Trailer Fishtail Crash

Cmar-Ireland

Nasty crash video of an estate car towing a 3series coupe (I think) on a flatbed trailer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgM1uKVkQLE

johnos1984

Idiot

squod

Made on a mobile phone.

TrailerBob

Ouch... Hope they were ok...thats why trailer speed limits are there,

plus imo you shouldn't pull a large car like that on a trailer with another car regardless. doubt its legal if weights were checked and its just not safe.

Cmar-Ireland

Doesn't look like the tow car flipped over, so they should be okay. Definitely not a safe load anyway.
Happened in Poland if the comments on utube are to be believed.

CJhaughey

It can be caused by harmonics with a long trailer.
I saw this happen before and one way of getting out of it is to accelerate out of it, kind of counterintuitive to accelerate instead of braking but if you accelerate the extra load on the rear of the tow car straightens the sway.
There are devices to prevent this happening by increasing the resistance to side to side movement.
The Bulldog is one.

Sweatynutsack

Its just one of those moments where you cant help put laugh

dharn

Sweatynutsack wrote: »

Its just one of those moments where you cant help put laugh

WHY ?

johnos1984

Sweatynutsack wrote: »

Its just one of those moments where you cant help put laugh

Having been in a fish tail after two tyres blew out on a horsebox I can assure you it is one of those moments where you crap yourself and hope the driver isn't a thick wad and can actually control it.

Fortunately in my case we stopped with frayed nerves and no damage done

gofaster_s13

CJhaughey wrote: »

It can be caused by harmonics with a long trailer.
I saw this happen before and one way of getting out of it is to accelerate out of it, kind of counterintuitive to accelerate instead of braking but if you accelerate the extra load on the rear of the tow car straightens the sway.
There are devices to prevent this happening by increasing the resistance to side to side movement.
The Bulldog is one.

I worked for a company a few years ago who made us do a course in trailer pulling and we were told that common understanding was to accelerate out of a fishtail but in reality the correct way to deal with it was to break slowly as with a badly balanced load you can exacerbate the problem by accelerating as in can overload the suspension mid sway.

Sweatynutsack

dharn wrote: »

WHY ?

Because it is !! I'm not suggesting that its a humerous issue but just watching and knowing theirs feck all you can do is quite funny

dirtydiesel

Power on is the only way to sort that but in his case doubt he could of got the power up fast enough, pulling way too much weight there.

dirtydiesel

Just had another luck at it and the trailer is very high off the ground, the car on it is sitting almost the height of the back window of the vehicle towing it, must of been crazy to even attempt towing it.

corktina

hard to tell but it looks to me as if the car is too far back on the trailer. About midway over the wheels with a Beemer (and its famed near perfect front rear weight distribution) would not be a good idea, you need a good bit of the weight carried on the towbar and theredfore on the tow vehciles back axle.

mgbgt1978

You need a decent amount of nose weight to avoid fish-tailing. As corktina said the BMW is a fairly well balanced car. Therefore it should be further forward on the trailer.
If you ever have to stand on a trailer to force it down to hitch on to the towbar then you can be pretty certain that anything over 40mph will be great fun.

galwaytt

..well I don't think it's funny, either.

I towed my car, on a Brian James low-loader (proper one), behind a Transporter, to Dublin on Monday, and at one stage had a very mild fishtail.....which got me to thinking......

I wasn't sure what the cure was, and lightly braking made it worse, so did the opposite thing: accelerate. Which leads me to believe that it starts with a 'push' from the trailer.

That video, though: trailer way too high. Fine if you're going to travel at 40kph or something - but not at ordinary speeds.

TrailerBob

^^ Very true, trailer looks equivalent to ifor williams - hitches on those are too high for cars and some 4x4s too. 16ft tri axle when balanced sits about 2 inches below towbar on the landcruiser. But put it on a friends pajero a while back and had to push it down, needless to say he wasn't going far.

