Is it ever okay to knock someone down?

dillo2k10

Last week I was coming home from town, I had to drive down a skinny one way street at about mid-night. A group of people, who sounded like they were travellers, refused to move off the street and out of my way, I beeped my horn and they started hitting my car, by now there was also a few of them behind me.

I beeped again and they started hitting my windows and some tried to open the door, but it was locked. I beeped and started to move forward slowly and when my car was about to hit them they moved.

However, if they didn't move would it have been illegal for me to hit them, considering I was terrified that they were going to do something.

bath handle

dillo2k10 wrote: »

Last week I was coming home from town, I had to drive down a skinny one way street at about mid-night. A group of people, who sounded like they were travellers, refused to move off the street and out of my way, I beeped my horn and they started hitting my car, by now there was also a few of them behind me.

I beeped again and they started hitting my windows and some tried to open the door, but it was locked. I beeped and started to move forward slowly and when my car was about to hit them they moved.

However, if they didn't move would it have been illegal for me to hit them, considering I was terrified that they were going to do something.

There might be a self defence argument. It is possible that it would succeed a la Nally. The only way to be sure is to try it and see.

bath handle

dillo2k10 wrote: »

Last week I was coming home from town, I had to drive down a skinny one way street at about mid-night. A group of people, who sounded like they were travellers, refused to move off the street and out of my way, I beeped my horn and they started hitting my car, by now there was also a few of them behind me.

I beeped again and they started hitting my windows and some tried to open the door, but it was locked. I beeped and started to move forward slowly and when my car was about to hit them they moved.

However, if they didn't move would it have been illegal for me to hit them, considering I was terrified that they were going to do something.

There might be a self defence argument. It is possible that it would succeed a la Nally. The only way to be sure is to try it and see.

mikemac

During the snow there were cases of gangs of lads pushing cars that were stopped in traffic.
I don't mean helpfully pushing, more like trying to spin them.

Or opening doors and firing snowballs at people. Yeah just a snowball you say but a block of ice in the face at close range can do damage.

Drive on and let them jump OP, you beeped the horn to give fair warning and you had stopped and started to move slowly
If it's illegal for you to hit them then if one stands in front and one stands behind you would be trapped.
Drive on though no doubt one boyo will dive to the ground and try to claim compo off you if your car even brushes them

seamus

Security of your possessions will never be given priority over someone's bodily safety in law. Even if they took out sledgehammers and started battering your car to bits, your only option would be to sit there and take it, because running someone down to avoid damage to your car is kind of unreasonable.

The only situation where action would be warranted would be where you feared for your own personal safety. In that case, you would need to be reasonably sure that locking your doors and winding up your windows was insufficient.

If, for example, they smashed the window and went to grab you, I believe that you would have reasonable cause to step on the accelerator as that would be your only available means of escape or defence.

Running them down because you felt intimidated or scared by them banging on your car, I don't think would qualify as a just reason.

Thinking about it, you could in some circumstances claim false imprisonment. If they were to surround your car, preventing you from moving and you were afraid of getting out of the car, then they have effectively imprisoned you in your car. To what extent you could use force to "break out" of such a scenario, I don't know.

Kosseegan

Iris law on self defence is reasonably lenient. The potential victim is justified in using force according to the threat perceived by themselves rather than the threat a neutral observer might perceive. It is an extremely complicated matter. A jury would have to hear all of the evidence and be instructed as to the law and then decide what they believe was in the mind of the person who claimed self defence. The only guidance is not to assume automatically that self defence will always work. If I was on a jury I certainly wouldn't expect anyone to sit in a car while it was being taken to pieces. It would be a terrifying experience to be sitting strapped in a car and being surrounded by a large hostile group who were banging on the car and impeding its progress. If people offer violence they should not be surprised when they get some violence coming back at them.

The_Snapper

dillo2k10 wrote: »

I beeped again and they started hitting my windows and some tried to open the door, but it was locked.

OP,

If you have an honest held belief you are in immediate danger then you may use reasonable/justifiable force to defend yourself.

Reading from your scenario I probably would have felt an immediate danger and would have sounded the horn non stop as I accelerated through the crowd and then called police after putting a safe distance between me & the thugs, using the 999/112 line.

Did you report it?

dillo2k10

The_Snapper wrote: »

OP,

If you have an honest held belief you are in immediate danger then you may use reasonable/justifiable force to defend yourself.

Reading from your scenario I probably would have felt an immediate danger and would have sounded the horn non stop as I accelerated through the crowd and then called police after putting a safe distance between me & the thugs, using the 999/112 line.

Did you report it?

I did feel that I was in danger, and if they still hadn't moved as I drove towards them, I would have hit them. It just made me curious as to what would happen to me.

