ATH Knockout SF1: Thebostoncrab vs Teamshadowclan

Bounty Hunter

We enter the final four now with TBC vs TSC

Simplified version of the rules:

I will post a topic and you have to post your response including why you made that choice within a given time limit (before the next match is scheduled to begin), take care while making your responses however as the other contestant can counter your arguement i.e pointing out possible flaws in what youve said.

*you can only counter an arguement two times so make sure your point is worth making. If someone's defense of their arguement isnt good it will count against them.

*You can use the same answer as your opponent if you wish i.e you agree with their choice however its hard to win a debate when your making the same points someone has already made

see the OP of the main thread for further details, the 1st match's thread or if any are needed or check out last years competition.

back to an ATH regular now with a question that has been asked in every reincarnation of the game, though the wording is slightly alterd.

Q. Who is the most underutilised member of either the WWE or TNA roster and how should their promotion be using them? Why did you choose this person and why are they a better choice than your opponents pick?

good luck

Lord TSC

Surely, SURELY, the answer to this question has to be CM Punk.

This week on Raw, Punk made his presence felt on a scale that no one has for nearly a decade. Everyone watched in awe as Punk cut a heartfelt promo that was widely regarded as the moment of the year and had many, including respected names like Shawn Michaels and Stone Cold, talking back to the “good old days” of the attitude era, a time when wrestling was at its pinnacle. Yet, although he is getting a championship match in a short while and main eventing a pay per view, the story seems destined to drift off and be completely anti-climatic; as much as we may like to wish and dream, it looks likely that come Money in the Bank, CM Punk will become another victim of the John Cena title reign and will have left the company. A man who could be the Ric Flair or Rock of this generation is being let walk out in his prime.

CM Punk could be the biggest heel to be in the WWE, or in the industry as a whole, for quite some time, but is having to fight tooth and claw to be competing at a top level. Punk has proven himself on multiple levels in a way no other wrestler has in recent times, being able to talk the talk and walk the walk. Unfortunately he has fallen victim to what I call the “Chris Jericho Phenomenon”; he is so good at making others look good and retaining his credibility, the powers-that-be have little or no interest in actually pushing him or using him correctly. They throw him into random feuds and matches just to be on TV, and then have him regularly lose his feuds. Punk has done nothing of note in the last few months or years. He has drifted into stories with the likes of Rey and Big Show and constantly loses. It is only in the last two or three weeks he has been given the chance to win matches and even then, it seems only to convince him to stay, not to actually use him correctly.

So, how would I book Punk in order to utilise him correctly? Well, let’s go with the story that’s currently running. As I said, this being WWE, Punk will likely job to Cena, leave WWE and that will be the end of it. And that’s a shame cause this angle currently has more potential than any other in the last 10 years.

First off, I’m going to do a bit of fantasy booking, based on rumours. At the Money in the Bank, I’d have CM Punk go over John Cena with help from the Kings of Wrestling, who are apparently on the verge of joining WWE. I’d then have Punk announce that he’s leaving with the WWE title.

The Raw after, I’d have Vince come out and declare that Punk, as WWE Champion, has obligations to stay and defend his title against whoever Vince sees fit. He's free to defend it elsewhere or do whatever else he wants, as he is not contracted solely to WWE, but the title must be defended. And that will mean he has to defend it against John Cena at the next pay per view, Summerslam. Vince says he won’t fire Cena because he needs Cena, and he knows Cena is his best chance of recapturing the title. But Punk says he’s not content to just sit there and wait till he loses the title to prove himself against wrestlers. He says he wants wrestling matches. I’d try and book him on a ROH card somewhere, against someone like Colt Cabana. I’d have him try and get a match in Japan, defending the title. And I’d have him in WWE, saying how he’s proving he’s the greatest WRESTLER in the world.

Summerslam rolls round, and it’s Cena vs Punk. Punk outwrestles Cena, but Cena starts to gain the upperhand when the ref gets knocked down. Vince comes down the ramp, and gets into the ring, saying he’s going to referee the remainder of the match. Cena hits the AA and Vince goes to count, Cole going crazy saying WWE will get to regain the title again.

1...

2...

Vince stops counting and looks at Cena. He shakes his head and stands up. Cena gets up and asks whats happening, when Punk rolls him up. Vince dives down and counts quickly to three, helping Punk win the match. The two retreat and Cena looks on stunned, the crowd shocked. Punk and Vince raise each others hands and the show ends.