Solnskaya

I've done a lot of very heavy towing with cars/vans jeeps and if you are at all in tune with what you are doing, there is a speed at which you can travel and just 5mph over that will begin to instigate speed wobble. Whatever you do, don't accelerate. Slow as rapidly as you can to your safe speed(it could be 20kph, it could be 40kph) while trying to keep the tow vehicle as steady as you can. I've seen(on uk motorway) a Dicovery flipped clean over by its caravan on the downhill section of the northern M1 - utterly destroyed jeep and c.van. So, just because you've a jeep doesn't mean you can hammer on. If the load is rear-heavy it will wobble easier, but even a well loaded but heavy trailer can flip you. The cure is easy, drive slowly and you will never have the consequences of the trailer dominating the tow-car.

gofaster_s13

Solnskaya wrote: »

I've done a lot of very heavy towing with cars/vans jeeps and if you are at all in tune with what you are doing, there is a speed at which you can travel and just 5mph over that will begin to instigate speed wobble. Whatever you do, don't accelerate. Slow as rapidly as you can to your safe speed(it could be 20kph, it could be 40kph) while trying to keep the tow vehicle as steady as you can. I've seen(on uk motorway) a Dicovery flipped clean over by its caravan on the downhill section of the northern M1 - utterly destroyed jeep and c.van. So, just because you've a jeep doesn't mean you can hammer on. If the load is rear-heavy it will wobble easier, but even a well loaded but heavy trailer can flip you. The cure is easy, drive slowly and you will never have the consequences of the trailer dominating the tow-car.

Correct, considering that it's generally excess speed that cause's the wobble, going faster will not cure it.

CiniO

Just to clarify few things.

1. Yes, as someone said it was in Poland, and I've seen the same video on Polish motor forum last week.

2. That's what a person who was driving it said:

-(..)tak żeby była jasność -wcale nie jechałem szybko i nie odstawiałem dryftów z lawetą. W kombiaku miałem z tyłu 18" i nie mogłem zbyt głęboko wjechać driftowozem na lawetę. Był za mały nacisk na hak i jadąc z górki to laweta przejęła kontrolę nad wszystkim.

Where he claims in short, that he wasn't driving fast. Because of 18" wheels he couldn't drive to deep into the trailer, so the weight was too much on the back. to little pressure on the hatch, and when going down the hill, trailer took control of the whole thing.

3. I wasn't to interested, but people say that most likely weight limit was not exceeded. That estate has a big towing capacity. It's just wrong weight distribution on the trailer which caused it.

peasant

Some people also say that when transporting a car you should tie it down into its supension somewhat (in other words, put the ties over the axles, not just the wheels and pull down) so that the car doesn't wobble too much on the trailer

corktina

i got a bit of fishtailing on the way back from the UK once, as soon as I hit the motorway. I stopped and moved the loaded car forward an inch or two and was grand the whole way home after.

dnme

neah, French, doesn't matter

Solnskaya

Last time I checked, "Curva" tends to be the catch all Polish expletive. Lots of "Curvas" in the vid!

unkel

CiniO wrote: »

he claims in short, that he wasn't driving fast.

If you're fishtailing, you're driving too fast by definition, as Solnskaya said. Looks to me the driver is going well over 80km/h, which is extremely unwise seeing what he is towing. I doubt he has the correct license for the combo either as the combined gross vehicle rates is well over 3,500KG and he obviously doesn't have enough experience towing.

When fishtailing, NEVER EVER accelerate (unless you drive a Porsche Cayenne Turbo 4.8l petrol, 500BHP, 700NM ). This will always make it worse. Take your foot off the brake and gently brake in short bursts exactly when the trailer is straight behind the towing vehicle during its weaving cycle

dnme

Solnskaya wrote: »

Last time I checked, "Curva" tends to be the catch all Polish expletive. Lots of "Curvas" in the vid!

yeah as long as their foreign, who cares:cool:

