Pathetic Motorways Ireland

Sponge Bob

I am a fan of the collection of crap roads and vapourware roads that one finds on Pathetic Motorways over in the UK eg

http://pathetic.org.uk/features/mighthavebeen/regions/scotland/

I mailed the lads to see if they will host an Ireland section Lets see what happens.

Get them tractor pics ready lads

r3nu4l

Well they have the N32 listed as the M32 on the 'secretive' motorways section so that's a start

Aard

The N32 isn't really a motorway, because it doesn't lead inescapably to the M1 / M50.

However the "Airport Motorway" is designated as mway it'd seem, yet it too is escapable.

dubhthach

Aard wrote: »

The N32 isn't really a motorway, because it doesn't lead inescapably to the M1 / M50.

However the "Airport Motorway" is designated as mway it'd seem, yet it too is escapable.

I assume you mean that you can escape it by going around the roundabout and heading back to airport? Just recall that when it was built there was no roundabout as all the traffic on the "short M1" went along the "Airport Motorway" to join the N1. Obviously they never updated the leglisation to reflect this -- same reason the stub is still part of the M1 no doubt

L1011

...and we have a number of actual inescapable spurs of significant length (nearly all in Meath!) which aren't designated motorway or signed inescapable.

Aard

Speaking of spurs, the N10 springs to mind.

Jayuu

Aard wrote: »

The N32 isn't really a motorway, because it doesn't lead inescapably to the M1 / M50.

Part of it does.

Once you cross the roundabout at Bewleys Hotel heading west you inevitably end up on a motorway because the old M1/M50 roundabout is still part of the M50 motorway.

In fact the NRA map actually shows it as motorway although it doesn't give it a designation (only using the N32 from the Bewleys roundabout on). On OpenStreetMap somebody has incorrectly designated the old roundabout as part of the N32 but this is flatly contradicted by this map. It would be great if somebody could correct that, if they have access to updating on OpenStreetMap.

NRA M50 Junction Map

Aard

The OSM guys are pretty thorough in their labelling of roads; if it's now green (i.e. N) it might have something to do with the freeflowing of the M50/M1 junction. Maybe the roundabout was downgraded at the same time.

Does anybody know where the last word is on this? Is it in some code with the Dept of Transport?

Jayuu

Aard wrote: »

The OSM guys are pretty thorough in their labelling of roads; if it's now green (i.e. N) it might have something to do with the freeflowing of the M50/M1 junction. Maybe the roundabout was downgraded at the same time.

Does anybody know where the last word is on this? Is it in some code with the Dept of Transport?

Given that the NRA map was produced at the time of the upgrade one would have thought that they knew what they were doing. It has all the correct designation at the other junctions. Personally I think this was somebody on OSM assuming that the roundabout was being downgraded.

IrlJidel

Jayuu wrote: »

Given that the NRA map was produced at the time of the upgrade one would have thought that they knew what they were doing. It has all the correct designation at the other junctions. Personally I think this was somebody on OSM assuming that the roundabout was being downgraded.

You can see the history of the edits here:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/30719518/history

version 6 states "Removed motorway status from stub from former M32. Signing is still confusing, but all indications are that motorway status was removed with the new junction layout. These roads do not lead inescapably to a motorway"


If the junction is a motorway then the stretch between the roundabout at Woodlands would also have to be motorway. http://osm.org/go/es@XHJ6d

We can't use NRA published maps - can anyone verify that there is signage to indicate that the motorway starts at Woodlands?

Stark

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I am a fan of the collection of crap roads and vapourware roads that one finds on Pathetic Motorways over in the UK eg

http://pathetic.org.uk/features/mighthavebeen/regions/scotland/

I mailed the lads to see if they will host an Ireland section Lets see what happens.

Get them tractor pics ready lads

But all of our motorways are excellent imo.

If I was to pick, it'd probably be the M2 simply because it doesn't really go anywhere (waiting for a local from Ashbourne to come along and jump down my throat ).

etchyed

Yeah, apart from the N/M32, there isn't really anything in Ireland that would fit onto that website. Britain has a long history of motorway building, unfinished plans and downgrades of bits of road leading to all the anomalies and short stretches of motorway over there.

Ireland's motorway network is newer, and all of the motorway construction of the last 10 years was pretty straightforward. I think Stark's right in saying that the shortest isolated stretch of motorway is the M2, and even it make sense, as it's at the "Dublin end" of a national primary.

The inclusion of the N32 on that website demonstrates that the creator is quite happy to include Irish examples. It's just that there aren't any.

EDIT: Directly contradicting myself here, but I've just realised the N10 would be a good candidate for secretive.

munchkin_utd

Aard wrote: »

Speaking of spurs, the N10 springs to mind.

