US firms struggle to fill some jobs - particularly in Science and Technology

dvcireland

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0701/jobs-business.html

http://www.amcham.ie/article.aspx?id=819

Speaking at the American Chamber of Commerce Independence Day lunch today, Mr. Gerard Kilcommins, President of the Chamber and Vice President of Global Operations for Medtronic’s Vascular businesses said that the survey pointed to the fact that the multinational sector in Ireland remains strong and continues to provide excellent employment opportunities for suitably qualified candidates.

Irish_Elect_Eng

Absolutely true.

It is very hard to find Irish E.E. and M.E. engineers at present.

Companies are going to EU candidates to fill many positions.

Offy

I recently turned down a job designing machines that make such devices, Im better off on the dole than I would be working for that company. Sad but true. Wages keep getting lower and the cost of living keeps getting higher. After more than 20 in engineering Im seriously thinking of giving up engineering or else moving back to the UK.

Irish_Elect_Eng

Offy wrote: »

I recently turned down a job designing machines that make such devices, Im better off on the dole than I would be working for that company. Sad but true. Wages keep getting lower and the cost of living keeps getting higher. After more than 20 in engineering Im seriously thinking of giving up engineering or else moving back to the UK.

It is the top-end jobs that are hard to fill, not the jobs on the factory floor. In my experience most medical-technology companies pay their engineers quite well as the risk for poor work is too high in terms of recall and patient outcomes. At present I don't know of any reasonable size medical technology company that is not doing well and some are showing significant growth.

(Certainly any design engineering job that pays less than the dole is not one that should be considered and I would hate to think that any respected medical devices company would do so.)

Perhaps you should name and shame :-O

Offy

Irish_Elect_Eng wrote: »

It is the top-end jobs that are hard to fill, not the jobs on the factory floor. In my experience most medical-technology companies pay their engineers quite well as the risk for poor work is too high in terms of recall and patient outcomes. At present I don't know of any reasonable size medical technology company that is not doing well and some are showing significant growth.

(Certainly any design engineering job that pays less than the dole is not one that should be considered and I would hate to think that any respected medical devices company would do so.)

Perhaps you should name and shame :-O

The company that offered the job designs machines for the company named in the first post. Would naming them break the charter? The offer was €35k for an Automation engineer (I've 12 years experience in automation!) which usually pays from €40 -€55 according to the salary surveys. I earned more in automation in the late '90's. Times surely have changed. €35k might sound like a lot to a recent graduate but when your pushing on 40 with four kids to feed its dole rates.

bnt

I've seen a few of these jobs advertised online. The employers appear to demand years of experience in the exact same job. I have to wonder just how they expect to fill such roles without offering people any kind of continuous education?

I mean: if you go to university and come out with a degree in Mechanical Engineering, how do you get from there to becoming the highly specialised & experienced person needed? You have to be employed before you can gain experience - no amount of solo hard work can get you over that hump. Someone has to employ graduate engineers and bring them up to speed - otherwise it becomes a zero sum game, with employers poaching experienced people from each other.

Irish_Elect_Eng

bnt wrote: »

I've seen a few of these jobs advertised online. The employers appear to demand years of experience in the exact same job. I have to wonder just how they expect to fill such roles without offering people any kind of continuous education?

I mean: if you go to university and come out with a degree in Mechanical Engineering, how do you get from there to becoming the highly specialised & experienced person needed? You have to be employed before you can gain experience - no amount of solo hard work can get you over that hump. Someone has to employ graduate engineers and bring them up to speed - otherwise it becomes a zero sum game, with employers poaching experienced people from each other.

I understand you position now. I agree that the wage that you quote is low for an experienced engineer, but as you stated it is appropriate for a graduate position.

Perhaps I can offer a different perspective, when companies post positions they need different levels of experience to meet varying business needs. The salary range is often set by HR and upper management before the hiring process starts and takes into account, Market rates, existing staff salary and the expertise needed for the role.

On the other hand the hiring manager is trying to get the best candidate, maximising experience, qualifications and other candidate skills.

So the hiring manager will interview all the best candidates making offers to the best, even if the salary on offer is less than that candidate would command for a role requiring their actual experience.

