Questions

dlofnep

How would would say "I am going to X", as in "I am going to go somewhere", opposed to "I will be going somewhere" or "I am going"?

Chomh maith leis sin, cad is brí le "i do sach"? Cloisim é an t-am ar fad, ach ní thuigim é.

craoltoir

Tá mé ag dul go Baile Átha Cliath ach i dtosach caithfidh mé ticéad traenach a cheannach.

deirdremf

dlofnep wrote: »

How would would say "I am going to X", as in "I am going to go somewhere", opposed to "I will be going somewhere" or "I am going"?

Chomh maith leis sin, cad is brí le "i do sach"? Cloisim é an t-am ar fad, ach ní thuigim é.

"Tá me chun"
Tá mé chun dul go Sligeach.
Rachaidh mé go Sligeach amárach.

Tá mé chun bróga nua a cheannacht.

"i dtosach"
Tá mé chun dul a choladh, ach glanfaidh mé mo chuid fiacla I dTOSACH.

deirdremf

craoltoir wrote: »

Tá mé ag dul go Baile Átha Cliath ach i dtosach caithfidh mé ticéad traenach a cheannach.

Ní aontaíonn mé leis seo: ciallaíonn
"Tá mé ag dul go BÁC"
go bhfuil tú ar an mbealach.
Cloisim daoine ag rá "Tá mé ag dul go BÁC amárach" mar aistriúchán ar "I am going to Dublin tomorrow". Ach ní Gaeilge mhaith é.

pog it

Tá mé le dul go...

Aard

pog it wrote: »

Tá mé le dul go...

To me, that means more "I'm meant to go to..." Compare:
- Tá mé le dul ann amárach, ach faraor níl fonn orm.
- Tá mé chun dul ann amárach, ach faraor níl fonn orm.

The first implies that I agreed to go, but I might cancel at the last minute due to being "sick" or something The second implies that I'm going to, but somewhat grudgingly.

dlofnep

Grm agaibh

pog it

Aard wrote: »

To me, that means more "I'm meant to go to..." Compare:
- Tá mé le dul ann amárach, ach faraor níl fonn orm.
- Tá mé chun dul ann amárach, ach faraor níl fonn orm.

The first implies that I agreed to go, but I might cancel at the last minute due to being "sick" or something The second implies that I'm going to, but somewhat grudgingly.

I don't agree Aard. To my mind 'tá mé le dul go Londain' means 'I am to go to London'. That doesn't necessarily translate to 'I'm meant to go to London' unless you want to read that into it.

I would say 'tá orm dul go Londain' would be closer to meaning 'I'm meant to go to London' as well as its more obvious meaning 'I have to go to London'.

That's my take on it anyway..

deirdremf

pog it wrote: »

I don't agree Aard. To my mind 'tá mé le dul go Londain' means 'I am to go to London'. That doesn't necessarily translate to 'I'm meant to go to London' unless you want to read that into it.

I would say 'tá orm dul go Londain' would be closer to meaning 'I'm meant to go to London' as well as its more obvious meaning 'I have to go to London'.

That's my take on it anyway..

I feel that "tá me le" means I intend to or I'm supposed to do something; it's as though there's an ulterior motive involved. Not exactly an imposition, but something outside of myself.
But still I feel you could use it as a sort of a future, ok.

Though I'd favour chun over le. It's more neutral, like.

Aard

pog it wrote: »

I don't agree Aard. To my mind 'tá mé le dul go Londain' means 'I am to go to London'. That doesn't necessarily translate to 'I'm meant to go to London' unless you want to read that into it.

I would say 'tá orm dul go Londain' would be closer to meaning 'I'm meant to go to London' as well as its more obvious meaning 'I have to go to London'.

That's my take on it anyway..

You're right, it's not exactly "meant to", which is a bit strong. There certainly is a "decision" element to it though, which grammatically makes it a kind of mood. "Tá mé chun" is more of a tense, which makes it more appropriate for the OP's question.


(Sorry if it looks like I'm splitting hairs here It's just that I'm totally interested linguistics, and I love these discussions about little grammatical things! It's rare to find people actually interested in talking about them )

pog it

deirdremf wrote: »

I feel that "tá me le" means I intend to or I'm supposed to do something; it's as though there's an ulterior motive involved. Not exactly an imposition, but something outside of myself.
But still I feel you could use it as a sort of a future, ok.

