How bad is living in Greece?

Chris_5339762

We hear all about the Greek riots because of the austerity and taxes, but what I havent heard about is what austerity has actually happened and how much taxes have gone up.

Anyone on here have that information? Say you were living in Greece about 5 years ago, how much tax would you pay and how does that compare with now? And how much have wages gone down?

Does it compare in any way to what we've done?

myleftfoot

Dunno the answer to your question exactly, but here's a copy & paste:

1. Taxes will increase by 2.32 billion euros this year and 3.38 billion, 152 million and 699 million in the three subsequent years. There will be higher property taxes and an increase in the value-added tax (VAT) from 19 percent to 23 percent.
2. Luxury levies will be introduced on yachts, pools and cars and there will be special levies on profitable firms, high-value properties and people with high incomes.
3. Excise taxes on fuel, cigarettes and alcohol will rise by 33%.
4. Public sector wages will be cut by 15 percent.
5. Defense spending will be cut by 200 million euros in 2012 and 333 million each year from 2013 to 2015.
6. Education spending will be cut by closing or merging 1,976 schools.
7. Social Security will be cut by 1.09 billion euros this year, 1.28 billion in 2012, 1.03 billion in 2013, 1.01 billion in 2014 and 700 million in 2015. There also will be means testing, and the statutory retirement age will be raised to 65 from 61.
8. The government will privatize a number of its enterprises, including the OPAP gambling monopoly, the Hellenic Postbank, several port operations, Hellenic Telecom and will sell its stake in Athens Water, Hellenic Petroleum, PPC electric utility and lender ATEank, as well as ports, airports, motorway concessions, state land and mining rights.
9. Only one in 10 civil servants retiring this year will be replaced and one in five in coming years.
10. Health spending will be cut by 310 million euros this year and 1.81 billion euros from 2012 to 2015.

helimachoptor

I've a very good friend who is Greek. At the moment he is in crete having just got married to a girl there she is a teacher he is a consultant for ericsson and is teleworking, he's working for Ericsson Spain at the moment. It will not have a big impact on him as he pays his taxes in Spain. His wife has had paycuts.

My friends father had a pension of 800 euro per month to support him and his wife she has a state pension and he worked for the state telecom company. His pension has been cut. My friends sister and her husband are both doctors in state hospitals, he has been laid off and she is on short time. So basically for his family it is a mess.

3 years ago he wanted to go home to Greece and he said to me if he can get a company to pay him 2000 nett a month he will take it they offered him 1300 nett. This guy normally earns 80 euro an hour he spoke to a friend of his who moved back to work in the IT department of a private hospital they cut his pay from 1000 per month to 650. Honestly it is not a good place to be.

helimachoptor

The black economy had always been prevalent in Greece but my friend estimates for every 2 euro that is spent on a service that is taxable there is another euro being spent on it where it's nixers etc so it leading to a deepening spiral

Nijmegen

The big Greek problem is the black economy. They're not so fond of paying tax in Greece. So their taxes will go up, but in reality their tax will be more coming into line with what they should be paying by the headline rates....

I recall a report recently that pointed out that every single member of the Greek parliament was likely lying to pay less property tax (there's a common way of doing this in Greece). Starts at the top and winds down.

ninty9er

It'll be a whole lot worse in 3 weeks if they don't agree to the above.

Basically anybody paid by the Greek equivalent of the Paymaster General will not be getting paid anything at all, Greece will be insolvent with no cash or way to get it.

It'll happen here if we insist on keeping superfluous hospitals, schools, roads and civil and public servants.

Pay will have to be cut significantly in the public sector or it will be cut altogether.

later12

The first problem in Greece is not the black economy. The first problem is what happens when the taxes are paid. Greece needs to sort out how it is going to make its public sector more efficient, and then look at pulling in the tax to support it.

Nijmegen

later10 wrote: »

The first problem in Greece is not the black economy. The first problem is what happens when the taxes are paid. Greece needs to sort out how it is going to make its public sector more efficient, and then look at pulling in the tax to support it.

I think they need to try the novel approach of going after both at once.

murphaph

Nijmegen wrote: »

I think they need to try the novel approach of going after both at once.