Next Raw, Vince explains he listened to what Punk said in the shoot and he realised Punk was right; Vince is a millionaire but could and should be a billionaire. He says Punk is the best in the world at what he does, and Vince knows when to abandon a sinking ship like Cena. He says Cena is overexposed and Vince loves nothing more than building them up and knocking them down. Vince also announces that Cena will not get any more championship matches. Punk says he wants to continue proving he’s the best wrestler in the world so starts challenging others, defending his title against the likes of Kofi, Bourne and Bryan. He issues challanges to guys from Japan and Mexico as WWE tries to sign up guys for special appearances, all the while letting Punk have the matches we know he can have. And Cena can only sit and watch as Punk and Vince, along with a repowered Nexus inc. Kings of Wrestling, dominate the WWE.

The main pros of this story would be as following...
• Punk can have great matches and this story would allow him to have them. Punk would become a figure of real hatred but would be able to draw in the younger fan who wants to see him defeated but also the older fan who respects his work. In this way, we achieve the main goal of this debate; turning Punk from someone who is drastically underutilised into the hottest heel and commodity of this generation.
• The WWE title gains in credibility as well, thanks to the constant defences against a variety of opponents.
• Cena gets to move into the sympathetic underdog role who is being oppressed by Vince and Punk, a role which is more suited for his character, as opposed to the dominating champion he is today. He could be the perfect foil for Punk and by having it so that he and Punk are not fighting for months, you get a hunger brewing in all fans who want to see the culmination of the story; Punk vs Cena for the title.
• An alliance with Vince also sets up a dream match for Mania; Punk vs Stone Cold. Cena could turn to the Rattlesnake for help in overthrowing not just Punk, but Austin’s old nemesis. Being honest, Vince and Austin always bring a level of chemistry that is spine tingling and adding Punk into the mix would only add buy rates to pay per views.

I think that’s the vital part of my opening arguement actually. The importance of Punk is that, if pushed right, not only would and could he be a far bigger star as an individual, so too could he improve the entire WWE and industry as a whole.

thebostoncrab

Teamshadowclan

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Surely, SURELY, the answer to this question has to be CM Punk.

Punk would not be the first name to jump at me when I look at this question. We are being asked to debate who the most underutilised guy on either roster is, and I can think of a number of guys who are being used worse than CM Punk and deserve better than what they have. Daniel Bryan, Jack Swagger, Dolph Ziggler, Alberto Del Rio and Drew McIntyre all come to me before Punk. But there is only one name that stands out as the MOST underutilised guy since most weeks he isn't used at all besides a match on Superstars, despite him doing everything in his power to get over with the fans and have the ability to go in the ring. I am of course talking about the WWE Internet Champion Zack Ryder.

So why Ryder? Well let's first look at why I wouldn't pick Punk.

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

This week on Raw, Punk made his presence felt on a scale that no one has for nearly a decade. Everyone watched in awe as Punk cut a heartfelt promo that was widely regarded as the moment of the year and had many, including respected names like Shawn Michaels and Stone Cold, talking back to the “good old days” of the attitude era, a time when wrestling was at its pinnacle. Yet, although he is getting a championship match in a short while and main eventing a pay per view, the story seems destined to drift off and be completely anti-climatic; as much as we may like to wish and dream, it looks likely that come Money in the Bank, CM Punk will become another victim of the John Cena title reign and will have left the company. A man who could be the Ric Flair or Rock of this generation is being let walk out in his prime.

This is based on alot of "what ifs". The fact is we don't know if Punk is actually going or if he is staying put, and we won't know until the Raw after MITB. If Punk is staying put then he has been given the ball and allowed to run easily the best programe this company has seen in years. That is far from being under-used. Someone who is being under-used wouldnt be headling a PPV and been allowed to showcase his world-class skills and allowed to do what he does best.

And that's before last Monday.

Punk is a multi-time world champion. He has been involved in some of the best moments in the companys recent history. He has gone out and stole the show night after night, be it with his promos and his in-ring work. Has been used to the best of his ability? No. But he has been given alot of chances and become a household name. That's a far cry from being "the most underused guy on the roster".