Solnskaya

dnme wrote: »

yeah as long as their foreign, who cares:cool:

well thats one interpretation, another would be that I work with a lot of Polish and Romanian guys that I have a lot of time for as they are hard working, friendly, good fun, and say "Curva" a lot!:D

CJhaughey

unkel wrote: »

I
When fishtailing, NEVER EVER accelerate (unless you drive a Porsche Cayenne Turbo 4.8l petrol, 500BHP, 700NM ). This will always make it worse. Take your foot off the brake and gently brake in short bursts exactly when the trailer is straight behind the towing vehicle during its weaving cycle

That seems like good advice but tbh is probably beyond most drivers ability especially in a situation where you are chitting yourself.
That sequence happened from a gentle sway to roll over in just on 5 seconds 3 seconds into it there was probably no way back, the weave had already caused the trailer to cross the centre line of the road.
You may have the icy nerve and skill needed to brake in exact sequence with the trailers weave but for most mere mortals including myself it will have been too late 3 seconds into the weave.

unkel

CJhaughey wrote: »

That seems like good advice but tbh is probably beyond most drivers ability especially in a situation where you are chitting yourself.
That sequence happened from a gentle sway to roll over in just on 5 seconds 3 seconds into it there was probably no way back, the weave had already caused the trailer to cross the centre line of the road.
You may have the icy nerve and skill needed to brake in exact sequence with the trailers weave but for most mere mortals including myself it will have been too late 3 seconds into the weave.

Oh, believe me I'm no hero and I'm not a particularly gifted or skilled driver either

And I had all my towing experience when I was still a teenager. That was a long time ago

I do have a very strong sense of safe driving though. Something the driver of the towing vehicle in that clip seriously lacks. He's an incompetent idiot going way too fast. And most likely not qualified to tow hat combo.

jimmycrackcorm

squod wrote: »

Made on a mobile phone.

Why the dislike?

A) Is it because the quality of some mobile phone cameras is poor?
You think that if we are going to learn from real life incidents that they should be professionally done
C) You think the driver moved from the left-had driving positon over to the passenger seat to shoot the video?

CJhaughey

I haven't seen this here yet, still looking though.:D

challengemaster

Fook... probably the least expected way to damage a drift car :eek:

CiniO

unkel wrote: »

If you're fishtailing, you're driving too fast by definition, as Solnskaya said. Looks to me the driver is going well over 80km/h, which is extremely unwise seeing what he is towing. I doubt he has the correct license for the combo either as the combined gross vehicle rates is well over 3,500KG and he obviously doesn't have enough experience towing.

First I actually wanted to disagree with you, as that's exactly what the driver wrote that he wasn't going fast.
But I decided to do a little calculations.
The broken white line is 4metre line + 8 metre break. That makes 12 metres every part of the line.
If you analyze video, you get 14 breaks during first 6 seconds of the movie, which makes it 140 brakes per minute. Mutiply by 12 metres, and you get 1.68 km per minutes, which is just about 100 km/h.
So yes - he was going to fast. You were right.

But I seriously doubt he was driving without correct licence.
Those lads transporting cars, run from Poland to Germany all the time, to bring some cars.
There's no way they would get away to drive it without approriate EB licence.
That's the Continent - not Ireland. You have to have a licence to drive a vehicle - otherwise you won't go to far.

When fishtailing, NEVER EVER accelerate (unless you drive a Porsche Cayenne Turbo 4.8l petrol, 500BHP, 700NM ). This will always make it worse. Take your foot off the brake and gently brake in short bursts exactly when the trailer is straight behind the towing vehicle during its weaving cycle

I know nothing about towing trailers, but what I've read that accelerating might help.
Better option though is what you are saying, with only difference, that instead of gently braking in short bursts exactly when trailer is straight behind the towing vehicle, you should just slam it on a breaks for a second in that moment.

But that's only theory - I've never really driven with any trailers.

