Is it time for a new league?

eagle eye

The recent activity in the transfer market has me wondering if its time to split the league up.

As a Blackburn fan I'm fed up of just surviving in the Premier League year after year with little or no hope of winning anything or getting into Europe.

Whats the point in having such an uncompetitive league from the point of view of 12 or 14 teams who make up the also rans?

The recent transfer activity has seen even Aston Villa firmly put in their place for the third year running. They have sold three players they didn't want to lose in Gareth Barry, James Milner and now Ashley Young. And they have a billionaire owner.

Sunderland, another club with a billionaire owner, have had the same thing with Jordan Henderson being sold to Liverpool. Darren Bent going to Aston Villa must have been a right kick in the teeth for their fans but it just looks like a move from one also ran to another to me. My own Blackburn who also have billionaire owners now have seen Phil Jones plucked from them by Manchester United and it looks certain that Chris Samba will be following him out the door to another of those big clubs. Its got to the stage where we are just feeder clubs to the bigger ones.

Its all well and good for the massive fan bases of these clubs but its no fun for the rest of us. I'd prefer to see a split where those teams were put out in a small league on their own and the rest of us were left in a competitive division. I think those big clubs should be excluded from one of the domestic cups to have some trophy there that is realistically open to the other clubs. I know there have been some different recent winners of those cups but for the majority of the last ten years its been shared by a very small number of clubs.

Anyways thats my bit of a rant and honest thoughts on how I feel as a fan of an also ran in the current Premier League system. The age of a great manager at a well run club winning a league is gone, its just all about money these days. Unless some sort of cap rule comes into the game its only going to get to a stage where less and less teams will be able to compete financially.

smokedeels

That league would be effectively a lower tier of the premier league... the championship?

stovelid

Support Barcelona.

All the cool kids are doing it these days.

I am pie

Suppose the new financial rules are aimed at addressing the imbalance, don't see them having a major effect tho.

Same situation occurs in most leagues around europe, the elite remain the elite. It's much worse in Spain than in England.

The one thing which i prefer (and it's the only thing!) in US sports is the greater spread of title winning teams. Draft system and salary caps really helps keep the leagues competitive. Not going to happen here tho, no concept of college players, can't see a salary cap ever being implemented.

dsmythy

Get relegated and your sorted.

tolosenc

Euro League: Real, Barca, Valencia, Man United, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Marseille, Lyon, Ajax, Juventus, Inter, Milan, Roma, Bayer Leverkusen, Bayern Munich, Porto, CSKA Moscow, Shakhtar Donetsk, Steaua Bucharest.

Johner

No.

flahavaj

The top 4 should break away and make their own leage where they playe each other home and away 8 times over the course of the season. To keep things interesting they should decide the winners on the aggregate scores of all matches. Imagine a final day scenario where United needed a 7-6 win or better over Chelsea to clinch the league title, it would encourage attaccking football. Clubs like Blackburn and Sunderland could be affiliatd with one of these big 4 and give potentially world class stars like Bebe and Michael Mancienne somewhere to earn their crust while lering the humility that comes with slumming it in more unfshionable surroundings. I also think this split should happen ASAP because Liverpool currently aren't in the Top 4 and the forum would explode if we had 8 Utd/Liverpool Match Threads per season.

super_furry

Premier League is so mainstream, I prefer to support indie teams like FC Suðuroy and Víkingur. They're coming out with some really darkcore alternative football but you probably haven't heard of them.

eagle eye

I am pie wrote: »

Suppose the new financial rules are aimed at addressing the imbalance, don't see them having a major effect tho.

Same situation occurs in most leagues around europe, the elite remain the elite. It's much worse in Spain than in England.

The one thing which i prefer (and it's the only thing!) in US sports is the greater spread of title winning teams. Draft system and salary caps really helps keep the leagues competitive. Not going to happen here tho, no concept of college players, can't see a salary cap ever being implemented.

Its not worse in Spain because at least sides have a chance of making Europe and the Champion's league too.

Backstreet Moyes

tolosenc wrote: »

Euro League: Real, Barca, Valencia, Man United, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Marseille, Lyon, Ajax, Juventus, Inter, Milan, Roma, Bayer Leverkusen, Bayern Munich, Porto, CSKA Moscow, Shakhtar Donetsk, Steaua Bucharest.

Why would Liverpool be ahead of Man City or Spurs if their was a Euro League? Also why would the German champions not make it, strange list.