Though I'd favour chun over le. It's more neutral, like.

I think the difference between 'chun' and 'le here' might have more to do with dialect differences. I haven't yet heard anyone in Conamara say 'chun' in this context (I'm not a native speaker so this is to the best of my present knowledge..).

It may well be down to personal usage. If I wanted to say I was going to go somewhere I'd use 'le' ... but this could well vary.

pog it

Aard wrote: »

You're right, it's not exactly "meant to", which is a bit strong. There certainly is a "decision" element to it though, which grammatically makes it a kind of mood. "Tá mé chun" is more of a tense, which makes it more appropriate for the OP's question.


(Sorry if it looks like I'm splitting hairs here It's just that I'm totally interested linguistics, and I love these discussions about little grammatical things! It's rare to find people actually interested in talking about them )

No probs! I find this helpful too

Actually 'I'm meant to' has two kind of meanings anyway really doesn't it, as in 'I am supposed to' and 'I should' so I get what you mean by it being a mood.

dlofnep

What about (and I only hear this phoentically, but this is what it sounds like) 'mo gcoinne' - I hear it as the context of "Oh féach ar mo gcoinne" which I see in my head as "Look at yer man"?

Enkidu

pog it wrote: »

I think the difference between 'chun' and 'le here' might have more to do with dialect differences. I haven't yet heard anyone in Conamara say 'chun' in this context (I'm not a native speaker so this is to the best of my present knowledge..).

It may well be down to personal usage. If I wanted to say I was going to go somewhere I'd use 'le' ... but this could well vary.

As far as I'm aware the preposition was originally chun, with chugam, chugat, chuige, e.t.c. being its inflected forms. However in Conamara they borrowed the third person form into the basic form of the preposition, hence they now have chuig instead of chun.

A lot of the uses of chun/chuig have been taken over by ag in Conamara. If you have Learning Irish by Ó Siadhail a lot of the uses of ag given for Cois Fharraige are originally chun/chuig uses.

Aard

dlofnep wrote: »

What about (and I only hear this phoentically, but this is what it sounds like) 'mo gcoinne' - I hear it as the context of "Oh féach ar mo gcoinne" which I see in my head as "Look at yer man"?

"Mo dhuinne" would be quite common for "yer man" (or woman!). Maybe they say it fast so that the "gh" sound turns into a simple "g" sound?

dlofnep

Aard wrote: »

"Mo dhuinne" would be quite common for "yer man" (or woman!). Maybe they say it fast so that the "gh" sound turns into a simple "g" sound?

Ah right, thanks I assumed that's what it meant.

deirdremf

pog it wrote: »

I think the difference between 'chun' and 'le here' might have more to do with dialect differences. I haven't yet heard anyone in Conamara say 'chun' in this context (I'm not a native speaker so this is to the best of my present knowledge..).

It may well be down to personal usage. If I wanted to say I was going to go somewhere I'd use 'le' ... but this could well vary.

If you're only talking about intention to make a journey, I'd probably agree with you. Tá mé le goil Gaillimh amárach. But as a general future intention, chun would be more used in Conamara. Tá Síle chun pósadh, tá Coilmín chun teach a thógáil.

Enkidu wrote: »

As far as I'm aware the preposition was originally chun, with chugam, chugat, chuige, e.t.c. being its inflected forms. However in Conamara they borrowed the third person form into the basic form of the preposition, hence they now have chuig instead of chun.

A lot of the uses of chun/chuig have been taken over by ag in Conamara. If you have Learning Irish by Ó Siadhail a lot of the uses of ag given for Cois Fharraige are originally chun/chuig uses.

Chuig -> ag is used as a preposition alright, but it is not used in the sense of a future marker to the best of my knowledge.

Enkidu

deirdremf wrote: »

But as a general future intention, chun would be more used in Conamara.

Do they use chun at all in Conamara, I've only ever seen chuig used, at least in writing.

deirdremf wrote: »

Chuig -> ag is used as a preposition alright, but it is not used in the sense of a future marker to the best of my knowledge.

Oh you're absolutely right, just a general remark.

pog it

Deirdre like I said above I'm pretty sure that they don't use chun in this context in Conamara.