CiniO

Solnskaya wrote: »

well thats one interpretation, another would be that I work with a lot of Polish and Romanian guys that I have a lot of time for as they are hard working, friendly, good fun, and say "Curva" a lot!:D

It's doesn't say good about them.
People who tent to say "Kurwa" (that's the correct spelling) all the time, are usually from the lower class.
The same it probably wouldn't be nice to talk to anyone in English who tends to say fcuk every second word...

Cosmo K

CiniO wrote: »

The same it probably wouldn't be nice to talk to anyone in English who tends to say **** every second word...

Someone should tell Micheal O'Leary.....

slinky2000

Ouch!

Solnskaya

I've often set out with 2500kg of steel on a 14ft flatbed trailer, and depending on how it was loaded I have often had a safe speed of only 40kph, perhaps with 150km to drive with it. I then drive there at 40kph. If I want to press on and do 45 kph, the trailer will start to slightly wobble. Depending on what I'm driving, the tow vehicle might have the sheer weigh to dominate the trailer and keep it in line, but if it's just a 4*4 it will often not have the mass and will begin to weave, albeit gently - I slow back to the safe speed and stick to it rigidly no matter how dull the journey might then get. It's just a matter of feel and experience. I have known plenty of guys who have flipped the ditch while towing, some with horrendously expensive consequences. Slow and steady when its heavy. With a light or empty trailer, shoe it on.
edit: I think the days of towing trailers are nearly over anyway and we no longer do it much if ever, I prefer a truck or flatbed van these days. Pulling a trailer with weight is a compliance nightmare and to be avoided if at all possible.

TrailerBob

CiniO wrote: »

I know nothing about towing trailers, but what I've read that accelerating might help.
Better option though is what you are saying, with only difference, that instead of gently braking in short bursts exactly when trailer is straight behind the towing vehicle, you should just slam it on a breaks for a second in that moment.

But that's only theory - I've never really driven with any trailers.

I'm not getting on your case here, but if you've never driven with trailers then why do you feel qualified to give such advice about what to do in these situations - It just seems a bit odd..

Imo, slamming on the brakes is best avoided at all costs with a heavy trailer, brakes will lock up and become more of a hinderance than a help.. especially in a fishtail, thats just my own experience

Sorry if it seems like having a go, just my opinion that reading is no substitute for experience on the road. Bob

CiniO

TrailerBob wrote: »

I'm not getting on your case here, but if you've never driven with trailers then why do you feel qualified to give such advice about what to do in these situations - It just seems a bit odd..

Imo, slamming on the brakes is best avoided at all costs with a heavy trailer, brakes will lock up and become more of a hinderance than a help.. especially in a fishtail, thats just my own experience

Sorry if it seems like having a go, just my opinion that reading is no substitute for experience on the road. Bob

As I said - that's only what I read somewhere.
I can't even remember where.

TrailerBob

Fair enough, think we all agree that the fella in the video was a plank!

Solnskaya

I'm not so sure plank covers it. A lot of people don't tow very often, and when they do, they assume it's business as usual. It is easy to fall into the trap of driving with a trailer as you would without. I started towing driving for Sierra doing roadworks, pulling diggers with clapped out vans in heavy trafic and spent most of my time at 30kph max in the city. I bought a load of timber for my own house and had to collect it, so I borrowed a trailer and hitched it to my car, and loaded up. Just beside Heuston station heading out to the N4 I picked up speed, and the trailer and load lifted up the rear of the car (a big heavy Volvo estate with a 2.3 turbo) and slammed the rear of the car from one lane to the other and back. I managed to slow it and control the wobble, but it cured me of speed and trailers once and for all. It was pure dumb luck I hit nothing and got back in control, but a lesson was learnt. My safe speed the rest of the 40 miles home was 17mph. Not much fun, but educational.

TrailerBob

Fair point. This is where our system is a joke, you learn absolutely nothing by getting a trailer license here. No training on safe speeds, none on distribution of loads, none on safe securing of load, none on maintenance, and so on....
Makes it too easy for people not used to it to make simple errors, with often disastrous results. I for one would like to see mandatory training before testing, just like cpc.