is a phd hard to do?

LegacyUser

I know this seems minor but I can't sleep thinkin about it so decided to post here...

Short background is that I just finished my undergraduate degree few weeks ago and off the back of this I got formally offered a phd there a couple of weeks ago but had been informally offered it long before (like got the formal offer letter a couple of weeks ago if you get me). It's a very interesting topic and in an area kinda like what I did for my undergrad thesis but im really starting to freak out. I have had a while to think about whether I wanted to do this (cos of informal offer months ago) so I know I do actually want to do the project but im kinda scared about actually doing it. I think the all of a sudden it being definately what im going to do made it hit home that I actually have to do it. Where do people even start with a phd? I have no clue how to do a phd and the level of the work all just seems SO high and really difficult, I mean I'm only just out of my undergraduate degree.

Would love to hear from people who have done phds to hear about how it is starting out in one. I know of plenty of people who went from undergraduate to phd student without doing a masters so I know it can be done. I don't doubt that I'm smart enough or anything, I just suddenly am feeling like I'm going to be way out of my depth and very overwhelmed without a clue what to do...

Bloody Nipples

If you got offered one straight off the bat in this economic climate, I'd have no doubt that you are very capable of doing a PhD. Only the very very best are getting funded PhDs nowadays so congrats on that. If you can even get a PhD, I'd be in no doubt that you're well capable.

The money is a bit crap though, so you have to decide if you're willing to put up with that for four years.

Wompa1

phdworries wrote: »

I know this seems minor but I can't sleep thinkin about it so decided to post here...

Short background is that I just finished my undergraduate degree few weeks ago and off the back of this I got formally offered a phd there a couple of weeks ago but had been informally offered it long before (like got the formal offer letter a couple of weeks ago if you get me). It's a very interesting topic and in an area kinda like what I did for my undergrad thesis but im really starting to freak out. I have had a while to think about whether I wanted to do this (cos of informal offer months ago) so I know I do actually want to do the project but im kinda scared about actually doing it. I think the all of a sudden it being definately what im going to do made it hit home that I actually have to do it. Where do people even start with a phd? I have no clue how to do a phd and the level of the work all just seems SO high and really difficult, I mean I'm only just out of my undergraduate degree.

Would love to hear from people who have done phds to hear about how it is starting out in one. I know of plenty of people who went from undergraduate to phd student without doing a masters so I know it can be done. I don't doubt that I'm smart enough or anything, I just suddenly am feeling like I'm going to be way out of my depth and very overwhelmed without a clue what to do...

It's a lot easier than full time work!

petethebrick

I'm just finished the second year of my PhD. Some points I think you should consider are:

1. You should only do a PhD if it's in a subject area which you are passionate about and think you will remain passionate about for the next 3/4 years

2. A lot depends on what you envisage your future career being. If you think you definitely want to work in academia and lecture/research within a university environment then yes you will need a PhD. Remember that a lot of jobs which you may be considering will not require a PhD and time spent completing one would be better spent perhaps doing a specific Masters degree and then entering the job directly and completing in house training. A lot depends on the field. In the sciences for example PhDs are more often requisite while in the social sciences they are less so.

3. Remember that a PhD is not a guarantee of a job. The majority of PhD candidates at my university are worried about finding work after completion.

4. By the sounds of it I wouldn't worry about a PhD being too difficult for you. What I would consider would be the possibility of burnout from going to straight into a PhD from undergraduate level. Would you be able to defer the PhD for a year? You could spend the year travelling, working and saving, and giving greater consideration to your options. Even if your current university won't allow you to defer I'm sure you could obtain a funded PhD position at another institution in the future.

5. While money is tight doing funded PhD its not as bad as is sometimes made out. You will be able to live comfortably enough.


Send me a PM if you need any other info

petethebrick

Wompa1 wrote: »

It's a lot easier than full time work!

This is nonsense. The majority of PhD students in my department work 50 hour weeks on average.

Wompa1

petethebrick wrote: »

This is nonsense. The majority of PhD students in my department work 50 hour weeks on average.

