (or indeed province) hasn't the silverware to back it up

AbsentPonderer

rossie1977 wrote: »

at the same time cork and kerry especially take it easy in munster and only really start playing in croker,

while i agree, their take it easy attitude had forced them to dig deep time and time again. But my point, the difference between Cork and Kerry and Mayo and Galway is massive, leading me to believe that we would have won Connachts.... Even last year, Cork were in cruise control against Roscommon, the Connacht champions.

rossie1977

AbsentPonderer wrote: »

. Even last year, Cork were in cruise control against Roscommon, the Connacht champions.

not at all, roscommon were winning that game with 50mins on the clock, it was only when we started to tire last 15mins that cork took control, we simply didn't have the players on the bench to bring on to change or affect the game in those last 15, our two lads were dominating midfield first 40mins and cork brought off walsh and on murphy, they brought on miskella, alan o'connor while we were reduced to bringing on players that struggle to start for their intermediate clubs given the injury problems in the county last summer

down were in cruise control against the munster champions kerry the entire match though a day earlier........

Pete_Cavan

crashvictim wrote: »

Now stats dont lie

I having been looking back over the Quarter Finalists in the senior championship. In the past 5 years, the only Connacht representative in the QF has been the Connacht champions.

Since 2006, Ulster have been represented in the QF 11 times (by 6 different counties), Leinster 14 times (by 6 different counties), Munster 10 (Cork and Kerry each time) and Connacht only 5 times, the Connacht champions - who didnt have to beat a team from outside Connacht to get there.

The qualifier system means each team has a chance to reach the QF once they have been eliminated from their provincial championship. Connacht teams have been unable to reach the QF because they are beaten when they come up against opposition from outside their provinence - and its not like they lost to the strongest teams from other provinces, last year Galway lost at home to Wexford and Mayo were put out by Longford.

The stats dont lie, Connacht is the weakest province.

blowitupref

AbsentPonderer wrote: »

I strongly believe that Limerick would have won a Connacht title over the past few years, up until this year, and excluding 07, we have consistently put the likes of Kerry and Cork to the pin of their collars in Munster.

No disrespect Limerick are about the same level as Leitrim,Sligo & Sligo won a Connacht title 07 but probably won't win another one for years.

Loads of teams got close to beating Cork,Kerry however it's another thing defeating them.

bren2001 wrote: »

I don't think Connacht get the raw end of the deal. They are the worst province but not by as much as people make it out to be.

I think its quite simple it does Munster, Ulster, Leinster, Connacht, in that order (I'm a Dublin man). Munster and Ulster have just dominated the game over the last decade. The reason I say Leinster is better is purely that Dublin are always contending with either Kildare or Meath in with a chance as well. Quite often, years go by without Connacht really making a challenge.

They are interesting stats and Connacht do have their fair share of finalists but the more interesting fact would be how many make it through the back door system imo.

Not sure about that, when was the last time Dublin reached the All Ireland final? Good thread & the OP stats shows Connacht is not as bad as Brolly,O'Rourke etc make it out to be.

Brain Stroking

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I having been looking back over the Quarter Finalists in the senior championship. In the past 5 years, the only Connaught representative in the QF has been the Connaught champions.

Since 2006, Ulster have been represented in the QF 11 times (by 6 different counties), Leinster 14 times (by 6 different counties), Munster 10 (Cork and Kerry each time) and Connaught only 5 times, the Connaught champions - who didnt have to beat a team from outside Connaught to get there.

The qualifier system means each team has a chance to reach the QF once they have been eliminated from their provincial championship. Connaught teams have been unable to reach the QF because they are beaten when they come up against opposition from outside their provinence - and its not like they lost to the strongest teams from other provinces, last year Galway lost at home to Wexford and Mayo were put out by Longford.

The stats dont lie, Connaught is the weakest province.