Unearthly

It will effectively be another Championship making it even easier for the top clubs to buy your players.

eagle eye

Nuts102 wrote: »

Why would Liverpool be ahead of Man City or Spurs if their was a Euro League? Also why would the German champions not make it, strange list.

In fairness Liverpool are probably bigger on a global scale right now than those two clubs combined.

eagle eye

Unearthly wrote: »

It will effectively be another Championship making it even easier for the top clubs to buy your players.

Yeah it probably would be but at least it would be competitive. What about the idea of one of the domestic cups excluding lets say all teams that have qualified for Europe that season?

flahavaj

I also doubt Eagle Eye had any complaints when his club Blackburn were being funded by a rich owner and effectively bought the championship back in the mid-90's. It seems these things are only a problem when someone else has the money and you don't.

Backstreet Moyes

eagle eye wrote: »

In fairness Liverpool are probably bigger on a global scale right now than those two clubs combined.

Whats that got to do with anything if you want a more competitive league Spurs and City are better teams than Liverpool, so they should be in a Euro League.

eagle eye

Nuts102 wrote: »

Whats that got to do with anything if you want a more competitive league Spurs and City are better teams than Liverpool, so they should be in a Euro League.

I think they should all be in it. Just saying Liverpool are a bigger club globally is all.

Zebra3

flahavaj wrote: »

Imagine a final day scenario where United needed a 7-6 win or better over Chelsea to clinch the league title, it would encourage attaccking football.

Be probably handier just to win 2:0.......

flahavaj

Zebra3 wrote: »

Be probably handier just to win 2:0.......

Not in this league. Things will be different in this league.

Mitch Connor

eagle eye wrote: »

Yeah it probably would be but at least it would be competitive. What about the idea of one of the domestic cups excluding lets say all teams that have qualified for Europe that season?

On the face of it, that is not a bad idea.

Firstly, I wouldn't do it for the FA Cup - there is too much tradition there to be banning teams from it. The Carling Cup is a far more viable option - we have seen that the top clubs don't take it too seriously for the most part, but still do very well. It would reduce the chances of young players getting a chance at the top clubs, but maybe that would help to distribute players a bit more.

One issue with this, and I am sure there are many, is that the Carling Cup is better timed for the big clubs. Sure, they chose not to take it seriously for the most part, but it is a choice they make and not one that is forced on them by the fixture list. Look at the FA Cup and Man United over the last couple of seasons. We have made it to the semi-final a couple of times, and gone out with weakened sides on a couple of occassions - this is a direct result of the FA Semi final being placed very close to big Premier League games and big Champions League games - the FA Cup will come 3rd in priority to those two competitions. Where the Carling Cup is concerned, there is far less pressure in terms of European Games around Carling Cup fixtures.

Also, I think you could only provide Europa League places for the winner - a CL spot would be a no go for me, because a CL spot can be lost through poor performances of the clubs involved. It would be stupid to risk the 4th spot. This then becomes an issue with the Europa League. Liverpool didn't take it seriously, Villa didn't take it seriously, Spurs didn't take it seriously. Fulham did, and did well, to be fair. The Clubs that make the EL need to take it seriously when they get there - but with the amount of games played in that competition if the teams in it have any designs on a CL place (Spurs, Liverpool for eg) they can't really AFFORD to take it seriously. Given the competitiveness of the league, could teams in mid table afford to take the chance of the EL and the possible relegation that could come along with taking it seriously (and the demands on their squad). The EL is also no money spinner - I believe Fulham spent more competing in it (and doing well - bonuses) than they recieved from the competition, so is there a real benefit to it at all?

I do get your overall point though - it must be hard supporting a team that does pretty much nothing apart from exist year in year out, to fulfill fixture lists and little else. Yes, there is emotion in the support of your team, and I don't want to take away from that, but there can be little excitement overall during a season.

In terms of a league split, I don't see how it could actually work. If you take the top sides out (from England, Italy, Spain, France, Germany, Holland etc) you could have a great Euro League - and that is where the players would want to play - so regardless of Spurs/Liverpool/Whoever (just mentioning teams not finishing top 4) winning the new English league, it still isn't the 'big one'. It would massively devalue the competition, though maybe that wouldn't matter to clubs that don't have a history of winning it often. Would you have promotion to/relegation from this Euro League? It would be hard to work.

On a previous mentioned facet - the FFP - it will NOT redress the imbalance imo, it will further cement the top sides.