Indeed.

Is it signed as banned to pedestrians etc at the rounabout opon entering the Kilkenny spur heading for the motorway?

Pathetic it definitely is - seeing as here on google maps you can see the sign to warn that this road inevitably drags you onto the motorway BUT its too late already!!!
The road is already separated by bollards and is separated with a solid concrete barrier just a couple of hundred metres down the road.
Even if you wanted to pull in to a do a u turn through the bollards, theres little to no hardshoulder so you'd be stopping on a sliproad to a motorway with traffic coming at you at 100kmh (+++) !!

hi5

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Indeed.

Is it signed as banned to pedestrians etc at the rounabout opon entering the Kilkenny spur heading for the motorway?

Pathetic it definitely is - seeing as here on google maps you can see the sign to warn that this road inevitably drags you onto the motorway BUT its too late already!!!
The road is already separated by bollards and is separated with a solid concrete barrier just a couple of hundred metres down the road.
Even if you wanted to pull in to a do a u turn through the bollards, theres little to no hardshoulder so you'd be stopping on a sliproad to a motorway with traffic coming at you at 100kmh (+++) !!

All those signs have been changed since.
There are lots of warnings now.
There was always a motorway rules sign before you even enter the N10 at the Kilkenny ring road.

Aard

So why isn't it called the 'M' 10 then?

EDIT: Oh wait, it's single carriageway right?

etchyed

Aard wrote: »

EDIT: Oh wait, it's single carriageway right?

Yes, but motorways can be single carriageway. But maybe they're afraid that this will confuse people.

Aard

It should be coloured blue on a map so just to avoid any confusion for people thinking they might be able to come off the R712 or a local road.

Zoney

Yep, technically speaking that part of the N10 should be clearly designated as motorway, whether M10 (we don't have a mechanism for "N10(M)") or an M9 spur (signed M9) or possibly you could get away with signing "(M9)" as long as the chopsticks signs were present at the *start* of the spur with this.

I'd also say M2 counts as a pathetic motorway (not exactly serving a main destination and although other routes don't meet the M50, the M2's case is particularly pathetic).

I'd even class the M3 as a pathetic motorway despite (or because of?) its length, again because its end destination is the urban conglomeration of... Kells.

Frank Black

etchyed wrote: »

Yes, but motorways can be single carriageway. But maybe they're afraid that this will confuse people.

Not in Ireland, they can't - unless you're refering to the exit/entry ramps which up to a point are still designated as a part of the motorway.
The Design Manual for Roads and Bridges - TD27 give allowable cross-section for the various road types.

veryangryman

etchyed wrote: »

Yes, but motorways can be single carriageway. But maybe they're afraid that this will confuse people.

Nope. Motorways have to have a dividing barrier. They can be single-LANE on both sides.

Motorway: Limited access dual carriageway road not crossed on the same level by other traffic lanes, for the exclusive use of certain classes of motor vehicles.

A Motorway must be a Dual Carriageway but can have any number of lanes. Note that it doesnt become "triple carriageway" with a third lane also. I automatically stop voting for political parties whose members use such gombeen terms.

munchkin_utd

veryangryman wrote: »

Nope. Motorways have to have a dividing barrier. They can be single-LANE on both sides.

Motorway: Limited access dual carriageway road not crossed on the same level by other traffic lanes, for the exclusive use of certain classes of motor vehicles.

A Motorway must be a Dual Carriageway but can have any number of lanes. Note that it doesnt become "triple carriageway" with a third lane also. I automatically stop voting for political parties whose members use such gombeen terms.

this is why in other countries theres a middle ground, not a normal road where pedestrians and whatnot can dander about amidst the traffic, but still not motorway either.

The english term seems to be Limited Access Road, maybe even expressway and in other languages various forms of the term "Motorised traffic road" to signify a grade separated road that ISN'T a motorway.

The sign in dozens of countries is a variation of this one used in Germany:

When you see it you know that its not a motorway BUT is restricted to the classes of vehicles that can use a motorway.
Roads like this (just like the N10) often lead unescapibly to a motorway.

Unfortunately Ireland, even in the new classifications, doesnt have such a category/ sign.

Aard

A way around it, so that you'd be able to colour it blue on a map and also legally call it a motorway, is to consider it a really long slip road to the N10 at the Kilkenny ringroad. There's a precedent in the trumpet on the M20 south of Limerick; granted the M9/N10 thing would be far longer, but essentially it's the same setup. And then at that stage, you could pretty much detrunk the N10 entirely (I bet the NRA would love to get some maintenance off their books!).

Zoney

Yes, Aard, I would agree that that would be the most sensible option, especially with the M20 precedent.