I disagree. As has already been stated Leinster have not had a finalist since 2001. And they lost to a Connact team that day too. Are you using weight of numbers as an excuse here? Of course Leinster and Ulster will have teams progressing to quarter finals. There are more of them. Plus they get more games.
I thought it was a joke the press the Mayo-Galway game got in comparison with Dublin-Kildare. The latter was played in perfect conditions with zero wind on a beautiful pitch in Croker. The former was played in a gale-ridden downpour on a pitch that is hugely inferior to Croker even without accounting for the weather.
As i recall there wasnt too much of a differential between the amount scored in either game.
Actually i take it back, Paddy Power seems to buy into this whole "let's ignore the playing conditions" lark. And that led me to making a tidy profit on a bet on Mayo put on at halftime

Sir Vival

rossie1977 wrote: »

while we were reduced to bringing on players that struggle to start for their intermediate clubs given the injury problems in the county last summer

Care to name a few of these players that "struggle to start for their intermediate clubs"?

Ridiculous statement altogether

theoneeyedman

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

, Ulster have been represented in the QF 11 times (by 6 different counties), Leinster 14 times (by 6 different counties), Munster 10 (Cork and Kerry each time) and Connacht only 5 times, .

12 counties in ulster, only 5 in connacht; therfore there will be more likely be more ulster teams progressing

sendit

Look at Connacht since 2007. Sligo 2007, Galway 2008, Mayo 2009, Roscommon 2010. The only provence tp have a different winner in all them years. Look at Ulster Tyrone in 2007, 2009 and 2010 and Aramgh in 2008. MUnster Cork in 2008 & 2009 and Kerry in 2007 & 2010. Lenister Dublin 2007-09 Meath 2010.

So going by that Connacht has been the most open provence

bren2001

theoneeyedman wrote: »

Correction: Kerry and Tyrone have dominated over the last decade, with cork and armagh riding shotgun, but it's inaccurate to suggest munster and Ulster have dominated. for instance, realistically how many teams would have won a connacht title over the last 10/15 years outside of the above mentioned teams and possibly Dublin? Are you siggesting Tipperary, Limerick, Fermanagh, antrim, clare or cavan would have won a connacht title, or indeed the likes of Longford, carlow, Louth or wexford. The connacht teams have held their own IMO particularly at underage level with AI wins for Mayo roscommon and Galway in the last decade. Just because teams esp. from Leinster play regular games in croker in front of live TV and big crowds does not make them better than those that don't

Well yes, Kerry and Tyrone have dominated over the past decade but Cork and Armagh are always pushing close. But when these teams play I am always interested to watch, regardless if its Kerry Waterford because I know I will see quality football from one of those teams. When I watch Connacht I really don't know what to expect. Sligo where interesting last year, I watch Galway for family connections but they are always poor and let me down, Mayo are hit and miss, very good some years, poor other years and Roscommon are not going to challenge the AI so I generally skip over them. The reason they get the "raw" deal is because the matches tend to be sloppy and not interesting.

I think Limerick may of had a chance in fairness to them. But There are plenty of other very good teams you left out. Meath, Kildare, Wexford (some years), Louth (some years) would all push for it. Donegal, Monaghan and Down would push from Ulster. I accept that Croke Park games offer more for the TV but if they were played in smaller stadiums I still think the majority of the country would want to see those games (assuming your county is not playing).

sendit wrote: »

Look at Connacht since 2007. Sligo 2007, Galway 2008, Mayo 2009, Roscommon 2010. The only provence tp have a different winner in all them years. Look at Ulster Tyrone in 2007, 2009 and 2010 and Aramgh in 2008. MUnster Cork in 2008 & 2009 and Kerry in 2007 & 2010. Lenister Dublin 2007-09 Meath 2010.