If it is rigidly enforced, and teams banned from Europe if they do not comply, United, for example, would walk the league in England. Our general profits (at least those that relate to FFP) are way, WAY, ahead of the compeition - we could outspend everyone apart from maybe Bayern Munich every summer. City would be screwed. Chelsea would be screwed. If FFP is enforced as they claim, it will make it harder for teams to push to the next level. Spending like we have seen at City most recently in England, or Malaga in Spain (as another good example) should be done away with, as it is in no way sustainable. This is, of course, my main reason for believe FFP will be completely fudged - because Barcelona, Real Madrid, Chelsea, City will all fall foul of it - and Uefa won't punish them enough to make them truly change their spending behavior.

Mr Alan

How does debt work in these FFP rules Mitch?
For example does the debt currently associated with Utd stand against them if the rules are enforced?

ynwa_17

http://www.birminghammail.net/birmingham-sport/birmingham-city-fc/birmingham-city-fc-news/2011/05/16/birmingham-city-europa-league-details-confirmed-97319-28700900/

http://www.staffs.ac.uk/schools/art_and_design/journalism/staffslive/wordpress/2011/05/11/tony-pulis-delighted-at-stoke-citys-europa-place/

LightningBolt

I'd love to see a league that was run similar to the NFL in America. Don't ask me how the hell it would work but I think it would be a far fairer league than currently exists.

JokerD

Unfortunately it's becoming similar in The Championship, clubs getting relegated are getting parachute payments which is a kick in the teeth for teams in the division who might be finally thinking this year is their year. The figure is £22.4m over two years I believe.

So we've already seen West Ham signing Nolan and apparently he's on a massive contract, this won't guarantee success but is a big coup for them. Money in football can be very hard to grasp sometimes....I read an article saying the debt in The Football League is £700 and 80% of that is in The Championship so teams coming down from the Prem should make them massive favourites to go back up. Doing a 'Blackpool' is very hard.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/13724949.stm

I support Leeds and it's said we're one of not many teams to turn over a profit in The Football League last year. However despite running a tight ship a team like us will find it very hard to compete with clubs who have been taken over. Last year QPR were the richest club in the division and got promoted, so far this West Ham and Leicester are the teams splashing the cash. One has the parachute payments and one has had a takeover.

Another thing which can be quite confusing is hearing about all this debt and listening about individual clubs and their apparent financial trouble, yet you still see them buying players and paying a decent wage. So I know it's frustrating, but football is being taken over by money for a while.

Mitch Connor

Mr Alan wrote: »

How does debt work in these FFP rules Mitch?
For example does the debt currently associated with Utd stand against them if the rules are enforced?

I don't know the full ins/outs of it off hand, but from what I have read (I will take a look for the articles) United made a "FFP profit" of 60+million last accounts - while City and Chelsea, for example, with between 60 and 100 million in DEBT for that same year period.

I think it is all based on football income and outgoings - so United'd takeover debt is not an issue. Money out is more transfer spend and player wages. Money in is match day income and sponsorship deals (which have to be 'market value' according to Uefa so Abramovic can't sponsor Chelsea himself for 200million per season for an adboard, for example)

As I say, I will take a look for the articles, but i think the crux of it is based on football based Operating Profits.

Mitch Connor

Here is an article on FFP and how it seems to be worked out.

http://andersred.blogspot.com/2011/04/financial-fair-play-crunching-numbers.html

As you can see, based on 09/10 figures, United and Arsenal are sitting pretty in terms of the English game.

parker kent

Nuts102 wrote: »

Whats that got to do with anything if you want a more competitive league Spurs and City are better teams than Liverpool, so they should be in a Euro League.

That point proves the futility and stupidity of any Euro League suggestion. Do you base it on the teams who happen to be good at that particular time? Which eliminates the possibility of new teams ever emerging/re-emerging and winning the league. Like Blackburn did in 1995. Like Man City will likely do in a few years.

Any Euro League created now would have City. But if it were created in 1999 City would have been lost forever (given any Super League will kill what is left behind) since they were 2 divisions below the top flight.

The only system is the current system. Anything else would kill football as we know it.

POSSY

Maybe just rename the Championship as "Premier League B" and get relegated?

In all seriousness this sounds like the idea of the kid who owned the football but always got picked last anyways, if you want a lesser quality league just so you can have a chance of winning it, wouldn't that a bit of a hollow victory?

The_Kew_Tour

stovelid wrote: »

Support Barcelona.

All the cool kids are doing it these days.

Most Liverpool fans I know support them now too....

