Achieving a 3-day week

digiology

Hi all,

I'm considering moving to Dublin with an aim toward getting a "real" job but with an average of 3 days a week (and perhaps on call for the other 2).

Now you may think I'm crazy but I'm willing to sacrifice for this. In addition to having a lower (3/5ths) salary, I would be willing to work unpaid for a number of months if necessary (hoping they keep their side of the deal if I am as competant as I say I can be).

My degree is in computer science but I'm out of practice and would need time to get up to speed. I believe this is normal anyway because software companies have their own processes, technologies etc.

I do know a few people who, after a number of years in a company, were able to negotiate such an arrangement. I'd like to speed this process up, I would be willing to work a 5-day week, possibly unpaid, but for a maximum of 6 months.

My question concerns the psychology of this. How do I convince an employer that this does not mean I'm lazy or that it is indicative of a poor work ethic?

Also, any tech companies in Dublin that are worth a try would be appreciated.

I was considering typing up a letter explaining why, I essentially want to grow myself an intellect and this will take years of reading. The sentiment would be something like Damon Horowitz's "Quit Your Technology Job and Get a Humanities Ph.D." video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DBt9mVdgnI) but in letter form.

Any pointers are much appreciated.

digiology

Anybody?

Delancey

TBH I must admit to struggling to understand what exactly your question is OP . I fear that others may have had the same experience and this may explain the absence of replies - perhaps rewording your question may help ?

Pablo Sanchez

If you want to work a three day week surly it would just be simpler to apply for a part time job?

digiology

Yeah but then I'd be flipping burgers or whatever, I don't see any part-time jobs in software for example. That'd be fine in the short-term but I want something long-term.
Something where I'm challenged and have opportunity to grow would be ideal.

digiology

Delancy, thanks, I'd rephrase it if I could but for some reason I cannot edit the post anymore.

To put it simply, I want to get a "real job", perhaps in the software industry with an average of three days work per week (30 hours tops, preferably fewer).

nyarlothothep

While I applaud the fact that you want to develop yourself intellectually I don't think you'll get many enlightened/understanding replies in this forum. In addition I don't think its likely that employer will be convinced at all as they're concerned with the bottom line as opposed to what their employees want. The business is essentially prioritized over individual needs. However it may be possible to find part time work in IT. Moreover I think that it may be possible to combine both in a job but the search will probably be long and hard, though nothing worth having comes easy usually. Maybe a comp sci PhD? That would involve a combination of work and intellectual stimulation.

syklops

I dont understand why you want the 3 day week. Thats a very unusual thing to want, and to be honest I think you are limiting the number of jobs you could apply for with your Com Sci degree, which is not a great idea to do in the current job market.

Apart from the fact you are rusty, do you have other reasons for wanting a 3 day week? I assume you want the other 2 days to study and get up to speed.

digiology

nyarlothothep, you're probably right, an employer in the software industry will probably find it hard to see how it would help the bottom line.
I wonder if there are other lines of work (outside academia) where such self-investiment would be more valued and valuable. My computer science degree is only a starting point and I'm willing to learn anything.
I also had been considering a PhD, in fact I spent that last year working toward that, unfortunately it'll take longer to get to the point where I can get funded (my field is roughly in music cognition, obscure right?!).


syklops, I have other interests outside of what I'm qualified to work at and I want to explore these.
I would not necessarily limit myself to this at the beginning but want to reach a 3-day week as quickly as possible.

digiology

A friend of mine gave me some tips on this today.

His plan was:

-Move to Dublin, somewhere central or on a luas line.
-Choose some particular technology to specialize in.
-Find a small business in Dublin, work for a year, be a model employee.
-After a year, attempt to negotiate fewer hours suggesting that you'll leave if you cannot (the cost of retraining a new employee is an insentive for them to be somewhat accomodating)
-If this fails, leave company and do contract work of a similar/familiar nature (taking breaks between projects so I have more free time).


My plan had been:

-Send letters to employers suggesting that I work for nothing (for 3-6 months) under the (informal!) condition that they would strongly consider offering me a position at 3 days a week if I really am as awesome as I say I am. I would explain that I want a long-term stable relationship (a happy employee, open to growing within the company!)
-Do the internship, stick around if I like the place.
-Bask in 3-day glory.


Also, I came across this: http://www.irishjobshare.com
I'm not mad, see?

gline

if you offer yourself free for 3-6 months a lot of companies will just take advantage of that unless there is a written agreement that they will hire if you you meet certain targets etc. Also a lot of employers dont care whether their employees are happy or not (just look at the work problems forum here), at the end of the day they just want the job done. I'd say part-time or contracting maybe your best bet or working for 1 year then negoitating a 3 day week, but in the latter you would have to make youself totally unreplaceable for the company to consider it, that would probably include taking on lots of extra responsibilities outside the job scope for no extra pay and bsically working your ass off for the year. Even then I have worked in places where staff tried to negotiate 4 and 3 day weeks after working for 2years+ in the position and they were very good at their job too (consistently getting top reviews) and they were all shot down when asking to cut back, of course this was different circumstances to you etc but im not sure your chances are good.

digiology

Thanks gline, its good to get an idea about how realistic it is.