So going by that Connacht has been the most open provence

Connacht is the most open provence. It does not mean that the games are more interesting e.g. Dublin Kildare was a great match to watch (I was in Croke Park so I am bias on that) it was better than any of the Connacht games so far (London Mayo was good).

nice_guy80

you never mentioned the big advantage that Leinster teams have when it comes to quarter and semi finals - they are used to playing in Croke Park (though Dublin continually mess it up)
That is a huge advantage

Lapin

theoneeyedman wrote: »

12 counties in ulster, only 5 in connacht; therfore there will be more likely be more ulster teams progressing

9 counties in Ulster - 12 in Leinster.

Your point still holds though, obviously a province with a greater number of counties will have more counties getting through to the quarter finals.

Basic maths.

Great thread. The OP's stats prove that Leinster is the weakest province since the turn of the century. Not Connacht.

Syferus

Another point that skews the stats in terms of Connacht teams in the qualifiers is that the losing provincial finalist has to play their 4th round qualifier six days after a provincial final loss, and given how much winning Connacht means to many of the Connacht teams, the loser is usually suffering from much more serious psychological side-effects from the loss than, say, the loser of Cork-Kerry will after today.

And given that it's reasonable to assume that finalist is among the better Connacht teams in any given year it skews things somewhat. Indeed only once has the losing Connacht finalist managed to reach the All-Ireland quarter-finals.

I'm not simply excusing the poor second chance form of Connacht teams; Mayo, Galway and Sligo have in the last year all lost matches in the qualifiers that, on paper, they should have won.

It just seems that, less than being bereft of talent, skill or fitness, Connacht teams just seem to have lacked a cutting edge that separates teams like Kerry and Cork from the rest of the pack.

Someday, and hopefully soon, I fully believe one of the Connacht teams will rediscover that edge and when that happens there's more than enough passion and talent in Connacht to deliver national trophies.

bren2001

nice_guy80 wrote: »

you never mentioned the big advantage that Leinster teams have when it comes to quarter and semi finals - they are used to playing in Croke Park (though Dublin continually mess it up)
That is a huge advantage

Hey Dublin dont continually mess it up. Yes, it is a big advantage for Leinster teams to play in Croke Park and Dublin got to play all their league games their this year. That was a huge benefit to us and it has become our home stadium. But my point was not that Connacht teams dont make it to the AI final, I said they crash out in the qualifiers. The Croke Park factor is irrelevant to this.

Syferus wrote: »

Another point that skews the stats in terms of Connacht teams in the qualifiers is that the losing provincial finalist has to play their 4th round qualifier six days after a provincial final loss, and given how much winning Connacht means to many of the connacht teams, the loser is usually suffering from much more serious psychological side-effects from the loss than, say, the loser of Cork-Kerry will after today.

And given that it's reasonable to assume that finalist is among the better Connacht teams in any given year it skews things somewhat. Indeed only once has the losing Connacht finalist managed to reach the All-Ireland quarter-finals.

I'm not simply excusing the poor second chance form of Connacht teams; Mayo, Galway and Sligo have in the last year all lost matches in the qualifiers that, on paper, they should have won.

It just seems that, less than being bereft of talent, skill or fitness, Connacht teams just seem to have lacked a cutting edge that separates teams like Kerry and Cork from the rest of the pack.

Someday, and hopefully soon, I fully believe one of the Connacht teams will rediscover that edge and when that happens there's more than enough passion and talent in Connacht to deliver national trophies.

Fair point but that is poor from the Connacht Council. With so few teams in the region they should finish first. But, for the team that wins the final they are have more of an advantage as they have to wait 2 weeks for the quarter final. Unlike today when Cork Play Kerry there is a 4 week wait for them.

I think it should be rotated every year when the final in each province is.

AbsentPonderer

blowitupref wrote: »

No disrespect Limerick are about the same level as Leitrim,Sligo & Sligo won a Connacht title 07 but probably won't win another one for years.

While I agree with you that we are on a par with them now, I am referring to when Limerick were at their prime.

AbsentPonderer

rossie1977 wrote: »

down were in cruise control against the munster champions kerry the entire match though a day earlier........