JayeL

(predictable defence of the M2 from Ashbourne local)

The M2 makes sense really, Ashbourne is a very Dublin-orientated place and the traffic on the motorway in the morning is something else. It used to take 30 minutes to reach the M50 in the morning, now it's 7 minutes. The N2 was also very dangerous along its old route.

It was to have been the start of a dual-carriageway route that would go up to Slane and bypass it, but that's not going to happen any time soon!

Chris_5339762

veryangryman wrote: »

Nope. Motorways have to have a dividing barrier. They can be single-LANE on both sides.

Nope

http://pathetic.org.uk/secretive/walton_summit_motorway/

Aard

JayeL wrote: »

(predictable defence of the M2 from Ashbourne local)

The M2 makes sense really, Ashbourne is a very Dublin-orientated place and the traffic on the motorway in the morning is something else. It used to take 30 minutes to reach the M50 in the morning, now it's 7 minutes. The N2 was also very dangerous along its old route.

It was to have been the start of a dual-carriageway route that would go up to Slane and bypass it, but that's not going to happen any time soon!

The problem with the M2 was not that it was built when not needed, per se. It's that:
a) The M3 could have been sent between the old N3 and N2, close enough to Ratoath. This would have avoided the unnecessary doubling.
b) The populations of Ashbourne and Ratoath were allowed to explode, without having had the proper infrastructure in place. It was an afterthought. This is a consequence of poor planning allowing so many new housing estates to be built. Between them, for the last inter-censal period, the population increased by 5,620 -- an increase of over 55%. More normal would have been 10% or less. Those houses would have been better off built in places near a railway station, or at the very least near an existing motorway.

The building of the motorway was entirely avoidable, and a prime example of wasteful spending.

JayeL

I'd argue the M2 has made Ashbourne and Ratoath more sustainable. I get to and from work in less time than colleagues inside the M50 - a single motorway up through Meath would undoubtedly be tolled and therefore avoided, clogging up the old roads ad getting us back to square one. Plus there was never any chance of a rail line coming near us!

Aard

If they were never over-built, there'd be nothing to 'sustain'.

JayeL

Having grown up here, it's nice to finally have the population to sustain a good number of businesses instead of having to go to Blanchardstown for everything!

Aard

Be that as it may, it's still unrelated to the provision of infrastructure. A shared M3 would have done the same trick, and such a population increase was unwarranted, misplaced, and irresponsible. At any rate, in a previous post of yours you say that Ashbourne is very Dublin-centric (i.e. the motorway is needed to get in and out), and now you're saying that the population increase has allowed home-grown businesses to be sustained (i.e. it's not really so Dublin-centric after all). Seems a bit of have your cake and eat it too.

Tech3

I would have to say the M20 is a pathetic motorway in that it only runs for about 10km.

Aard

M20 is also pathetic in the sense that if you want to stay on the N20, you have to take the exit; staying on the carriageway leads you to the N21.

Zoney

The M20 though performs its role as an approach motorway to Limerick brilliantly, whether access to Dell, Dooradoyle, Castletroy via N7 or city centre/Caherdavin via N18, as well as access onto it from Roxboro. If it only still retained access into Roxboro it would be perfect.

Traffic mostly flows perfectly (admittedly *since* access to Roxboro was closed) with only the Dooradoyle junction sometimes requiring one or two mins queuing onto the roundabouts if the shopping centre is busy.

The Raheen junction is a trumpet interchange, while the N20/N21 junction is a modified one (addition of access onto R526).

If the M20 is ever continued and economic activity takes off again, and the N21 is dualled (Adare bypass) it is possible the wide median may be needed in future for a third lane.

As for the N20 "Turn Off To Stay On" (TOTSO), from a traffic perspective this makes sense as Adare has at times dual-carriageway traffic levels (>20K) whereas the N20 has <10K to Mallow. When the M20 is continued, there should be a proper motorway/motorway interchange (even if N21 Adare Bypass is still just DC) rather than the idiotic grade-separated roundabout being contemplated. The N21 traffic levels are too high to have something like that.

Finally landscaping on the route is also first class. I would go as far as to say that though short, the M20 is a model motorway showing off best practice for a number of features.

PseudoFamous

Aard wrote: »

M20 is also pathetic in the sense that if you want to stay on the N20, you have to take the exit; staying on the carriageway leads you to the N21.

Under that logic, the M11 is pathetic, as if you want to stay on it, you must exit, as staying on the carriageway leads you to the M50. As is the M1, as you end up in the Port Tunnel (Which, I believe, is part of the M50) unless you take the slip.

L1011

Zoney wrote: »

When the M20 is continued, there should be a proper motorway/motorway interchange (even if N21 Adare Bypass is still just DC) rather than the idiotic grade-separated roundabout being contemplated. The N21 traffic levels are too high to have something like that.
.

