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Pathetic Motorways Ireland

  • 29-06-2011 1:40pm
    #1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭


    I am a fan of the collection of crap roads and vapourware roads that one finds on Pathetic Motorways over in the UK eg

    http://pathetic.org.uk/features/mighthavebeen/regions/scotland/

    I mailed the lads to see if they will host an Ireland section :) Lets see what happens.

    Get them tractor pics ready lads :D


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 17,398 ✭✭✭✭r3nu4l


    Well they have the N32 listed as the M32 on the 'secretive' motorways section so that's a start :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    The N32 isn't really a motorway, because it doesn't lead inescapably to the M1 / M50.

    However the "Airport Motorway" is designated as mway it'd seem, yet it too is escapable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Aard wrote: »
    The N32 isn't really a motorway, because it doesn't lead inescapably to the M1 / M50.

    However the "Airport Motorway" is designated as mway it'd seem, yet it too is escapable.

    I assume you mean that you can escape it by going around the roundabout and heading back to airport? Just recall that when it was built there was no roundabout as all the traffic on the "short M1" went along the "Airport Motorway" to join the N1. Obviously they never updated the leglisation to reflect this -- same reason the stub is still part of the M1 no doubt


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 66,442 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    ...and we have a number of actual inescapable spurs of significant length (nearly all in Meath!) which aren't designated motorway or signed inescapable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Speaking of spurs, the N10 springs to mind.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 739 ✭✭✭Jayuu


    Aard wrote: »
    The N32 isn't really a motorway, because it doesn't lead inescapably to the M1 / M50.

    Part of it does.

    Once you cross the roundabout at Bewleys Hotel heading west you inevitably end up on a motorway because the old M1/M50 roundabout is still part of the M50 motorway.

    In fact the NRA map actually shows it as motorway although it doesn't give it a designation (only using the N32 from the Bewleys roundabout on). On OpenStreetMap somebody has incorrectly designated the old roundabout as part of the N32 but this is flatly contradicted by this map. It would be great if somebody could correct that, if they have access to updating on OpenStreetMap.

    NRA M50 Junction Map


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    The OSM guys are pretty thorough in their labelling of roads; if it's now green (i.e. N) it might have something to do with the freeflowing of the M50/M1 junction. Maybe the roundabout was downgraded at the same time.

    Does anybody know where the last word is on this? Is it in some code with the Dept of Transport?


  • Registered Users Posts: 739 ✭✭✭Jayuu


    Aard wrote: »
    The OSM guys are pretty thorough in their labelling of roads; if it's now green (i.e. N) it might have something to do with the freeflowing of the M50/M1 junction. Maybe the roundabout was downgraded at the same time.

    Does anybody know where the last word is on this? Is it in some code with the Dept of Transport?

    Given that the NRA map was produced at the time of the upgrade one would have thought that they knew what they were doing. It has all the correct designation at the other junctions. Personally I think this was somebody on OSM assuming that the roundabout was being downgraded.


  • Registered Users Posts: 412 ✭✭IrlJidel


    Jayuu wrote: »
    Given that the NRA map was produced at the time of the upgrade one would have thought that they knew what they were doing. It has all the correct designation at the other junctions. Personally I think this was somebody on OSM assuming that the roundabout was being downgraded.

    You can see the history of the edits here:

    http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/30719518/history

    version 6 states "Removed motorway status from stub from former M32. Signing is still confusing, but all indications are that motorway status was removed with the new junction layout. These roads do not lead inescapably to a motorway"


    If the junction is a motorway then the stretch between the roundabout at Woodlands would also have to be motorway. http://osm.org/go/es@XHJ6d

    We can't use NRA published maps - can anyone verify that there is signage to indicate that the motorway starts at Woodlands?


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,835 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    I am a fan of the collection of crap roads and vapourware roads that one finds on Pathetic Motorways over in the UK eg

    http://pathetic.org.uk/features/mighthavebeen/regions/scotland/

    I mailed the lads to see if they will host an Ireland section :) Lets see what happens.

    Get them tractor pics ready lads :D

    But all of our motorways are excellent imo.

    If I was to pick, it'd probably be the M2 simply because it doesn't really go anywhere (waiting for a local from Ashbourne to come along and jump down my throat :) ).