That's a different debate, nothing to do with Connacht?

rossie1977

AbsentPonderer wrote: »

That's a different debate, nothing to do with Connacht?

why not, your whole point revolved around the fact that the connacht champs got beaten, completely ignoring that ALL the provincial champs were beaten at the same stage last year

AbsentPonderer

rossie1977 wrote: »

why not, your whole point revolved around the fact that the connacht champs got beaten, completely ignoring that ALL the provincial champs were beaten at the same stage last year

No it didn't? my "whole point" is to do with Limerick if you read back over what i said like. And anyway, the provincial winners falling at the quarter final stages is another debate, again...

AbsentPonderer

nice_guy80 wrote: »

you never mentioned the big advantage that Leinster teams have when it comes to quarter and semi finals - they are used to playing in Croke Park (though Dublin continually mess it up)
That is a huge advantage

That didn't prove to be a problem for other counties, why should it be such a problem for Connacht teams?

Hammer Archer

Not to be pedantic but there's only 11 teams in the Leinster championship. People have been saying that because Leinster have the most teams they'll obviously have a lot of teams in the latter stages.

But because of the large numbers in Leinster, this means 7 of the 11 Leinster teams have to start in Round one of the qualifiers. This means they have to negotiate 4 games to make the quarter finals. Meanwhile only 2 of Connachts 6 teams start there (one being London). And Leinster teams usually do well in the qualifiers while more often than no recently, the only Connacht representative in the
quarters is the Connacht champion.

While I don't think its been the case for the whole 21st century, since 2006 or so I don't think anyone could argue that Connacht isn't the weakest province at the moment.

Blackjack

crashvictim wrote: »

Apologies for the long post but this blod sums it up well.

http://spailpin.blogspot.com/2011/06/mayos-dogs-of-war-first-class-display.html

Great post.

Pete_Cavan

Lapin wrote: »

9 counties in Ulster - 12 in Leinster.

Your point still holds though, obviously a province with a greater number of counties will have more counties getting through to the quarter finals.

Basic maths.

But it is not basic maths. The open draw in the Qualifiers means that teams from the same province can be drawn against each other, this changes the permutations. For example, 5 Ulster teams go into the first round of the Qualifier whereas only two Connacht teams are in the first round. The odds of an Ulster team progressing are not as simple as saying they have 5 chances to win the 8 games. Any Ulster team has a 4 in 15 chance of being drawn against another Ulster, whereas the Connacht teams have a 1 in 15 chance of meeting each other. Two all Ulster clashes and the Connacht teams avoiding each other (statistically not unlikely) would mean only 3 Ulster teams can progress and 2 Connacht teams can progress - very similar odds. The permutations in each subsequent rounds are based on the teams that come through the round before it and also the luck of the draw so it is not as simple as saying a province with a greater number of counties will have more counties getting through to the QF. Last year Armagh put Donegal and Fermanagh out of the Qualifiers which throws out your "basic maths" theory.

You could go into the permutations of the whole thing but that would be a load of bullsh*t. The Qualifiers is a good measure for this because it pits counties against each other in a do-or-die, winner takes all match. The fact is Connacht teams have consistently failed to make it to the QF because they get beaten by teams from other provinces, and average teams from other provinces at that.

traecy1

Bring back the railway cup.

Panrich

Connacht football is definately on a bit of a downer. The underlying problem for teams in the province is population and that is on a downward spiral. This means that the whole of Connacht has less than half the population of Munster and less than a quarter the population of Leinster. It is difficult to compete on that unequal footing. Things were different in the past and in the early days of the state things were less unbalanced in this regard.

Have a look at the latest release of figures from the census.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0630/censustable.pdf

In 1926 Mayo was third most populous county in the state and Galway the fourth. The reason for the poor standard in Connacht might be that sons/grandsons of Mayo and Galway men and women are now playing for other counties instead.