From my reading of various Greek blogs and German news reports, the private sector in Greece attempts to hold on to its money by fair or foul because they view the state sector as completely incompetent and corrupt. In a state where almost half of all employees work for the state or semi state, they have even bigger problems than us....though we need to get our PS pay and SW bill into something resembling normal as well.

I just thank God Ireland has a private sector that generates genuine export wealth, in spite of the fact that it's still far too difficult to start a business in Ireland than it should be.

Neddyusa

ninty9er wrote: »

It'll happen here if we insist on keeping superfluous hospitals, schools, roads

:rolleyes: And what about superfluous zombie bank liabilities???

TBH schools, hospitals, roads and PEOPLE need to be prioritized. Until the people and the government put basic health and education higher in our priorities than propping up crippled banks and a crippled common currency, this country will never recover.

As for pay rates I agree, but you cannot slash basic health and education service provision without first slashing the suffocating banking bailouts.

Nijmegen

murphaph wrote: »

From my reading of various Greek blogs and German news reports, the private sector in Greece attempts to hold on to its money by fair or foul because they view the state sector as completely incompetent and corrupt. In a state where almost half of all employees work for the state or semi state, they have even bigger problems than us....though we need to get our PS pay and SW bill into something resembling normal as well.

I just thank God Ireland has a private sector that generates genuine export wealth, in spite of the fact that it's still far too difficult to start a business in Ireland than it should be.

Very true. I was sitting the other night watching Greece news coverage and it made me feel better about our situation.

I then flicked on one of these programs about fat families. It made me feel better about the chocolate peanuts I was eating.

WalterMitty

Average gross pay for public servants here is close to 50k . In Greece it is close to a third of this yet prices arent much cheaper. Makes ya wonder how Greek public servants survive on pay one third of irish rates when the irish public servants claim they can take no more pain.

later12

murphaph wrote: »

I just thank God Ireland has a private sector that generates genuine export wealth, in spite of the fact that it's still far too difficult to start a business in Ireland than it should be.

In what way?

ninty9er

Neddyusa wrote: »

:rolleyes: And what about superfluous zombie bank liabilities???

Let's see:

€37bn in, €59bn out...that leaves a shortage of oh....€22bn to run the country, every year unless cuts are made.

Can you please let me know where any money from the €37bn we are budgeted to actually bring in ourselves has gone to a bank?

Knock yourself out and let me know how you get on.

jased10s

ninty9er wrote: »

Let's see:

€37bn in, €59bn out...that leaves a shortage of oh....€22bn to run the country, every year unless cuts are made.

Can you please let me know where any money from the €37bn we are budgeted to actually bring in ourselves has gone to a bank?

Knock yourself out and let me know how you get on.

sounds like Ireland but not so bad, We have more out than in ....

gigino

WalterMitty wrote: »

Average gross pay for public servants here is close to 50k . In Greece it is close to a third of this yet prices arent much cheaper. Makes ya wonder how Greek public servants survive on pay one third of irish rates when the irish public servants claim they can take no more pain.

I know an Irish public servant on yet another exotic long haul holiday at the moment, and more complaining about their holiday home abroad, course they can take more pain.

Scofflaw

gigino wrote: »

I know an Irish public servant on yet another exotic long haul holiday at the moment, and more complaining about their holiday home abroad, course they can take more pain.

gigino, is that post an unwelcome sign of the return of your previous trolling on the issue of PS workers? The trolling that resulted in a ban?

If so, I think we both know where it will lead.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Brussels Sprout

Just reading about the Greek situation they seem to have all of our problems but worse:

Unemployment: higher
Bloated and dysfunctional Public Sector: way worse
Corruption: on a different scale altogether
Black Economy: Rampant across all walks of society
Illegal immigrants: right on the border of Asia minor, so they have been engulfed

I actually felt myself being oddly comforted that there's an EU country in way more of a mess than we are.

RichardAnd

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Just reading about the Greek situation they seem to have all of our problems but worse:

Unemployment: higher
Bloated and dysfunctional Public Sector: way worse
Corruption: on a different scale altogether
Black Economy: Rampant across all walks of society
Illegal immigrants: right on the border of Asia minor, so they have been engulfed

I actually felt myself being oddly comforted that there's an EU country in way more of a mess than we are.