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

CM Punk could be the biggest heel to be in the WWE, or in the industry as a whole, for quite some time, but is having to fight tooth and claw to be competing at a top level. Punk has proven himself on multiple levels in a way no other wrestler has in recent times, being able to talk the talk and walk the walk. Unfortunately he has fallen victim to what I call the “Chris Jericho Phenomenon”; he is so good at making others look good and retaining his credibility, the powers-that-be have little or no interest in actually pushing him or using him correctly. They throw him into random feuds and matches just to be on TV, and then have him regularly lose his feuds. Punk has done nothing of note in the last few months or years. He has drifted into stories with the likes of Rey and Big Show and constantly loses. It is only in the last two or three weeks he has been given the chance to win matches and even then, it seems only to convince him to stay, not to actually use him correctly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhzwhAYy5hA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeAVVzZuTqo

Far from randon feuds and a wrestler not being used to the best of his ability. Punk also didn't always end up on his back during these feuds and others.

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

So, how would I book Punk in order to utilise him correctly? Well, let’s go with the story that’s currently running. As I said, this being WWE, Punk will likely job to Cena, leave WWE and that will be the end of it. And that’s a shame cause this angle currently has more potential than any other in the last 10 years.

First off, I’m going to do a bit of fantasy booking, based on rumours. At the Money in the Bank, I’d have CM Punk go over John Cena with help from the Kings of Wrestling, who are apparently on the verge of joining WWE. I’d then have Punk announce that he’s leaving with the WWE title.

The Raw after, I’d have Vince come out and declare that Punk, as WWE Champion, has obligations to stay and defend his title against whoever Vince sees fit. He's free to defend it elsewhere or do whatever else he wants, as he is not contracted solely to WWE, but the title must be defended. And that will mean he has to defend it against John Cena at the next pay per view, Summerslam. Vince says he won’t fire Cena because he needs Cena, and he knows Cena is his best chance of recapturing the title. But Punk says he’s not content to just sit there and wait till he loses the title to prove himself against wrestlers. He says he wants wrestling matches. I’d try and book him on a ROH card somewhere, against someone like Colt Cabana. I’d have him try and get a match in Japan, defending the title. And I’d have him in WWE, saying how he’s proving he’s the greatest WRESTLER in the world.

Summerslam rolls round, and it’s Cena vs Punk. Punk outwrestles Cena, but Cena starts to gain the upperhand when the ref gets knocked down. Vince comes down the ramp, and gets into the ring, saying he’s going to referee the remainder of the match. Cena hits the AA and Vince goes to count, Cole going crazy saying WWE will get to regain the title again.

1...

2...

Vince stops counting and looks at Cena. He shakes his head and stands up. Cena gets up and asks whats happening, when Punk rolls him up. Vince dives down and counts quickly to three, helping Punk win the match. The two retreat and Cena looks on stunned, the crowd shocked. Punk and Vince raise each others hands and the show ends.

Next Raw, Vince explains he listened to what Punk said in the shoot and he realised Punk was right; Vince is a millionaire but could and should be a billionaire. He says Punk is the best in the world at what he does, and Vince knows when to abandon a sinking ship like Cena. He says Cena is overexposed and Vince loves nothing more than building them up and knocking them down. Vince also announces that Cena will not get any more championship matches. Punk says he wants to continue proving he’s the best wrestler in the world so starts challenging others, defending his title against the likes of Kofi, Bourne and Bryan. He issues challanges to guys from Japan and Mexico as WWE tries to sign up guys for special appearances, all the while letting Punk have the matches we know he can have. And Cena can only sit and watch as Punk and Vince, along with a repowered Nexus inc. Kings of Wrestling, dominate the WWE.

The main pros of this story would be as following...
• Punk can have great matches and this story would allow him to have them. Punk would become a figure of real hatred but would be able to draw in the younger fan who wants to see him defeated but also the older fan who respects his work. In this way, we achieve the main goal of this debate; turning Punk from someone who is drastically underutilised into the hottest heel and commodity of this generation.
• The WWE title gains in credibility as well, thanks to the constant defences against a variety of opponents.
• Cena gets to move into the sympathetic underdog role who is being oppressed by Vince and Punk, a role which is more suited for his character, as opposed to the dominating champion he is today. He could be the perfect foil for Punk and by having it so that he and Punk are not fighting for months, you get a hunger brewing in all fans who want to see the culmination of the story; Punk vs Cena for the title.
• An alliance with Vince also sets up a dream match for Mania; Punk vs Stone Cold. Cena could turn to the Rattlesnake for help in overthrowing not just Punk, but Austin’s old nemesis. Being honest, Vince and Austin always bring a level of chemistry that is spine tingling and adding Punk into the mix would only add buy rates to pay per views.