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  • Registered Users Posts: 674 ✭✭✭etchyed


    Yeah, apart from the N/M32, there isn't really anything in Ireland that would fit onto that website. Britain has a long history of motorway building, unfinished plans and downgrades of bits of road leading to all the anomalies and short stretches of motorway over there.

    Ireland's motorway network is newer, and all of the motorway construction of the last 10 years was pretty straightforward. I think Stark's right in saying that the shortest isolated stretch of motorway is the M2, and even it make sense, as it's at the "Dublin end" of a national primary.

    The inclusion of the N32 on that website demonstrates that the creator is quite happy to include Irish examples. It's just that there aren't any.

    EDIT: Directly contradicting myself here, but I've just realised the N10 would be a good candidate for secretive.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,784 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    Aard wrote: »
    Speaking of spurs, the N10 springs to mind.
    Indeed.

    Is it signed as banned to pedestrians etc at the rounabout opon entering the Kilkenny spur heading for the motorway?

    Pathetic it definitely is - seeing as here on google maps you can see the sign to warn that this road inevitably drags you onto the motorway BUT its too late already!!!
    The road is already separated by bollards and is separated with a solid concrete barrier just a couple of hundred metres down the road.
    Even if you wanted to pull in to a do a u turn through the bollards, theres little to no hardshoulder so you'd be stopping on a sliproad to a motorway with traffic coming at you at 100kmh (+++) !!


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,102 ✭✭✭hi5


    Indeed.

    Is it signed as banned to pedestrians etc at the rounabout opon entering the Kilkenny spur heading for the motorway?

    Pathetic it definitely is - seeing as here on google maps you can see the sign to warn that this road inevitably drags you onto the motorway BUT its too late already!!!
    The road is already separated by bollards and is separated with a solid concrete barrier just a couple of hundred metres down the road.
    Even if you wanted to pull in to a do a u turn through the bollards, theres little to no hardshoulder so you'd be stopping on a sliproad to a motorway with traffic coming at you at 100kmh (+++) !!


    All those signs have been changed since.
    There are lots of warnings now.
    There was always a motorway rules sign before you even enter the N10 at the Kilkenny ring road.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    So why isn't it called the 'M' 10 then?

    EDIT: Oh wait, it's single carriageway right?


  • Registered Users Posts: 674 ✭✭✭etchyed


    Aard wrote: »
    EDIT: Oh wait, it's single carriageway right?
    Yes, but motorways can be single carriageway. But maybe they're afraid that this will confuse people.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    It should be coloured blue on a map so just to avoid any confusion for people thinking they might be able to come off the R712 or a local road.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney


    Yep, technically speaking that part of the N10 should be clearly designated as motorway, whether M10 (we don't have a mechanism for "N10(M)") or an M9 spur (signed M9) or possibly you could get away with signing "(M9)" as long as the chopsticks signs were present at the *start* of the spur with this.

    I'd also say M2 counts as a pathetic motorway (not exactly serving a main destination and although other routes don't meet the M50, the M2's case is particularly pathetic).

    I'd even class the M3 as a pathetic motorway despite (or because of?) its length, again because its end destination is the urban conglomeration of... Kells.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,297 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    etchyed wrote: »
    Yes, but motorways can be single carriageway. But maybe they're afraid that this will confuse people.


    Not in Ireland, they can't - unless you're refering to the exit/entry ramps which up to a point are still designated as a part of the motorway.
    The Design Manual for Roads and Bridges - TD27 give allowable cross-section for the various road types.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,503 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    etchyed wrote: »
    Yes, but motorways can be single carriageway. But maybe they're afraid that this will confuse people.

    Nope. Motorways have to have a dividing barrier. They can be single-LANE on both sides.

    Motorway: Limited access dual carriageway road not crossed on the same level by other traffic lanes, for the exclusive use of certain classes of motor vehicles.

    A Motorway must be a Dual Carriageway but can have any number of lanes. Note that it doesnt become "triple carriageway" with a third lane also. I automatically stop voting for political parties whose members use such gombeen terms.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,784 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    Nope. Motorways have to have a dividing barrier. They can be single-LANE on both sides.

    Motorway: Limited access dual carriageway road not crossed on the same level by other traffic lanes, for the exclusive use of certain classes of motor vehicles.