Okie doke, you are entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. I know quite a few PhD students myself. I know a couple who work very hard and quite a few more who don't.

The difference between work and a PhD is, at work you have a boss to answer to. You have strict deadlines which come with penalties. If you are sent abroad for work your expenses are tightly restricted and you risk your job if you go out drinking and show up hungover or don't show up the next day. People you present to are customers or potential customers and so there's more pressure than just presenting for an hour in a conference that features 50 other speakers. You need to ask permission for days off, you are limited on sick days. You can't pull any working from home BS etc. etc. etc.

Also just for the OPS info. An Irish PhD may not be all that prestigous in the coming years as the quality of graduates are slipping as more and more people opt to go for them due to the economic climate rather than a passion of the subject. That's not just from myself but from letters in the editors section of the Galway Advertiser from the ex President of NUIG. Good Luck making up your mind

LegacyUser

Hi,
I had to reply to this as I'm coming to the end of a PhD after having quite a hard time of it. I'm not going to try put you off, but I would like to offer some perspective that I wish I'd had several years ago!

First of all, +1 to everything petethebrick said, all good and true points. It's not a minor issue either, it is a big decision for you to make.

From my point of view, the hardest part of doing a PhD was not the academic knowledge required, nor the hours which had to be put in. The most difficult part, for which I was not prepared at all, was the challenge of managing a 4 year project. This is one element that your supervisor should help you with, at least in the beginning, but unfortunately this does not always happen as it should.

It would be a good idea to have a further meeting with your supervisor, and ask for specific information on the plan for how the project will go. He/she should be able to give you a very clear picture of what the first steps will be, and what you should aim to have achieved after say, the first year of the project. You should also find out exactly who will be available to give you help and advice. In time you will of course take the project into your own hands, this is what it's all about. But at the beginning you will need direction. Don't be intimidated or afraid of asking these questions - it will show that you are interested and serious about succeeding. If you can't get specific information, and answers to some of the questions you have, or if the whole thing sounds a bit vague, that is not a very good sign for the future of the project.

As others have said, no doubt you are well capable of it if you have been offered this position. But having a clear plan and good support at the initial stages can make the difference between a tough but rewarding time, or several years of frustration.

Best of luck whatever you decide to do!

nyarlothothep

Wompa1 wrote: »

Okie doke, you are entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. I know quite a few PhD students myself. I know a couple who work very hard and quite a few more who don't.

The difference between work and a PhD is, at work you have a boss to answer to. You have strict deadlines which come with penalties. If you are sent abroad for work your expenses are tightly restricted and you risk your job if you go out drinking and show up hungover or don't show up the next day. People you present to are customers or potential customers and so there's more pressure than just presenting for an hour in a conference that features 50 other speakers. You need to ask permission for days off, you are limited on sick days. You can't pull any working from home BS etc. etc. etc.

Also just for the OPS info. An Irish PhD may not be all that prestigous in the coming years as the quality of graduates are slipping as more and more people opt to go for them due to the economic climate rather than a passion of the subject. That's not just from myself but from letters in the editors section of the Galway Advertiser from the ex President of NUIG. Good Luck making up your mind

No, this is a logic fail. You're using one conventional definition of work to define all work. While some people don't do any work for their PhD, just as some people don't do any work in a conventional job, , the person who works hard at their PhD is working just as hard as someone in a conventional job, but the type of work is different. This doesn't make it any less hard just because it doesn't possess the characteristics of your job or your idea of what a job should entail. Essentially you're trying to impose one definition of work on all other forms of occuption and it falls apart because it only reflects your perception of reality rather than reality which is complex and differentiated. Essentially you got it right at the start of your post, its just your opinion, just don't expect anyone to take it seriously when it displays gaping holes in its rationales.