I think that’s the vital part of my opening arguement actually. The importance of Punk is that, if pushed right, not only would and could he be a far bigger star as an individual, so too could he improve the entire WWE and industry as a whole.

While a great idea for a story, it doesn't support the idea of Punk being the most underused guy on the roster. If aything it shows that Punk is able to go into the main event instantly because of how strong he has looked recently and due to his status on the roster. If he was the most underused guy on the roster he wouldn't be able to do that, since he wouldn't be on TV at all.

That is why the real answer to this question is the Woo Woo Woo Kid, Zack Ryder.


Zack has become one of the most over guys in the WWE all on his own back. His internet show gets more views than Superstars and NXT. Every week we hear "We Want Ryder" chants on Raw and see signs all over the arena, but no Zack Ryder.

The WWE preaches that to make it in the company you need to work your ass off and get yourself over, make the fans care about you and take chances. Ryder has done all of this, and he doesn't even get onto Raw or Smackdown?

"Are you serious bro?"

Ryder, like Punk, has the support of everyone in the back and those who are Vinces good side like Austin, Edge and Jericho. In fact I would say more people backstage like Ryder than they do Punk who has a habbit of getting himself into trouble with some of the guys. Ryder always plays by the rules and doesn't rub people up the wrong way.

Could CM Punk have been used better in the past? Hell yes, but he is now one of the most over guys on the roster and is headlining PPVs with the biggest angle we have seen in a long long time. Is he the most underutilised guy on the roster? Not a chance. I dont know how someone could say a multi-time world champion is more underutilised than someone who is lucky to be featured on Superstars sometimes.

So when you look at both wrestlers, the answer is obvious. Zack Ryder is the most underutilised guy on the roster.

Woo woo woo, you know it bro.

Lord TSC

See, I hate to play symantics but I’m afraid I must here.

You said...

Punk is a multi-time world champion. He has been involved in some of the best moments in the companys recent history. He has gone out and stole the show night after night, be it with his promos and his in-ring work. Has been used to the best of his ability? No. But he has been given alot of chances and become a household name. That's a far cry from being "the most underused guy on the roster".

The question is NOT “Who is the most underused guy on the roster”, because if it was, I would have started this off by laying claim to Ryder in my answer. I agree fully that Ryder is the most underused guy, simply by virtue of not being used at all. But this debate revolves around who is the most underutilised guy on the roster. That is to say, who has the most ability, in the ring and on the microphone, and yet is being wasted by WWE because they won't use them in the right way. There's a subtle difference between unused and underutilised but there is an important one. I agree Ryder is being underutilised as well; the man has charisma. But the most important part of this Punk vs Ryder debate will be as follows; Ryder is underused and untested. Punk is underutilised, but we know how great he can be.

The reason I chose CM Punk is because, as you so rightly pointed out, he is a multi-time world champ and he has been involved in some of the best moments. But they are just that. Moments. Glimpses of what he could be if the WWE really got behind him and actually gave him a sustained push at the top. Punk has proven, when given the chance, that he can draw in a crowd, that he can be intimidating, kick-ass and a brilliant character. And this has, most importantly, been when WWE have not been behind him; his world title wins were in matches where others did most of the damage (via MITB cash ins), and he was often presented as the weak underdog who was useless and only retained out of luck. He was constantly run down during his title runs. On top of that, his feuds were always onesidedd; he would prove himself in the build up on the microphone side, but he still underwent a massive losing streak. (Before his win over Rey Mysterio, his last PPV win had been at Extreme Rules 2010, over a year before, also against Rey Mysterio. For another PPV win, you have to go back to Sept 09, when he defeated Taker in a Montreal Screwjob moment. So that's 3 PPV wins in nearly 2 years. Hardly the mark of someone with his talents being used correctly). He is everything the WWE needs and could and should have been at the top of the card long before now. Yes, you say there is a lots of ifs and ands, but that’s the nature of a question like this, where we are discussing how someone should be booked.

Punk is, and by the looks of it continues to be, an enhancement talent. A top level one, but still one. Someone designed only to make others look better but never being given the chance to prove himself on the top level. But when he has been given the slimmest of chances, he’s proven that he can be not just A maineventer but THE main eventer. Yes, you can point to the moment last week and say "is he not being utilised there", but I look back over the excitement over the Nexus angle, or Bret Hart's return...do you really have faith in WWE to keep that momentum and excitement going? Do you really believe this can have a long term, long lasting effect on the company? Or is it not far more likely that WWE will balls it up, as per usual, and waste the great opportunity presented to them?