    A Motorway must be a Dual Carriageway but can have any number of lanes. Note that it doesnt become "triple carriageway" with a third lane also. I automatically stop voting for political parties whose members use such gombeen terms.
    this is why in other countries theres a middle ground, not a normal road where pedestrians and whatnot can dander about amidst the traffic, but still not motorway either.

    The english term seems to be Limited Access Road, maybe even expressway and in other languages various forms of the term "Motorised traffic road" to signify a grade separated road that ISN'T a motorway.

    The sign in dozens of countries is a variation of this one used in Germany:
    200px-Zeichen_331.svg.png
    When you see it you know that its not a motorway BUT is restricted to the classes of vehicles that can use a motorway.
    Roads like this (just like the N10) often lead unescapibly to a motorway.

    Unfortunately Ireland, even in the new classifications, doesnt have such a category/ sign.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    A way around it, so that you'd be able to colour it blue on a map and also legally call it a motorway, is to consider it a really long slip road to the N10 at the Kilkenny ringroad. There's a precedent in the trumpet on the M20 south of Limerick; granted the M9/N10 thing would be far longer, but essentially it's the same setup. And then at that stage, you could pretty much detrunk the N10 entirely (I bet the NRA would love to get some maintenance off their books!).


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney


    Yes, Aard, I would agree that that would be the most sensible option, especially with the M20 precedent.


  • Registered Users Posts: 385 ✭✭JayeL


    (predictable defence of the M2 from Ashbourne local)

    The M2 makes sense really, Ashbourne is a very Dublin-orientated place and the traffic on the motorway in the morning is something else. It used to take 30 minutes to reach the M50 in the morning, now it's 7 minutes. The N2 was also very dangerous along its old route.

    It was to have been the start of a dual-carriageway route that would go up to Slane and bypass it, but that's not going to happen any time soon!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,783 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Nope. Motorways have to have a dividing barrier. They can be single-LANE on both sides.

    Nope :D

    http://pathetic.org.uk/secretive/walton_summit_motorway/


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    JayeL wrote: »
    (predictable defence of the M2 from Ashbourne local)

    The M2 makes sense really, Ashbourne is a very Dublin-orientated place and the traffic on the motorway in the morning is something else. It used to take 30 minutes to reach the M50 in the morning, now it's 7 minutes. The N2 was also very dangerous along its old route.

    It was to have been the start of a dual-carriageway route that would go up to Slane and bypass it, but that's not going to happen any time soon!

    The problem with the M2 was not that it was built when not needed, per se. It's that:
    a) The M3 could have been sent between the old N3 and N2, close enough to Ratoath. This would have avoided the unnecessary doubling.
    b) The populations of Ashbourne and Ratoath were allowed to explode, without having had the proper infrastructure in place. It was an afterthought. This is a consequence of poor planning allowing so many new housing estates to be built. Between them, for the last inter-censal period, the population increased by 5,620 -- an increase of over 55%. More normal would have been 10% or less. Those houses would have been better off built in places near a railway station, or at the very least near an existing motorway.

    The building of the motorway was entirely avoidable, and a prime example of wasteful spending.


  • Registered Users Posts: 385 ✭✭JayeL


    I'd argue the M2 has made Ashbourne and Ratoath more sustainable. I get to and from work in less time than colleagues inside the M50 - a single motorway up through Meath would undoubtedly be tolled and therefore avoided, clogging up the old roads ad getting us back to square one. Plus there was never any chance of a rail line coming near us!


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    If they were never over-built, there'd be nothing to 'sustain'.


  • Registered Users Posts: 385 ✭✭JayeL


    Having grown up here, it's nice to finally have the population to sustain a good number of businesses instead of having to go to Blanchardstown for everything!


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Be that as it may, it's still unrelated to the provision of infrastructure. A shared M3 would have done the same trick, and such a population increase was unwarranted, misplaced, and irresponsible. At any rate, in a previous post of yours you say that Ashbourne is very Dublin-centric (i.e. the motorway is needed to get in and out), and now you're saying that the population increase has allowed home-grown businesses to be sustained (i.e. it's not really so Dublin-centric after all). Seems a bit of have your cake and eat it too.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    I would have to say the M20 is a pathetic motorway in that it only runs for about 10km.


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