The idea wasn't that I'd make myself unreplaceable but that I would get to know their system well enough (and in software, systems can be quite specific to a company) such that the cost of retraining another employee would be greater than the cost of giving me a 3 or 4-day week. I suspect this would work better in a small business.

The psychology of this is interesting, people clearly want to keep control, its not just about practicality. Thats evident in your phrase "shot down".

Thoie

A number of the larger American companies do 4 days weeks quite regularly - essentially you work 40 hours over 4 days (reduced lunches, etc), and get full (5/5) days pay. Many allow working from home x days per week.

Having someone only working 3 days a week in software would be a bit of a PITA for most companies. It makes scheduling meetings more awkward ("We've got this urgent change in things that we need to discuss today, but Digi won't be back till Wednesday"). It also plays havoc with things like out of hours release/patches.

Job sharing is more suited to more administrative positions generally (where it doesn't matter if it's Mary or Digi who signs off on those invoices, or who books that appointment). If you're halfway through writing your piece of code, Mary'll waste a lot of time tomorrow trying to figure out where you were and what approach you're taking, no matter how well you've commented/documented things.

digiology

I should clarify that I'd be able to be on call during days off and that 3 days would simply be an average (calculated over the course of a month or two for example). So I would remain flexible as to what days I work so I could make meetings and do full weeks/fortnights when deadlines are approaching.

It would be like having more holidays but with a substantial number of them being unpaid. They could be approved by a manager with these things in mind.

Irish_Elect_Eng

+1 Thoie's thoughts above.

I think that your plan needs more thought, you have focused on what suits you rather than how you would fill a need for a prospective employer.

Believe me, there are very few irreplaceable employees (Even though there are plenty that think that they are :-( ). Most employers will let you go if you threaten to leave as they will see this as breach of trust.

Have you thought of seeking work in a seasonal or contract based industry so rather than having4/7 days off you could have 6/12 months off or somthing similar. Like those people that work on oil-rigs or ships.

digiology

You're probably right about admin work. I wonder if there are any jobs that would be similarly unproblematic (and perhaps commonly jobshared) that might be a little more stimulating?

Just off the top of my head, I could do research, technical writing, maybe data analysis (after a bit more study).

digiology

Irish_Elect_Eng wrote: »

Have you thought of seeking work in a seasonal or contract based industry so rather than having4/7 days off you could have 6/12 months off or somthing similar. Like those people that work on oil-rigs or ships.

Yup, I am seriously considering this as the best option. I am worried about how long it might take to get employable enough that I'm somewhat secure taking long breaks (6 months on 6 months off would be great).

Mrs OBumble

digiology wrote: »

His plan was:

-Move to Dublin, somewhere central or on a luas line.
-Choose some particular technology to specialize in.
-Find a small business in Dublin, work for a year, be a model employee.
-After a year, attempt to negotiate fewer hours suggesting that you'll leave if you cannot (the cost of retraining a new employee is an insentive for them to be somewhat accomodating)
-If this fails, leave company and do contract work of a similar/familiar nature (taking breaks between projects so I have more free time).


My plan had been:

-[TELL THEM UP FRONT]

TBH, I think his plan is more likely to work.

You' re not nuts: I'd love to work 3 days/week in a professional job with a professional salary, and have 2 days/week to work on my own projects. Doubt I'll ever find a company that will allow it. Even in the multi-nationals, my understanding is that it's mainly people who are spreading their maternity leave over a longer period who get to work 4 day/weesk.

I don't believe you should offer to work for free, or tell them of your plans long term: they won't take you seriously, and in the current market it will just be a reason to not hire you.

My advice: get a f/t job, and concentrate on growing as many niche skills as you can. Resign yourself to f/t for at least 2 years of this. Then look for part time opportunities - you may get someone who wants a widget-whatever specifialist for only 2 days/week or suchlike.

gline

digiology wrote: »

The psychology of this is interesting, people clearly want to keep control, its not just about practicality. Thats evident in your phrase "shot down".

yeh totally agree. A lot of jobs could be done from home with just a good phone line and internet connection these days as thats how far technology has come but some companies are unwilling to allow this even just 1-2 days a week. Some of the reason is control.

syklops

JustMary wrote: »

TBH, I think his plan is more likely to work.

You' re not nuts: I'd love to work 3 days/week in a professional job with a professional salary, and have 2 days/week to work on my own projects. Doubt I'll ever find a company that will allow it. Even in the multi-nationals, my understanding is that it's mainly people who are spreading their maternity leave over a longer period who get to work 4 day/weesk.