As for the OP, people will spout their opinions and you can either be led by them or what you can do is ask yourself do see yourself as being happy or at least satisfied doing this and what do you want to get out of it in the future. Know thyself and all that, no one is going to find that out for you.

neuro-praxis

Research is hard, but it is hard in a very different way to a full time office job, and how demanding it is very much depends on your subject. Personally I think research is an easier life (having done it) than working full time (doing that right now), but it is much harder existentially, as the quality of your work is much more difficult to measure and sometimes it is impossible to see your progress. Generally though you can take holidays and sick time as you please (unless you are doing scientific research that is time-dependent), so it is very humane. It is also lonely though, unless you're on a team.

OP, go for it. Get a good supervisor and get your head down. You will probably love it.

1995sarah

No it aint

Wompa1

nyarlothothep wrote: »

No, this is a logic fail. You're using one conventional definition of work to define all work. While some people don't do any work for their PhD, just as some people don't do any work in a conventional job, , the person who works hard at their PhD is working just as hard as someone in a conventional job, but the type of work is different. This doesn't make it any less hard just because it doesn't possess the characteristics of your job or your idea of what a job should entail. Essentially you're trying to impose one definition of work on all other forms of occuption and it falls apart because it only reflects your perception of reality rather than reality which is complex and differentiated. Essentially you got it right at the start of your post, its just your opinion, just don't expect anyone to take it seriously when it displays gaping holes in its rationales.

As for the OP, people will spout their opinions and you can either be led by them or what you can do is ask yourself do see yourself as being happy or at least satisfied doing this and what do you want to get out of it in the future. Know thyself and all that, no one is going to find that out for you.

How is it a logic fail? When doing a PhD do you have a boss? Nope, you have a supervisor you can turn to if you want guidance...not the same

Do you run the risk of being fired? No you could have your funding pulled but I have yet to hear that being done..most likely because in my experience state funded PhD are not performance reviewed very often and when they are it's a 10 minute session once a year.

Do you have a set lunch hour or break? Nope, feel free to go have a coffee when you are feeling stressed. Your deadline is 4 years which is more than enough to get the work done even if you just did a half days work 5 days a week.

PhD students would be protective over this but college is so much easier than work.

nyarlothothep

Wompa1 wrote: »

How is it a logic fail? When doing a PhD do you have a boss? Nope, you have a supervisor you can turn to if you want guidance...not the same

Do you run the risk of being fired? No you could have your funding pulled but I have yet to hear that being done..most likely because in my experience state funded PhD are not performance reviewed very often and when they are it's a 10 minute session once a year.

Do you have a set lunch hour or break? Nope, feel free to go have a coffee when you are feeling stressed. Your deadline is 4 years which is more than enough to get the work done even if you just did a half days work 5 days a week.

PhD students would be protective over this but college is so much easier than work.

You're just missing my point deliberately, or perhaps not, re-read my post and try to understand what I'm saying. I won't repeat myself.

Also do more research into what you're talking about rather than posting generalizing assumptions. You'll find plenty of examples of people actually complaining about their 50-60 hour workload, the intellectual demands, how they're sick of working for so long on their topic etc. Funding is hard to come by too, that point about funding sounds akin to the usual generalisations about all teachers being overpaid or all people on the dole being scroungers. Its all well and good to get worked up about it but it doesn't reflect the reality.

You also don't seem to understand the underlying purpose of a PhD. Its about making an original contribution to the sum of human knowledge, hardly something that can be achieved by simply asking your supervisor to give you a hand.

Just to mess up your argument a bit more, consider this. Someone could actually find working in a conventional office environment with all the rules and heirarchies easier than doing a PhD where self directed learning, intuitive reasoning and insight are key aspects, in the same way that an introverted physicist could find working as a salesman excruciatingly difficult whereas a saleman could find doing a PhD to be incredibly hard.

Wompa1

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Just to mess up your argument a bit more, consider this. Someone could actually find working in a conventional office environment with all the rules and heirarchies easier than doing a PhD where self directed learning, intuitive reasoning and insight are key aspects, in the same way that an introverted physicist could find working as a salesman excruciatingly difficult whereas a saleman could find doing a PhD to be incredibly hard.