SDTimeout

Such a change would only give people another reason to lambast FIFA when it inevitably failed anyway.

dsmythy

Nuts102 wrote: »

Whats that got to do with anything if you want a more competitive league Spurs and City are better teams than Liverpool, so they should be in a Euro League.

Whoever is accepted into the league will get an instant reputation and financial boost.

homerjay2005

if the "lower teams" pull out, then the lose all the money. the big 4 or 5 teams are the ones that attract all the TV money but it is shared evenly. if they leave, then the knock on effect is huge. the championship would suffer big time also.

i always wondered if united pulled out of the tv deal, what would happen? are they allowed to do it and go on there own?

flahavaj

Mr Alan wrote: »

How does debt work in these FFP rules Mitch?
For example does the debt currently associated with Utd stand against them if the rules are enforced?

Being in debt isn't a problem AFAIK as long as the debt is being serviced.

grenache

Championship > Premier League

Lucan Bohs

grenache wrote: »

Championship > Premier League

LOI > championship + Premier League

Ebbs

Mr Alan wrote: »

How does debt work in these FFP rules Mitch?
For example does the debt currently associated with Utd stand against them if the rules are enforced?

I dont believe so. They can still "break even" with the debt. The only measure of debt taken into account is the repayments made are obviously a deficit in the books. Debt is not a retained loss but instead a seperate entinity.

Eventually clubs who break even every year will have no debt due to a sustained period of meeting repayments.

Paully D

I'd like to see the Carling Cup winners and FA Cup winners get a Champions League spot along with the top 2 in the Premier League.

Dempsey

The premise of this thread is a utter fail given the standing that Blackburn once held.

eagle eye

Dempsey wrote: »

The premise of this thread is a utter fail given the standing that Blackburn once held.

You are making it about my club only? That is an utter fail of a statement. I'm talking about all the also rans here not just Blackburn Rovers.

It wasn't the same back then either. Now any promising England player is being taken by the big clubs. Its gone beyond ridiculous, there is no chance of a smaller club being able to build a team. You have effectively got 5/6 teams controlling the league.

In the last 15 years only 3 sides have won the top league in English football. In the previous 15 it was 6 teams and the 15 before that it was 9. Its heading to a stage where its going to be between 2 sides just like Spain but unlike Spain there is a guarantee of who will be the top 5 or 6 every season. I want my team to have a chance at some honours but its become financially impossible and getting worse year after year to compete with those big 6. We are heading to a stage where something is going to give. We have had more clubs go broke in the last 3 years than in all the time I've been watching football and I'm older than most on here.

Mitch Connor

Paully D wrote: »

I'd like to see the Carling Cup winners and FA Cup winners get a Champions League spot along with the top 2 in the Premier League.

You think Birmingham could cope in the CL next season? Not a hope - they would get thrashed and it would massively impact the existence of 4 spots in the CL to begin with. How would Pompey, or Everton, or West Ham, or Millwall have done? Wigan?

Giving a CL spot to a team that haven't shown themselves to be one of the best sides in the country would put the CL places at risk, not a good idea imo.

eagle eye

Personally I don't think any team should be in Europe every year unless they win their league. This is killing the game in England for all but a handful of clubs. Its gone on far too long as it is. Maybe that fair play award should be a Champion's league spot. Give the other clubs some semblence of a chance at getting some much needed big money. Its just the rich getting richer and the not so well off getting poorer every year now.

Mitch Connor

which will just result in england losing CL spots. Awesome idea.

SteelyDanJalapeno

On a side note,

In this proposed new league, I've always wished to see a system similar to rugby league being introduced, where a club receives a bonus point for scoring say over 4 goals,

Would make it the most interesting league in the world!

nullzero

super_furry wrote: »

Premier League is so mainstream, I prefer to support indie teams like FC Suðuroy and Víkingur. They're coming out with some really darkcore alternative football but you probably haven't heard of them.

Tch, I used to like them until everyone heard of them and ruined things.

Beefy78

The problem isn't the Premier League, it's the Champions League which has created a cartel of mega-clubs who receive far more money than everyone else and have somehow managed to perpetuate the myth that finishing 4th is a success.

SlickRic

there is no way of solving this problem unless we get rid of sugar daddys (a la City breaking into the top 4, and Spurs the previous year with their seemingly endless supply of funds)...

...as well as getting rid of all the money in Champions League.

no restructuring of the League will solve the problem

it will just make it really messy, and the EPL will eventually lose more and more of its CL spots with certain clubs never being able to compete.

there is no solving the issue for mid-table, lower table and non-rich owner clubs.

money has football's soul; we all know that.