I wonder have we any native speakers about who could clarify this for us.

Enkidu

I think chun can mean several things when used with a verbal noun.

First: Intentional
Táim chun Spáinnis a fhoghlaim = I'm going to learn Spanish
Táim chun capall a dhíol = I'm going to sell a horse

I think in this use it is replacing the old preposition ar tí, so these sentences would have been:

Táim ar tí Spáinnis a fhoghlaim

This is the reason Spáinnis or capall aren't in the genitive (Tuiseal ginideach), because ar tí didn't take a genitive.

Second: "Ready to"

Táim chun dul = I'm ready to go.
Táim chun admháil go.... = I'm ready to admit that.....

Third: Intentional infinitive = "in order to"

Chuaigh mé ansin chun ól = I went there in order to drink/ I went there to drink.

If the verb is Tá you use le

Táim anseo le ól (le n-ól) = I am here in order to drink/I am here to drink.

Chun also has other prepositional meanings, but anyway. Is this right?

deirdremf

Enkidu wrote: »

First: Intentional
Táim chun Spáinnis a fhoghlaim = I'm going to learn Spanish
Táim chun capall a dhíol = I'm going to sell a horse

I think in this use it is replacing the old preposition ar tí, so these sentences would have been:

Táim ar tí Spáinnis a fhoghlaim

Ar tí is used when you are about to do something, like right now.
Chun is more general - it could be something you're going to do tomorrow, next week, next year.

Bhí an oíche ar tí titim. (bhí sé deireannach sa tráthnóna)
You couldn't say Bhí an oíche chun titim in the same way. It just doesn't have the same meaning, the same immediacy.

P. Breathnach

deirdremf wrote: »

Ar tí is used when you are about to do something, like right now.
Chun is more general - it could be something you're going to do tomorrow, next week, next year....

I'd be inclined to the opinion that ar tí does not really include intention. It's somewhat neutral in that respect, any intent being more-or-less satisfied by your reaching the point of execution -- just as in English, when you say "I'm about to start" you are not really making a statement of intention.

"Chun" does include intention, but you should interpret it in terms of the Irish culture: intention does not assure performance.

pog it

deirdremf wrote: »

Ar tí is used when you are about to do something, like right now.
Chun is more general - it could be something you're going to do tomorrow, next week, next year.

Bhí an oíche ar tí titim. (bhí sé deireannach sa tráthnóna)
You couldn't say Bhí an oíche chun titim in the same way. It just doesn't have the same meaning, the same immediacy.

Endiku said the 'old preposition'............

Enkidu

Sorry, I explained myself terribly. Ar tí used to be used for both cases* I believe**, until chun began to be used for one of them. I realise the way I wrote it implied that ar tí is gone now.

*Actually I think ar tí used to be for a lot of things that it isn't used for today.

**A Grammar of the Modern Irish Language, C.H. Hamilton Wright, 1860.

pog it

Enkidu wrote: »

Sorry, I explained myself terribly. Ar tí used to be used for both cases* I believe**, until chun began to be used for one of them. I realise the way I wrote it implied that ar tí is gone now.

*Actually I think ar tí used to be for a lot of things that it isn't used for today.

**A Grammar of the Modern Irish Language, C.H. Hamilton Wright, 1860.

When you said 'old preposition' I took that to mean you were talking about how it was used previously and not the modern context where it means 'about to' do something, etc. so the uses could therefore have been different previously

Enkidu

pog it wrote: »

When you said 'old preposition' I took that to mean you were talking about how it was used previously and not the modern context where it means 'about to' do something, etc. so the uses could therefore have been different previously

Sorry for the confusion!:)
Previously it was part of the commonly used participle system. Basically iar, ag and ar tí used to be seen as past, present and future of one system.

So you had:
Ní raibh tart orm iar ól na dighe dom = I wasn't thirsty after I drunk the drink.

(dighe is the old genitive of deoch)

Today this would be said with:
Ní raibh tart orm tar éis ól na dí dom
or
Ní raibh tart orm tar éis an deoch a ól dom

ag obviously for ag ól just like today.

However ar tí used to mean more things as well, all future uses. It's primary one was about to, but I think it used to be used for intend to, before chun took over.

Zmej

Hi! I'm from Croatia and would like to learn how to speak irish. Please help me, any advice is welcome.