The problem with Ryder lies in that, while he is also underutilised and has obvious talents which could be exploited more by WWE, he is completely and utterly untested. Wrestling fans are fickle, so we do not know how they would react if WWE decided to start using Ryder. Sure, many would stick by him and stay interested, but ask yourself this; is the interest in Ryder because he’s proven himself in all areas of the wrestling industry? Or because he’s unused, caters to the internet, and thus is the result of being popular with fans so they can “stick it to the man.” If Ryder started getting pushed, would the interest stay as high? Or would the fact Vince has accepted he must use the guy kill off some of the appeal of the Ryder character?

Even if he is pushed, do people think Ryder will be a long term main event level propect? Is he a guy you can see headlinging WWE shows for ten years? I’m not going to answer these questions for you, because the truth is I do not know the answer. We have no real information we can use to make a prediction like that. Yeah, he’s charismatic, but then so is Punk. Yeah, he’s loved by the Internet and has mass appeal but then so is Punk. That’s the problem; Ryder and Punk are similar, but Punk is proven to have the abilities WWE needs, while we don’t know what Ryder can actually do at the top level.

The reason I list Punk as being underutilised despite his title wins and major moments is because there’s more money to make using Punk correctly than there is using Ryder. That is not to say Ryder cannot make more money than he is currently; just that the potential money Ryder could make as opposed to Punk is proportionally minor. The reason Punk is being underutilised is because he could be making WWE a lot, lot more money if utilised correctly.

To quote Punk himself...

I’ve grabbed so many of Vincent K. McMahon’s "imaginary brass rings" that it's finally dawned on me that they’re just that. They’re completely imaginary. The only thing that’s real is me. And the fact that day in and day out I’ve proved to everybody in the world that I am this best on this microphone... In that ring... Even at commentary, nobody can touch me. And yet, no matter how many times I prove it, I’m not on your lovely little collector cups. I’m not on the cover on the program. I’m barely promoted. I don’t get to be in movies. I’m certainly not on any crappy show on the U.S.A. Network. I’m not on the poster of WrestleMania. I’m not on the signature that’s produced at the start of the show. I’m not on Conan O’Brien. I'm not on Jimmy Fallon but that fact of the matter is I should be.

Punk constantly proves himself, he constantly does everything he should be doing and we all know what he can do. But WWE refuses to get behind him and utilise a guy of his ability and talent.

And that’s as a heel. Personally, I think that Punk could be even bigger than Cena if they got really behind him and really used him right. The guy has charisma and an attitude, a reality, that kids and grown ups could get behind. He leads a lifestyle that would be highly beneficial for a company like WWE, a company who has struggled for decades to portray themselves as a clean company and yet lets the one guy who is genuinely and proudly drug free go to waste. He is a great role model for kids without actually being so much of a goody-two-shoes that the older fans would turn on him.

Punk could be 100 times bigger than he is currently. Simply put, Ryder does not have the same untapped potential that CM Punk does, and to me, that makes Punk far more underutilised that Zack Ryder is.

thebostoncrab

Teamshadowclan

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

The question is NOT “Who is the most underused guy on the roster”, because if it was, I would have started this off by laying claim to Ryder in my answer. I agree fully that Ryder is the most underused guy, simply by virtue of not being used at all. But this debate revolves around who is the most underutilised guy on the roster. That is to say, who has the most ability, in the ring and on the microphone, and yet is being wasted by WWE because they won't use them in the right way. There's a subtle difference between unused and underutilised but there is an important one. I agree Ryder is being underutilised as well; the man has charisma. But the most important part of this Punk vs Ryder debate will be as follows; Ryder is underused and untested. Punk is underutilised, but we know how great he can be.

In a company where the biggest star is John Cena I think ability on the mic and character is alot more important than wrestling ability (I may not like it but that's a fact), how can anyone say that Ryder is not the most underutilised guy? You say he hasn't been tested, yet all you have to do is watch his show or see him on Superstars. The man has his character down perfect and is insanely over, yet he doesn't even get give minutes on Raw to showcase this. That to me is a massive massive case of being underutilised in a skill that is 100% prooven to entertain and get over it the crowd. And that goes past the IWC. Those chants on Raw can not be from the smart fans alone, because there simply isn't that many willing to go a show. The casual fans and kids love him. That's a rare thing for a wrestler today to be so over with both crowds, yet he doesn't even get 5 minutes? That is the pure definition of being underutilised.