Yes, it seems that God created Greece to make Ireland look ok...;)

Tazz T

I lived in Greece for two years. The whole problem there comes down to culture. We look down on tax evasion and ripping people off, the Greeks see it as the norm. In fact, they boast about not paying tax and getting more out of someone by ripping them off. It's probably the same way as our alcohol culture where we laugh about getting so drunk we fall over. The Greeks would go 'huh, that's funny?'

Corruption exists from the bottom to the very top. The people know that the government are corrupt and ripping them off at every turn so they do the same. And the bureaucracy to do something legally is horrendous. I was self-employed. There you have to pay an accountant a monthly wage to do your tax, you can't do it yourself. It was €70 per month. That's on top of a million fees and charges for forms and stamps. Well over a grand a year before you pay any tax or national insurance.

All this in a place where wages are incredibly low. There is no incentive to pay tax. Most restaurants/bars (on the islands anyway) don't pay tax for their staff. And when you're earning about €1 a hour you're hardly likely to pay it yourself.

The Greeks have no exports. Tourism is their only real source of income of any note. But prices have been going through the roof and an additionally 33% on excise tax and luxury tax on boats will kill what's left of that. Again, there's too much bureaucracy to export anything. And it's too expensive. Backhanders left, right and centre. As for the public service. You have to be served by three people to pay a water bill, for example, one is employed to make use the other isn't being corrupt.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the Greeks will default. That is what they want. They will go back to the drachma. They were just waiting to get this last handout. None of it will be paid back. That is the Greek way. The whole attitude is 'we've had hard times before - we will survive.' And they will.

They should never have been allowed to join the euro.

McTigs

at least they get a summer

RichardAnd

McTigs wrote: »

at least they get a summer

I actually like Irish weather, nice and cool for most of the year so I never worry about being too hot

McTigs

RichardAnd wrote: »

I actually like Irish weather, nice and cool for most of the year so I never worry about being too hot

i'd like to never worry about being too wet is all, each to their own i guess.

Back on topic, i holiday in crete regularly (south end of the island is lovely), i'd have to disagree with Walter Mitty, everything is way cheaper in greece, the essentials like groceries, property, beer.... it looks from the outsiders view at any rate like a much simpler lifestyle.

Not that i'm sympathising with our PS mind.

Tazz T

McTigs wrote: »

i'd like to never worry about being too wet is all, each to their own i guess.

Back on topic, i holiday in crete regularly (south end of the island is lovely), i'd have to disagree with Walter Mitty, everything is way cheaper in greece, the essentials like groceries, property, beer.... it looks from the outsiders view at any rate like a much simpler lifestyle.

Not that i'm sympathising with our PS mind.

There is a vast disparity in pricing between the islands where there is an monopoly on the supermarkets or property prices will be more expensive. Crete is cheaper being a bigger island.

The 33% increase on excise duty as part of the latest austerity measures will bring the price of alcohol a lot closer to Irish levels.

Black Swan

MOD COMMENT:
This thread is being moved to the Living Abroad forum, as it pertains to living in Greece and not the Irish Economy. It will be moved locked, so that the mods in Living Abroad may review and consider the appropriateness of it for their forum.

Fysh

Mod note:

I'm re-opening this thread for discussion on the experience of living in Greece from the context of personal experience. Please keep the discussion helpful and on-topic, sticking to first-hand experience whenever possible.

Zambia

With the decline in pretty much everything what are the chances of people being able to buy property and retire in Greece?

Or live there in general?

In every cloud one should look for the silver lining. Does anyone living in Greece now have any feedback as how life would be like if earning outside of Greece but living in?

Jim2007

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Does it compare in any way to what we've done?

I can't claim to know much about it but I did pick up a few things over the last few weeks:
- Cleaners in the dept. of finance are paid more than managers in other government departments
- Combined social security charges about to 44% of the salary, that is 16% employee and 28% employer contributions
- profits and gains from the shipping industry, which is very big there, are actually tax free!

Everything I hear makes me think it is much closer to Romania or Bulgaria than the other member of the Euro zone.

Jim
Jim.