Don't people doing PhDs typically work in an office or lab environment? You get enough structure in a PhD to be able to complete your work...come up with your thesis, complete and submit by such a date. You say I'm making generalizations but you seem to want to talk up PhD workloads based on what? I don't have a vested interest, I'm not doing a PhD. I went out with a girl who did one, I have 5 friends doing PhDs in different Universities and different fields of study. A PhD is as tough as you make it, if you are a hard worker, you will work hard. If not, you won't and you won't be punished, you may even still get your PhD at the end of it. People who work jobs also can work 50+ hours a week. I've spent the last 2 years working over 60 hours a week myself. I'm still working as of writing this, I started at 8am and should finish at 4:30...no big deal, you do what you gotta do, no matter what the job..

Difference being I work in 8 day deadlines and am in management so there's a focus on me to get the job done, if there's slippage it's my ass

Sarn

Petethebrick and Anon 1234124 have summed it up nicely. In addition,

phdworries wrote: »

I know of plenty of people who went from undergraduate to phd student without doing a masters so I know it can be done.

Pretty much everyone I know went straight from their undergraduate degree into their PhDs (must be close to a hundred at this stage). Only a small handful didn't complete it and then they usually opted for a MSc instead.

Another consideration if you are going to do a science based PhD, is the support structure in the lab. Are there many other PhD students, a few postdocs? When starting out it makes a big difference being able to draw on their experience. For the most part they should be glad to lend a hand (you do get exceptions though!). Failing that, if you're in close proximity to other groups you will also get some support. Everybody knows what it is like to start out, in time they'll be looking for favours off you! Make sure to surround yourself with other postgrads, it makes a big difference when you can share the highs and lows.

The flexibility of your PhD depends on your supervisor. Some will give you free reign, others want to know every little thing that you are doing. Ideally you want someone in the middle. If you get a chance, speak to other postgrads in the group beforehand. Some supervisors can be a misery to work for for several years.

nyarlothothep

Wompa1 wrote: »

Don't people doing PhDs typically work in an office or lab environment? You get enough structure in a PhD to be able to complete your work...come up with your thesis, complete and submit by such a date. You say I'm making generalizations but you seem to want to talk up PhD workloads based on what? I don't have a vested interest, I'm not doing a PhD. I went out with a girl who did one, I have 5 friends doing PhDs in different Universities and different fields of study. A PhD is as tough as you make it, if you are a hard worker, you will work hard. If not, you won't and you won't be punished, you may even still get your PhD at the end of it. People who work jobs also can work 50+ hours a week. I've spent the last 2 years working over 60 hours a week myself. I'm still working as of writing this, I started at 8am and should finish at 4:30...no big deal, you do what you gotta do, no matter what the job..

Difference being I work in 8 day deadlines and am in management so there's a focus on me to get the job done, if there's slippage it's my ass

Yes and you have to collect evidence/data, research arguments, question your own methods, interpret data, question viewpoints and make sense of all those years of hard work on one topic in order to write it up into a coherent thesis. Basically you said, PhDs don't involve as much hard work as your regular office job. I pointed out that this was a generalisation so please don't accuse of talking up the workload when I was showing that your argument is nonsense. Based on what? Well reading up on what PhDs involve and what people's experiences of them are would be a good place for you to start. You could even attempt writing up a PhD proposal and see how easy that is.

The same could be said for any job, there are lazy people in every walk of life including PhDs. As for your point about people not working in PhDs and not getting punished, well you even admitted that if you didn't produce research worthy results you could have your funding pulled, albeit followed by a lot of generalisations about this being a slap on the wrist. In any case people get away with a lot of things in life, the workplace is endemic for it.