Now, I am not going to tell you Ryder is better than Punk in the ring, on the mic or as a character, because he isn't. But this isn't a question on who has the best skills. You can say that Punk could become the man, but he is there. Ryder isn't given the chance to be anywhere near the level he could be, even if that's no higher than the US Title. Punk however has.

The reason I chose CM Punk is because, as you so rightly pointed out, he is a multi-time world champ and he has been involved in some of the best moments. But they are just that. Moments. Glimpses of what he could be if the WWE really got behind him and actually gave him a sustained push at the top. Punk has proven, when given the chance, that he can draw in a crowd, that he can be intimidating, kick-ass and a brilliant character. And this has, most importantly, been when WWE have not been behind him; his world title wins were in matches where others did most of the damage (via MITB cash ins), and he was often presented as the weak underdog who was useless and only retained out of luck. He was constantly run down during his title runs. On top of that, his feuds were always onesidedd; he would prove himself in the build up on the microphone side, but he still underwent a massive losing streak. (Before his win over Rey Mysterio, his last PPV win had been at Extreme Rules 2010, over a year before, also against Rey Mysterio. For another PPV win, you have to go back to Sept 09, when he defeated Taker in a Montreal Screwjob moment. So that's 3 PPV wins in nearly 2 years. Hardly the mark of someone with his talents being used correctly). He is everything the WWE needs and could and should have been at the top of the card long before now. Yes, you say there is a lots of ifs and ands, but that’s the nature of a question like this, where we are discussing how someone should be booked.

Punks a heel, he is supposed to get his ass handed to him by the face. He is supposed to win with shaddy tactics and cheaply. This is the WWE, not ROH.

You seem very quick to dismiss the many moments that Punk has created and been allowed to create. But the fact that he got to do these things shows that the WWE does have faith in Punk. And wrestling is all about those moments.

And besides, if a poor win loss record truely mattered in wrestling, then Mick Foley, Chris Jericho and Roddy Pipper would be nobodies.

Punk is, and by the looks of it continues to be, an enhancement talent. A top level one, but still one. Someone designed only to make others look better but never being given the chance to prove himself on the top level. But when he has been given the slimmest of chances, he’s proven that he can be not just A maineventer but THE main eventer. Yes, you can point to the moment last week and say "is he not being utilised there", but I look back over the excitement over the Nexus angle, or Bret Hart's return...do you really have faith in WWE to keep that momentum and excitement going? Do you really believe this can have a long term, long lasting effect on the company? Or is it not far more likely that WWE will balls it up, as per usual, and waste the great opportunity presented to them?

If Punk is good at making other guys look a thousand bucks, then surely he is being utilised for one of his strongest traits? It's hard to find someone who can make another wrestler look brilliant, and if I was Vince I would use them exactly as that.

Whether I have faith in the angle playing out well or not doesn't take away at all the point that on that Monday night Punk (on a winning streak) got to use every once of talent he has on that mic and got the world talking about him (Again). You are very quick to point out how Punk was not utilised to the best of his ability, but that's the past. Punk right now IS being used to the very best of his ability which make him far from being "the most underutilised guy on the roster".

Where is Zack Ryder now however? YouTube. Explain to me how right now that conpartison right there proves that Punk (A man who currently has the ball and fredom to be himself and is on course to the biggest main event match of his life) is more underutilised than a man who isn't allowed showcase his brilliant promo work on TV?

The problem with Ryder lies in that, while he is also underutilised and has obvious talents which could be exploited more by WWE, he is completely and utterly untested. Wrestling fans are fickle, so we do not know how they would react if WWE decided to start using Ryder. Sure, many would stick by him and stay interested, but ask yourself this; is the interest in Ryder because he’s proven himself in all areas of the wrestling industry? Or because he’s unused, caters to the internet, and thus is the result of being popular with fans so they can “stick it to the man.” If Ryder started getting pushed, would the interest stay as high? Or would the fact Vince has accepted he must use the guy kill off some of the appeal of the Ryder character?

Punk has the advantage of having more years global experience than Ryder, making it very easy for us to know what Pubk can do in the ring. How can Ryder compete with that when he doesn't even get the chance to? Ryder is a solid wrestler; yes he isn't on Punks level, but he isn't being given the chance to grow and learn to get to that level.