I didn't report it no. I was just happy that it was over.

B.Bop!

I agree with the Snapper. If you had a hit them I would have thought your arguments would be;

1. You needed to get out of the area immediately as you were under threat, both to you and your property and;
2. They were walking on the road as opposed to a designated area like the footpath or a pedestrian crossing.

Regardless of the intimidation factor, there is a thing called personal liability that would be taken into account meaning if these guys didnt want to be hit by a car then they should be more careful not to walk on the damn road, where the car has every right to be!!

seamus

B.Bop! wrote: »

2. They were walking on the road as opposed to a designated area like the footpath or a pedestrian crossing.

That's not really relevant. The road traffic act does not provide immunity for one road user in the event that another is breaking the law. In exactly the same way that it's not legal to ram a bus who's not driving in the bus lane or flatten a cyclist who's not in the cycle lane.
The road traffic act requires that you drive in a safe manner, in spite of what anyone else may be doing. If someone is walking in the road, you must slow down and stop, if necessary. It would not be a defence in any case to say that the person was on the road when they were not supposed to be, as you have a duty of care.

Regardless of the intimidation factor, there is a thing called personal liability that would be taken into account meaning if these guys didnt want to be hit by a car then they should be more careful not to walk on the damn road, where the car has every right to be!!

Primary law of the road is that a road user should not drive a vehicle on the road so as to present a danger to himself or another person. There is no "right" to be on the road enshrined in law, and the driver of any vehicle has a duty of care to those around him.
In the case that a driver pushed his way through a crowd, even if they were banging on his car and messing, he would be done for dangerous driving and correctly so.

The_Snapper

dillo2k10 wrote: »

It just made me curious as to what would happen to me.

OP,

It would depend on the severity of injury caused to whoever you knocked down. In some cases lethal force can be deemed justifiable or reasonable.

Statements would be taken from all concerned and any independent witnesses or CCTV etc and then it would be assessed accordingly. If the DPP felt there was a case to answer then they may prosecute you then it is down to a jury to decide your fate. It boils down to justifiable or reasonable force and the belief that you felt you were in immediate serious danger. The perps may also face charges under the Public Order Act.

The beauty of using the 999/112 line is that it is a recorded call so any stress/anxiety on your behalf would show up on the tapes after as well as your demeanor on arrival of police.

dillo2k10

seamus wrote: »

In the case that a driver pushed his way through a crowd, even if they were banging on his car and messing, he would be done for dangerous driving and correctly so.

So what would be the correct response in this situation?

If you were trapped in your car by a group of grown men, trying to open your door and hitting your car and windows, what would you do?

seamus

dillo2k10 wrote: »

So what would be the correct response in this situation?

If you were trapped in your car by a group of grown men, trying to open your door and hitting your car and windows, what would you do?

Rev my engine and/or wait it out. I would probably edge ever so slightly forward too. But I'm not going to step on the gas and run them down unless I actually think they're going to do anything to me.

B.Bop!

"Primary law of the road is that a road user should not drive a vehicle on the road so as to present a danger to himself or another person. There is no "right" to be on the road enshrined in law, and the driver of any vehicle has a duty of care to those around him."

First of all, I'd imagine this chap wasn't intoxicated, driving erractically or in a dangerous manner. Seems to me he was driving up a street where he came across these scumbags so I would dispute that you're a bit inaccurate in your quote above in that respect. Also a driver DOES have the right to be on the road. Thats what roads are there for. Same way pedestrians have a right to be on the path and cars DON'T. It may not be "enshrined" in law but it's common sense and therefore a given.

So can i ask Seamus, what would YOU have done??

Jo King

seamus wrote: »

Rev my engine and/or wait it out. I would probably edge ever so slightly forward too. But I'm not going to step on the gas and run them down unless I actually think they're going to do anything to me.

So you would knock someone down if you felt you were under threat. Same as the O/P. Dangerous driving be damned. Hypocrisy rules OK. It is all right for me to do it but not for the other fella.

The_Snapper

seamus wrote: »

Rev my engine and/or wait it out. I would probably edge ever so slightly forward too.

Op,

I would disregard this advice/opinion.

With a group of men in a narrow street at night pulling at my door handles & banging my windows I would be gone, not waiting around doing the above to see if I get a hiding or a new a*se hole ripped.

mikemac

So they smash your bonnet with a sledgehammer and you just sit there and do nothing as the legal eagles state

Security of your possessions will never be given priority over someone's bodily safety in law

Or rev the engine and move slightly forward?

Seems you need to wait until they go for your door or smash your windows and attempt to drag you out until you do anything.