Also it doesn't really matter how much work you do how hard you self flagellate in order to prove your worth., its what you produce that counts. I could argue that a sales job is relatively meaningless work which contributes nothing to understanding our universe, society, that it contributes nothing of artistic worth or value, that it doesn't even count as a form of social work in terms of helping others or improving societal conditions. So I could say that just because someone works hard doesn't mean that the work is valuable as a consequence of that. But I would be wrong to say that it is de facto valueless based on the fact that I see no value in the nature of the work because I would be expressing my opinion and suffice to say that's all you have doing on this thread in addition to passing it off as fact. Its a form of intellectual dishonesty and you know it. To simplify it for you, different types of work present different challenges to different people, hence applying a one size fits all definition for what makes work hard/valuable is nonsensical.

woodchuck

If it’s a project you’re interested in, then go for it! Don’t let fear of the unknown hold you back. I wouldn’t be worried whatsoever about not having a masters first, most people starting a PhD don’t have one. And nobody knows what they’re doing when they start out! That’s completely normal. Expect a lot of teething problems and aimlessness in your first few months to a year. You eventually get the hang of what it is you’re meant to be doing though. It’s a great feeling going from the one always looking for help to the one that other people come to for help!

Your supervisor should be the only other deciding factor. Have you met him/her? I completely agree with everything Sarn said. Your supervisor can be your worst enemy or best resource depending on the person. If you haven’t met them yourself yet, you could suggest meeting up to discuss the project before officially accepting? Or at least try to find out from other people what they’re like to work for first.

And I wouldn’t worry too much about the difficulty/workload to start off with… I found that in the beginning the workload was actually much less than what I was used to doing, having come straight from my undergrad degree. In my first year I basically worked 9-5 and actually had most of my evenings and weekends free! The workload piles on more as time goes on obviously, but at that stage you actually know what you’re doing and how to go about doing it.

marxcoo

Wompa1 wrote: »

PhD students would be protective over this but college is so much easier than work.

That would really depend on what your work is. "work" is a pretty general term.

LegacyUser

Thanks for all the replies, it’s very helpful. Already feeling a bit better about it!

petethebrick wrote: »

I'm just finished the second year of my PhD. Some points I think you should consider are:

1. You should only do a PhD if it's in a subject area which you are passionate about and think you will remain passionate about for the next 3/4 years

2. A lot depends on what you envisage your future career being. If you think you definitely want to work in academia and lecture/research within a university environment then yes you will need a PhD. Remember that a lot of jobs which you may be considering will not require a PhD and time spent completing one would be better spent perhaps doing a specific Masters degree and then entering the job directly and completing in house training. A lot depends on the field. In the sciences for example PhDs are more often requisite while in the social sciences they are less so.

I seem to be really fortunate in that the topic is really interesting and very useful (the project is very closely tied in with industry and will have to meet some requirements which seems to be good and bad – bit of structure but I really have to keep on top of it I think!! Scary stuff!). It’s in the science based area and I honestly think I would like to stay in academia/research so I think it is a good route for me but it’s also one that I’m fairly sure rules out ‘normal’ work. I guess I’m not really undecided about doing the PhD, more scared about what doing it entails and the big leap into the unknown.

Anon 1234124 wrote: »

Hi,
From my point of view, the hardest part of doing a PhD was not the academic knowledge required, nor the hours which had to be put in. The most difficult part, for which I was not prepared at all, was the challenge of managing a 4 year project. This is one element that your supervisor should help you with, at least in the beginning, but unfortunately this does not always happen as it should.

This is one of the things that has me worried, things all went a bit to mush and got a bit frantic at the end of my undergraduate thesis and I’d only spent 6 months working on it! The potential of what could happen after 3 years makes my mind boggle :-S I’m fairly sure I could redo my thesis very well having learnt my lessons from my actual attempt but the scale of a PhD just seems soooooo much bigger.

Anon 1234124 wrote: »

It would be a good idea to have a further meeting with your supervisor, and ask for specific information on the plan for how the project will go. He/she should be able to give you a very clear picture of what the first steps will be, and what you should aim to have achieved after say, the first year of the project. You should also find out exactly who will be available to give you help and advice. In time you will of course take the project into your own hands, this is what it's all about. But at the beginning you will need direction. Don't be intimidated or afraid of asking these questions - it will show that you are interested and serious about succeeding. If you can't get specific information, and answers to some of the questions you have, or if the whole thing sounds a bit vague, that is not a very good sign for the future of the project.