As I already said, Ryder is not just over with the IWC; he is over with the causal fan. The pop he gets at house shows and the hits his YouTube show get proove just that. So this is not a case of people getting behind him to simply stick it to Vince. People support him because they like him, pure and simple.

The reason I list Punk as being underutilised despite his title wins and major moments is because there’s more money to make using Punk correctly than there is using Ryder. That is not to say Ryder cannot make more money than he is currently; just that the potential money Ryder could make as opposed to Punk is proportionally minor. The reason Punk is being underutilised is because he could be making WWE a lot, lot more money if utilised correctly.

Punk constantly proves himself, he constantly does everything he should be doing and we all know what he can do. But WWE refuses to get behind him and utilise a guy of his ability and talent.

And that’s as a heel. Personally, I think that Punk could be even bigger than Cena if they got really behind him and really used him right. The guy has charisma and an attitude, a reality, that kids and grown ups could get behind. He leads a lifestyle that would be highly beneficial for a company like WWE, a company who has struggled for decades to portray themselves as a clean company and yet lets the one guy who is genuinely and proudly drug free go to waste. He is a great role model for kids without actually being so much of a goody-two-shoes that the older fans would turn on him.

Now you have lost me. If Punk turned face people would cry that he isn't being used to all his strengths, because he is strongest as a heel. No matter how good a wrestler he is though, Punk has a face would gain negative response from the fans, because it's hard to cheer the guy who claims he is better than those who don't drink when I'm holding a beer in my hand.

Punk could be 100 times bigger than he is currently. Simply put, Ryder does not have the same untapped potential that CM Punk does, and to me, that makes Punk far more underutilised that Zack Ryder is.

But Punk right now is being used on tv and is allowed to showcase his brilliant skills. He is headling a PPV in the most talked about angle of the past few years! Like I said before there are many guys in the WWE being underutilised more than Punk: Daniel Brian and Jack Swgger especially. But even they get TV time unlike Zack Ryder.

Do I think Ryder should come out tonight and be instantly crowned world champion? No, because he isn't there yet. He could be some day, but first the WWE need to realise how strong of a character they have on their hands and use him to every strength he has, which is prooven to work.

As I said, it seems insane to say that a man who is about to headline a PPV for the world title in the most talked about angle in years us more underutilised than a man who has a huge fan base but doesn't even get TV time.

Lord TSC

I'm not going to start debating the abilities of both men or a tit-for-tat arguement over how because one is good, the other is bad, since truth be told, I have respect for both men. Please do not think I am trying to suggest Ryder does not have an excellent character (remember, in the last round, I argued strongly on the strengths of Ryder's character) or that I am saying he is bad in the ring. I am a big, big fan of Zack Ryder but to me, this comes down to which one of these wrestlers has more potential to make the big, big bucks for WWE. Again, that's not to say that it has to be one or the other; in a perfect world, I'd love to see both guys utilised correctly and in a way which leads to WWE seeing great profits.

Unfortunately, this debate forces us to choose an answer, so I ask you, the reader, to consider the following carefully. If you had to take a bet on which man could be utilised in a better way for the overall benefit of the WWE, which would you choose? Ryder has potential. There is no denying that. But potential to succeed comes hand in hand with potential to fail. Ryder is being showcased on Superstars, but that is an environment where there is little pressure on him. How would he cope if he was put on Raw. Would he succeed? We cannot guarantee the answer there is a positive one. No matter how much you may like Ryder, no matter how much he has entertained, please don't be naive enough to presume that means he would definitely be as big a money maker as CM Punk could be.

For me, that's the crux of this debate. Yes, Punk is near the top of the card now. Yes, Punk has had some minor chances. But that does not mean he is being used to the best of his abilities, nor does it mean he is being utilised correctly. Punk has drifted aimlessly between feuds and stories for months now, and the moments which Crab constantly reminds me of are snippets of evidence of what CM Punk can do when given the chance. However, these chances are few and far between and it seems that they often come not because WWE are using him correctly but because he himself is intent on getting himself over and showing what he can do. These examples are a small handful of segments interspered between months of doing nothing but losing and being ignored.

Going back to semantics, this is why I chose Punk for the question; because despite how hard he tries, WWE as an entertainment machine and as a wrestling company have underutilised his abilities. They have used him, but used him poorly. They have not gotten behind him to a huge extent; the reasons people tend to love and enjoy CM Punk are mainly down to the man himself, not the company who is using him. WWE have given him title reigns, but they have been marred with poor booking and lack of confidence. They have put him in high profile feuds but rarely for long term programs and never in a really substantial way. They have placed large stables behind him but never given them a chance to get off the ground. His big moments (singing happy birthday, his shoot) have been moments where he's gone out and worked his own ass off to provide a memorable moment, moments memorable because of his charisma, not because WWE have utilised him correctly.