Quite often thes offers will be refused as some candidates cannot afford to take them. But equally as often some candidates will accept and try to work their way up once inside the company or looking for another role as it is always easier to get another job when you are working.

Good luck with your job search.

Sparky_Larks

Companies supplying to the biomedical industries, won;t have the same profit margins as the biomedical companies. But what I often find is that HR often ask for more experience than they are actually looking for. Yes they are hoping to get someone with 12 years precise experience for 35,000. But they will settle for someone with 3 or 4 years experience often times.

Turbulent Bill

bnt wrote: »

I've seen a few of these jobs advertised online. The employers appear to demand years of experience in the exact same job. I have to wonder just how they expect to fill such roles without offering people any kind of continuous education?

I mean: if you go to university and come out with a degree in Mechanical Engineering, how do you get from there to becoming the highly specialised & experienced person needed? You have to be employed before you can gain experience - no amount of solo hard work can get you over that hump. Someone has to employ graduate engineers and bring them up to speed - otherwise it becomes a zero sum game, with employers poaching experienced people from each other.

Excellent point bnt. I'm surprised that companies are not promoting from within, given that existing employees are presumably in the best position (experience/skills) to take on senior role. Employers spend lots on CPD, but are they getting any 'development' from it? It's much easier (and cheaper) to employ a graduate for the vacated position than hire at the top.

Irish_Elect_Eng wrote: »

I understand you position now. I agree that the wage that you quote is low for an experienced engineer, but as you stated it is appropriate for a graduate position.

Perhaps I can offer a different perspective, when companies post positions they need different levels of experience to meet varying business needs. The salary range is often set by HR and upper management before the hiring process starts and takes into account, Market rates, existing staff salary and the expertise needed for the role.

On the other hand the hiring manager is trying to get the best candidate, maximising experience, qualifications and other candidate skills.

So the hiring manager will interview all the best candidates making offers to the best, even if the salary on offer is less than that candidate would command for a role requiring their actual experience.

I understand that (in general) it's an employer's market Irish_Elect_Eng, but encouraging vastly overqualified candidates to apply for positions is counterproductive, no? It's a waste of eveyone's time, and might discourage the people you actually want applying.

A clear job spec and some salary indication would go a long way.

Irish_Elect_Eng

Turbulent Bill wrote: »

Excellent point bnt. I'm surprised that companies are not promoting from within, given that existing employees are presumably in the best position (experience/skills) to take on senior role. Employers spend lots on CPD, but are they getting any 'development' from it? It's much easier (and cheaper) to employ a graduate for the vacated position than hire at the top.

We make a policy of promoting candidates from within where available, I have benefited from that very policy. But it would shock you how little professional development many people do even when encouraged with education and other supports which are present inside the company. So often there may be no suitable internal candidate. Also there is often other benefits to bringing in outside candidates "new blood " can breath life into teams, with new skills and experiences.

Turbulent Bill wrote: »

I understand that (in general) it's an employer's market Irish_Elect_Eng, but encouraging vastly overqualified candidates to apply for positions is counterproductive, no? It's a waste of eveyone's time, and might discourage the people you actually want applying.

The job specs. that I use are clear with both qualification and experience requirements. If I state that a degree and 3 years experience is required, then that should set the expectation of the level of the position. If I need a PHD with 15 years experience in a particular field then that is what we will ask for.

If however I get overqualified and very experience folk applying for the more junior positions then I cannot exclude them from the process, as that would be unfair to them for me to assume that they really do not want the job. It is also part of my job to get the best candidate that is willing to work for the money on offer and to get the candidate that will strengthen my team's skills the most.

Turbulent Bill wrote: »

A clear job spec and some salary indication would go a long way.

I totally agree with your point on salary and all of our positions have associated pay ranges, which will be explained to candidates if they ask, but it is a bit like a game of chicken: applicant does not want to state what he is willing to work for until there is an offer, company does not want to put off prospective candidates until it can explain total benefits package (Salary + Pension + Healthcare + Employee Assist + Etc.) rather than just salary.