I don't believe you should offer to work for free, or tell them of your plans long term: they won't take you seriously, and in the current market it will just be a reason to not hire you.

My advice: get a f/t job, and concentrate on growing as many niche skills as you can. Resign yourself to f/t for at least 2 years of this. Then look for part time opportunities - you may get someone who wants a widget-whatever specifialist for only 2 days/week or suchlike.

I dont think he is nuts to want it, I just think he is nuts to think he will be able to do it in as short a time as he plans. The only companies I know who give you time off to persue 'other projects' are companies like Google, but in those cases the 'other projects' usually have some kind of business potential. I work for Red Hat and they give time off for other projects, but again its projects that may have possible benefit to the company. I could take(if I had the time), a day off a week to bring my skills in Python up to a higher level, but they wouldnt give me a day off a week to improve my golf handicap.

digiology wrote:

You're probably right about admin work. I wonder if there are any jobs that would be similarly unproblematic (and perhaps commonly jobshared) that might be a little more stimulating?

So your looking for an unproblematic, stimulating job which you could job share so you get 3-4 days off a week? Part time tech support is all I can think of, and its not entirely unproblematic, and not entirely stimulating.

His plan was:

-Move to Dublin, somewhere central or on a luas line.
-Choose some particular technology to specialize in.
-Find a small business in Dublin, work for a year, be a model employee.
-After a year, attempt to negotiate fewer hours suggesting that you'll leave if you cannot (the cost of retraining a new employee is an insentive for them to be somewhat accomodating)
-If this fails, leave company and do contract work of a similar/familiar nature (taking breaks between projects so I have more free time).

Thats a decent plan alright, you just need to think about a few other things. Cost is one. Its not cheap living in Central Dublin or on the Luas line. The other is time. How long will it take you to find an area to specialise in, find a job in that area, work in it for a year(which is a very short time in the early days of your career), build your skillset so that you are respected enough in the company to be able to ask for less time, etc. all the while living in Central Dublin at 400 euro a month minimum in rent.

digiology

Thanks again for all your responses.


I think working FT and later doing contract work is probably the best plan. If I'm not mistaken contract workers don't get paid holidays, but surely they can take days off right? How about if I took one weekday off each week?



I should have become a dentist or pilot or something! I'd do any job that demands fewer hours.

syklops

digiology wrote: »

I should have become a dentist or pilot or something! I'd do any job that demands fewer hours.

Well, why dont you do something you enjoy? That way you wont always be looking to reduce how many hours you do. Instead you might even want to put in extra hours.

digiology

Its not so much about enjoyment as it is about exploring and accomplishing certain things.
I'd be happy working as a music scholar/composer and I am pursuing that, on the way however it would handy not be flipping burgers. I actually find software development quite stimulating and often enjoyable, I just have other interests that demand my time.

Hopefully I'll figure something out along the way anyway!

daigo75

gline wrote: »

yeh totally agree. A lot of jobs could be done from home with just a good phone line and internet connection these days as thats how far technology has come but some companies are unwilling to allow this even just 1-2 days a week. Some of the reason is control.

Completely agree with gline, most employers and/or managers are control freaks. I have extensive experience in software development and I know that objectives are what counts, not "office hours"; however, it seems that most managers don't care, if you're not in the office you're not working (whether you deliver or not); absolutely idiotic.

I can also bring my experience on the topic of being irreplaceable: it doesn't work, plain and simple. I've been irreplaceable in many companies where I worked and it was awkward: everything "depended" on me, so I had to be available all the time, even after hours or on holiday (memorable the email of a former boss, stating that "I remind you of the good habit of checking your work email several times a day when on holiday"). No reward was ever given for that, and, when I went to ask for something, I was told that my requests were ridiculous, that I was arrogant and that I was there to work, not to ask for benefits.

Threatening them to leave won't work either, they will take it as blackmailing and will let you go to show that "you aren't so important, after all". In worst case, when I quit because of all the stress (70 hours working weeks), I've been called names by the employer and accused of trying to sabotage them. Ironically, I've been relatively lucky, I know a guy who was actually kicked (literally, a kick in the a$$) when he gave his resignations.

All these bad experiences led me to think differently: absolute tactics don't work. My approach is now the following:
- Be helpful, but not irreplaceable.
- Be available, but not a slave.
- Be friendly, but professional.
- Make your employer/customer happy to be working with you, but only as long as you are happy to work with them.

The above are all sorts of positive reinforcements, and will give you a higher chance to obtain what you are looking for. Good luck!

digiology

I think I get what you're saying. If I understand you, working too hard and being too dedicated devalues you and causes you to lose the respect you need for such a negotiation to be successful.



I was speaking with my friend again and he was telling me that in companies with small development teams (i.e. 2 or 3 devs) where it takes months to train someone on their specific system, this is where an employer really does not want you to leave. In fact he claims to have been begged to stay in a similar situation.