The plan isn't even for the Adare BP to leave from there, but from further south on the M20...

SeanW

I would definitely say the Dublin-bound N10 qualifies as a Pathetic Motorway, as clearly it's a Motorway for about 100-200 Metres just off the M9 and the rest of leads inescapably to the M9.
They went to all the trouble of building that trumpet-junction so it would have made sense to have an explicit M10 going on towards Kilkenny.

I would also add the Navan South (Kennastown) dual carriageway - when the M3 was first commissioned OSM clearly showed (and still does) a short section of motorway leading inescapably to the M3 ... I took that road a few months ago and was utterly flabbergasted to find what was CLEARLY a motorway standard road, leading inescapably leading to a motorway, having a 100kph speed limit, no motorway warning (until you got to the M3) and a dashed yellow line hard shoulder :eek:

For Pete's sake, how on Earth did any of these irregularities get off the drawing board?

BigMoose

PseudoFamous wrote: »

Under that logic, the M11 is pathetic.

Under the logic of the M20 being pathetic due to being 10Km in length the M11 is doubly pathetic then as the bit round Rathnew is far shorter than that! At least until they bother to build the gap to Arklow and remove the bus stops further north and reclassify that... this section remains pathetically isolated!

Amtmann

From an alignment point of view, I think the M8 Glanmire Bypass is quite poor. Now, don't get me wrong. I love its sinuousness, surfacing, and landscaping. It's VERY FAR from "pathetic". But it's a little blind, has a number of curved ascents and descents, a very abrupt junction for Glanmire, and it terminates at Dunkettle. For these reasons, I think it's probably the "worst" Irish section of Irish motorway - the worst of a great lot, so to speak.

L1011

The Glanmire BP has probably the only truely appropriate use of a 100km/h limit on an Irish motorway though, to give it a bit of roadgeek cachet...

Carawaystick

MYOB wrote: »

The Glanmire BP has probably the only truely appropriate use of a 100km/h limit on an Irish motorway though, to give it a bit of roadgeek cachet...

I just can't see this. I drove down to Cork last weekend and on the way was looking at the huge white striped sections of the Fermoy bypass for "visibility" but the vertical alognment alloed cars vanish in less than the horizontal clearance.

After this I paid attention to the Glanmire bypass, I can't see any bend needing a modern car to drive at only 100kmh to be safe. Considering some of the N20 or N71 or even the N25 in Douglas with 100 limits, the M8 is vastly better.


Also, the N32 from the rab at the hilton to the M1/M50 rab is not motorway as you can u-turn and come back the N32 eastwards.

L1011

Carawaystick wrote: »

After this I paid attention to the Glanmire bypass, I can't see any bend needing a modern car to drive at only 100kmh to be safe. Considering some of the N20 or N71 or even the N25 in Douglas with 100 limits, the M8 is vastly better.

There's a few of the corners there which are perfectly fine at 120 or so if you commit to it but not safe at all if you lift off.

Compared to the other 100km/h bits of motorway - perfectly fine D3's where the NRA are just being scared - its the only bit with justification.

Chris_5339762

Granted, I drive a Toyota Yaris, but I wouldnt trust it to take the bends on the Glanmire bypass at 120.

If Athlone ever got redesignated, it certainly wouldnt be safe at 120.

Amtmann

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Granted, I drive a Toyota Yaris, but I wouldnt trust it to take the bends on the Glanmire bypass at 120.
.

It's possible to take them at 130 or even 140, but obviously it's not recommended. The major problem are the sightlines: whether you go north or south on it, you run the risk at 120km/h of driving straight up the back of a slow-moving vehicle. I once was driving northbound, and, at the sweeping downward bend I suddenly saw a truck on its side after shedding its load of cabbages. It was something I would have plowed straight into if I had been going at 120km/h.

invinciblePRSTV

Tremelo wrote: »

From an alignment point of view, I think the M8 Glanmire Bypass is quite poor. Now, don't get me wrong. I love its sinuousness, surfacing, and landscaping. It's VERY FAR from "pathetic". But it's a little blind, has a number of curved ascents and descents, a very abrupt junction for Glanmire, and it terminates at Dunkettle. For these reasons, I think it's probably the "worst" Irish section of Irish motorway - the worst of a great lot, so to speak.

The Glanmire BP is probably my favourite part of the M8 for the very reasons you outlined as being potential negatives (and not just because it means I'm almost home to the shining city at the bottom of the hill). After the neverending straightness of the new sections of the M8 which is enough to send a man to sleep, it's nice to arrive onto the twisty, curvy up and down Glanmire BP which will jolt a driver back to life after the boring Fermoy & WGH sections. A truly refreshing drive.