Granted, similar can be said about. His YouTube show has been a huge success and shows a motivation I admire. But this comes down to who can we say has the most chance of making the most money.

Crab mentions how Punk is about to have the biggest match of his career. How he's headlining a PPV. How this is proof he is being utilised. I kind of agree, but only kind of. What we are seeing in CM Punk right now is that when utilised correctly, he is a massive draw. He is someone who draws in our attention and makes us want to see what happens next. He draws us into a story. And hopefully come the show, he will draw buys and money. But this one story is not big enough to prove completely that he is being utilised correctly for any more than a two week period. And all indications are that this story will end rather abruptly quite shortly, with WWE letting their greatest potential money maker walk out the door. If WWE really cared about how good Punk was, if they really believed in him like the fans do, then he would not be walking out. He would be offered everything and anything to stay. This match is not proof he is being utilised correctly. It is proof that if he was utilised correctly over a consistant basis, Punk could be a massive, massive part in re-establishing a new glory age of WWE.

At this stage, I will step back, allow Crab to make his closing statements and wait to see how the votes go. I will say again I think this should come down to who you, the voting public, sees the most potential and long term success in. Both men are young, both are charismatic and both have tremendous potential, in my opinion, that has not been fully tapped. But who, I ask, is the safer bet? Who is it that, if WWE utilised 100% correctly, would provide the most long term and stable success for the WWE?

I thank you for reading.

thebostoncrab

Teamshadowclan

Before you all decide to vote, I want you to keep something in mind. This question is not about who will make Vince more money. This question is not about who the more talented wrestler is. This question seeks an answer to who the most underutilised member of the WWE roster is.

Could CM Punk make more money than Ryder? Yes.
Is Punk a better wrestler than Ryder! Yes.
Is CM Punk more underutilised than Zack Ryder? Not even close.

In every response I keep addressing a major point that TSC seems quick to dismiss but is huge in this debate. Punk is on the WWEs flagship every week, is currently the biggest heel on the roster and is headlining the most talked about PPV in years thanks to him bring allowed to be himself and use the best tools he has.

Zack Ryder this week was on Raw for 23 seconds.

I want you to look at those facts and honestly ask yourself do you believe CM Punk is more underutilised than Zack Ruder. Not who is the better wrestler, not who can make the most money, because that's not the question. I think you will agree that it makes no sense to pick CM Punk in this debate, and the true answer is Zack Ryder.

TSC says that he thinks Punks current position will fall flat and the WWE will drop the ball. I however disagree. The WWE has been doing a brilliant job with this angle and it looks like it will deliver past Punks promo. He also says that Punks past moments were he was used correctly was down to Punk busting his balls and not the WWE using him. The fact is in order for Punk to deliver those moments the WWE had to have had faith in him and approve what he was going to do. They most certainly do play a role in utilising Punk to the best of his abilities. And besides, no matter who deserves the props, Punk has been and currently is being used to all his greatest strengths and utilised brilliantly. The interest in this b level PPV prooves that.

My friends, you can clearly see that Punk is being utilised to all his strengths right now, they are all over this forum! But Zack Ryder still doesn't get to use his greatest strength (His charisma) on television at all.

TSC says Ryder hasn't been tested, and I will argue that his strengths are right there in front of us all and the crowd live them, yet week after week he only gets to use them on YouTube on either his own show or Superstars. The fact is Ryder is one of the most charismatic guys on the roster, yet he is never utilised and when he is on Raw it's almost always in the background while Cena makes his way to the ring.

So my fellow broskis I once again ask you to look at this debate and realise that you cannot call a multiple time world champion, Raws biggest heel, PPV headliner and guaranteed moment maker underutilised when there is a man who is watched and loved by a bigger crowd than tunes into Superstars, who's t shirt sold out, has a brilliant gimmick and can deliver in the ring yet doesn't even get a single match on Raw. Please, do the right thing and vote for Zack Ryder.

Woo woo woo, you know it.

Bounty Hunter

Teamshadowclan

with 77% of the vote TBC has defeated TSC, congrats crabby on becoming the first finalist and hard luck / well played shadow, hope to see you back for more next year