Offy

Irish_Elect_Eng wrote: »

We make a policy of promoting candidates from within where available, I have benefited from that very policy. But it would shock you how little professional development many people do even when encouraged with education and other supports which are present inside the company. So often there may be no suitable internal candidate. Also there is often other benefits to bringing in outside candidates "new blood " can breath life into teams, with new skills and experiences.





The job specs. that I use are clear with both qualification and experience requirements. If I state that a degree and 3 years experience is required, then that should set the expectation of the level of the position. If I need a PHD with 15 years experience in a particular field then that is what we will ask for.

If however I get overqualified and very experience folk applying for the more junior positions then I cannot exclude them from the process, as that would be unfair to them for me to assume that they really do not want the job. It is also part of my job to get the best candidate that is willing to work for the money on offer and to get the candidate that will strengthen my team's skills the most.



I totally agree with your point on salary and all of our positions have associated pay ranges, which will be explained to candidates if they ask, but it is a bit like a game of chicken: applicant does not want to state what he is willing to work for until there is an offer, company does not want to put off prospective candidates until it can explain total benefits package (Salary + Pension + Healthcare + Employee Assist + Etc.) rather than just salary.

All good and valid points, I wish all employers had the same perspective.

_Nuno_

Offy wrote: »

The company that offered the job designs machines for the company named in the first post. Would naming them break the charter? The offer was €35k for an Automation engineer (I've 12 years experience in automation!) which usually pays from €40 -€55 according to the salary surveys. I earned more in automation in the late '90's. Times surely have changed. €35k might sound like a lot to a recent graduate but when your pushing on 40 with four kids to feed its dole rates.

35K is definitely low and is considerably below most offers I have seen. What experience did they require?

As an automation engineer I am quite surprised to hear that someone with 12 years experience is having trouble finding work in Ireland. Have you any pharmaceutical or medical device experience? There seems to be a lot of demand for that.

Offy

_Nuno_ wrote: »

35K is definitely low and is considerably below most offers I have seen. What experience did they require?

As an automation engineer I am quite surprised to hear that someone with 12 years experience is having trouble finding work in Ireland. Have you any pharmaceutical or medical device experience? There seems to be a lot of demand for that.

The agency I applied through advertised the position as suitable for someone with five years plus experience. Ive turned down three offers so far this year, the difficulty isnt getting the offer, its getting a rate which reflects my experience. I have six years pharmaceutical/chemical manufacture experience. I returned to college last September and since then employers seem to be classing me as a recent graduate! Location is another factor for me, I have limited my search to Connaught which seems to be a limited field.

_Nuno_

Offy wrote: »

The agency I applied through advertised the position as suitable for someone with five years plus experience. Ive turned down three offers so far this year, the difficulty isnt getting the offer, its getting a rate which reflects my experience. I have six years pharmaceutical/chemical manufacture experience.

I think you may have to be more flexible then, at least regarding location.

Personally, I would avoid staying on the dole long term.

I have previously worked for less than I could get from unemployment benefit in my home country (Portugal), the reason being that long term unemployment looks very bad in your CV latter on, and on top of that social welfare is a dead end anyway, while a not so well paying job can at least evolve into something better and you will gain more experience.

While it may not make economical sense in the short term to work for less money than you get on the dole, in the medium/long term it may be better.

Being employed also gives much better bargaining power when looking for other jobs. You are always in a better position to get a good job being employed than while unemployed.

That's my opinion anyway.

Offy wrote: »

I returned to college last September and since then employers seem to be classing me as a recent graduate! Location is another factor for me, I have limited my search to Connaught which seems to be a limited field.

That's strange. I also went back to college and finished in 2009, but luckily I have not felt that yet as I'm employed anyway.

Anyway, best of luck. I think you should find something, but you may need to be willing to relocate or at least commute a longer distance.

dvcireland

some automation jobs in Connacht:

http://www.lotusworks.com/careers/vacancy/senior_automation_and_controls_engineer-244.html
http://www.pmgroup-global.com/index.cfm/page/viewjob/jobid/1985/c/INT
http://www.careerjet.ie/automation-engineer-jobs/connacht-37063.html