I’ve met the supervisor a few times now as well as a couple of past students. He seems to be fairly up there in the area and was very clear about the expectations he has for the project – I just have no idea how I’m supposed to go about achieving these expectations. Like, on day 1 do I sit there with loads of other students around me who are all working away merrily and I’m siting there twiddling my thumbs?? The prospect of actually starting is very daunting to me :-/ The whole thing got very real on me all of a sudden, before now it was kinda pie in the sky and ah yea sure, that’ll be grand!!

Sarn wrote: »

Another consideration if you are going to do a science based PhD, is the support structure in the lab. Are there many other PhD students, a few postdocs? When starting out it makes a big difference being able to draw on their experience. For the most part they should be glad to lend a hand (you do get exceptions though!). Failing that, if you're in close proximity to other groups you will also get some support. Everybody knows what it is like to start out, in time they'll be looking for favours off you! Make sure to surround yourself with other postgrads, it makes a big difference when you can share the highs and lows.

The labs seem great and there are loads of other students in the department! (Yay! Social life hasn’t been ruled out totally!)

woodchuck wrote: »

If it’s a project you’re interested in, then go for it! Don’t let fear of the unknown hold you back. I wouldn’t be worried whatsoever about not having a masters first, most people starting a PhD don’t have one. And nobody knows what they’re doing when they start out! That’s completely normal. Expect a lot of teething problems and aimlessness in your first few months to a year. You eventually get the hang of what it is you’re meant to be doing though. It’s a great feeling going from the one always looking for help to the one that other people come to for help!

…

And I wouldn’t worry too much about the difficulty/workload to start off with… I found that in the beginning the workload was actually much less than what I was used to doing, having come straight from my undergrad degree. In my first year I basically worked 9-5 and actually had most of my evenings and weekends free! The workload piles on more as time goes on obviously, but at that stage you actually know what you’re doing and how to go about doing it.

It seems a bit like I’ve been on a gentle but steep in places learning curve in college up til now and as if I’m about to be faced with the Mount Everest of learning curves when I start out with the PhD. I don’t want to be that person that people are avoiding cos I keep asking questions and seeming a bit lost, feels like everyone else I know who is doing a PhD actually knew how to go about it before they started, much more than I do (or they’re great actors!) or were just very good at winging it! So it’s good to know that nobody really knows what they’re doing at the start!

The workload thing has me a bit worried though as there is a time limit on my funding (3 years) so I dunno if I’m just getting myself in a state or what but it feels like I really have to hit the ground running in order to get finished. Maybe I’m psyching myself out over nothing but I just always thought PhDs were 4 year affairs and then to be told I have to finish in 3 I’m like !!!!!

Thanks for all the replies, has helped me to get my thoughts on the whole thing straightened out a bit.

woodchuck

I wouldn’t worry too much about getting it done in 3 vs 4 years, a lot of people do it (including me!). There are some people who manage to hit the ground running, but that’s just usually just due to the nature of their specific project (and you’d be surprised how many of them have to completely change their direction when their results don’t support their original hypothesis!). You obviously don’t want to just doss in the beginning, but don’t be worried if you’re not getting results right away. I don’t think I got any usable results for at least my first 6 months! And it took me almost a year to have a ‘breakthrough’. So long as you’re using your time to become familiar with your topic and planning/attempting/troubleshooting experiments then it’s not a waste of time.

See if there’s anyone who doesn’t mind you shadowing them for a day here or there to see how particular techniques are done. People generally won’t mind so long as they’re not swamped under with stuff. And questions are fine too (so long as they’re not the exact same ones over and over again! Take notes.). Doing a lot of reading on your topic and ideally writing a literature review is a good idea too if you have the time. And learn how to use endnote early on for references if you haven’t already used it.

It would also be worthwhile looking into any courses/conferences/workshops etc that would useful for you attend. For example the DMMC do a lot of workshops throughout the year if you’re based in or can travel to Dublin (usually free and run for a day or two). It might give you some inspiration or if not it’s at least something to put down on your CV. Better to do it when you’re starting off and have the time than trying to find the time later on!