Drive on OP, tell your story to a jury and take your chances. Twelve people will listen and understand your fear better then someone with a textbook knowledge of technicalities learned in a classroom

3rdDegree

seamus wrote: »

B.Bop! wrote: »

....it's not legal to ram a bus who's not driving in the bus lane or flatten a cyclist who's not in the cycle lane.

Oh, I probably should stop doing this, then.

Needler

seamus wrote: »

Rev my engine and/or wait it out. I would probably edge ever so slightly forward too. But I'm not going to step on the gas and run them down unless I actually think they're going to do anything to me.

Jaysus if they started doing damage to the car I'd knock down the ones in front and reverse over any still standing.

Chances are if they are doing that sort of thing they're fairly sure nobody's around to see them (or you knocking them)

seamus

Jo King wrote: »

So you would knock someone down if you felt you were under threat. Same as the O/P.

I never said otherwise.

But there's a difference between feeling threatened by guys banging on your car or trying to open the doors, and feeling like you might actually get injured.

You'll find drunk groups of lads do this all the time if you beep at them - bang on the car, shout at you, try to open doors to intimidate you. I would't put any specific fear in the actions of one guy trying to open the door.

The OP asked in a theoretical sense, and I responded in a theoretical sense. I don't think I ever asserted that if you felt in physical danger that you should sit there and do nothing. However, the argument in court would likely hinge on the nature of that "feeling" of physical danger.

As I said, if you drove/pushed your way through a crowd of people who happened to be on the road, you would quite correctly be charged with dangerous driving. That was in response to the assertion that a pedestrian is at fault for getting hit if he/she is standing in your way.

Milk & Honey

seamus wrote: »

I never said otherwise.

But there's a difference between feeling threatened by guys banging on your car or trying to open the doors, and feeling like you might actually get injured.

You'll find drunk groups of lads do this all the time if you beep at them - bang on the car, shout at you, try to open doors to intimidate you. I would't put any specific fear in the actions of one guy trying to open the door.

The OP asked in a theoretical sense, and I responded in a theoretical sense. I don't think I ever asserted that if you felt in physical danger that you should sit there and do nothing. However, the argument in court would likely hinge on the nature of that "feeling" of physical danger.

As I said, if you drove/pushed your way through a crowd of people who happened to be on the road, you would quite correctly be charged with dangerous driving. That was in response to the assertion that a pedestrian is at fault for getting hit if he/she is standing in your way.

There is going to come a point when anyone in a car is going to feel that they are in harms way. That is going to vary from person to person and it would ultimately be for a jury to decide if the person had reached that point. You or anybody would be justified in running someone down if the threat was serious enough.
The point about dangerous driving is a red herring. The o/p was asking specifically about a threatening situation. A pedestrian standing in your way in a situation where the car is under attack is conspiring with the attackers and is fair game. If there is no attack there would be no justification for running down a pedestrian.

ldxo15wus6fpgm

Lads, in reality, if a group of men are smashing your car up, you're going to feel a threat to your bodily integrity. If you pull away and injure one of them, I can't see a criminal case even being taken against the driver, never mind the question of self defence coming up... a civil case perhaps, but only if you smashed into one of them, if you're pulling away from a dead stop serious injuries are hardly likely?

Victor

seamus wrote: »

Thinking about it, you could in some circumstances claim false imprisonment.

There is a lesser, more appropriate charge under the Road Traffic Acts of obstructing traffic, which can even be used in the case of two pedestrians.

234

B.Bop! wrote: »

"Primary law of the road is that a road user should not drive a vehicle on the road so as to present a danger to himself or another person. There is no "right" to be on the road enshrined in law, and the driver of any vehicle has a duty of care to those around him."

First of all, I'd imagine this chap wasn't intoxicated, driving erractically or in a dangerous manner. Seems to me he was driving up a street where he came across these scumbags so I would dispute that you're a bit inaccurate in your quote above in that respect. Also a driver DOES have the right to be on the road. Thats what roads are there for. Same way pedestrians have a right to be on the path and cars DON'T. It may not be "enshrined" in law but it's common sense and therefore a given.

So can i ask Seamus, what would YOU have done??

A car has no right to be on the road. If you think that it does point to the source.

ldxo15wus6fpgm

234 wrote: »

A car has no right to be on the road. If you think that it does point to the source.

You need a license to drive a car, you don't need one to walk. Pedestrians have a right, drivers have permission.

Victor

OK, getting more hypothetical.

A raucous group of drunks are banging on your car and one of them breaks a window and starts pulling at your friend's hair. You feel you are in danger. Can you run down someone who isn't in the group?

My answer would be no, transferring the harm from one innocent part to another innocent party isn't acceptable