Hotel Deposit??

man.about.town

basically i booked a hotel in kilkenny for 6 people, 3 twin rooms a couple of days ago over ebookers. i got an email off the hotel today clarifying details of arrival. it also said this

"With all groups who stay with us we take a group security deposit of €500.00 on arrival. This is refunded on departure provided the rooms are left in satisfactory condition and there has been no noise complaints."

what if we refuse to pay it? it seems quite steep? we are not a rowdy group, we're playing golf saturday and sunday so not going to be going crazy at night. i find it a bit cheeky that each of us has to pay 85€ extra.

parsi

man.about.town wrote: »

basically i booked a hotel in kilkenny for 6 people, 3 twin rooms a couple of days ago over ebookers. i got an email off the hotel today clarifying details of arrival. it also said this

"With all groups who stay with us we take a group security deposit of €500.00 on arrival. This is refunded on departure provided the rooms are left in satisfactory condition and there has been no noise complaints."

what if we refuse to pay it? it seems quite steep? we are not a rowdy group, we're playing golf saturday and sunday so not going to be going crazy at night. i find it a bit cheeky that each of us has to pay 85€ extra.

Kilkenny is a popular hen/stag destination and I would imagine that this hotel has been stung in the past. You may (probably) be able to give this as a hold on your credit card and no actual cash needs to change hands unless yer man who gets a hole-in-one decides to go mad and throw the tv out the window.

antoinolachtnai

Hotel cannot really do this.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1963/en/act/pub/0007/print.html is relevant.

They are imposing special conditions and they are not really entitled to do that.

Similarly, rules requiring patrons to have a credit card are legally dubious.

You could tell them you will pay the deposit since they already wrongfully have your payment but you will complain tor Bord failte Eireann and ask that they be deregistered. I have no idea how successful this strategy will be though. The hotl proprietors act is widely ignored from what I can see.

Cabaal

I';ve never heard of this myself in Kilkenny but to be honest a group of 6 people at the weekend staying in a hotel in Kilkenny very likely could be part or all of a stag or hen party so in one sense I wouldn't blame them.

If your using a credit card for payment of the room I fail to see why they need a separate deposit.

Do they have a website, if so did you book through it? (I'm assuming you did since you e-mailed them)
Do they have T&C's for booking on the website and if so any chance of posting them up?

spurious

They will probably just pre-approve it on your credit card like they normally do about 50 euro in case you empty the minibar and leg it. It won't actually come out of your account.

Plus when they see you are old golfing codgers they will realise you are not the gallons of snakebite and spewing in the lift brigade (or maybe not).

maxer68

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Hotel cannot really do this.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1963/en/act/pub/0007/print.html is relevant.

They are imposing special conditions and they are not really entitled to do that.

Similarly, rules requiring patrons to have a credit card are legally dubious.

You could tell them you will pay the deposit since they already wrongfully have your payment but you will complain tor Bord failte Eireann and ask that they be deregistered. I have no idea how successful this strategy will be though. The hotl proprietors act is widely ignored from what I can see.

I can't see how that act supports the OP.

The hotel has a condition for a group of multiple guests booking together that is there to safeguard other guests and therefore the hotel is acting quite responsibly.

Someday, when you ahve a weekend ruined a a group of drunken satgs / hens, you'll wish that hotle had the same policy.

For the OP, if its a quiet weekend you're planning, you should have no problems and also be quite happy that other groups that may be there for other reasons will be well behaved.

A pre-auth on a credit card should be sufficient.

cgarvey

maxer68 wrote: »

I can't see how that act supports the OP.

Agreed! Hotel bucket sites usually have T&C wording that allows destination hotels dictate extra terms and usually states your booking is subject to those terms.

Other than many references to "special contract", I don't see anything in that act prohibiting this practice. I'd also consider it reasonable that a hotel refuse accommodation to a group of men refusing to pay a security deposit in a prime stag party location, in accordance with that act.

Morally, the hotel could have made this clearer on their description on the buckets site, so that it didn't come as a surprise after the transaction had gone through.

If you're not happy to pay the deposit (and you could barter with the amount with the hotel, if cashflow is a problem, offering pre-auth on your credit card or some lesser cash amount, etc.), I'm sure e-bookers would consider a full refund (given the lack of notice that this would/might happen).

Make sure the hotel doesn't have a reputation of inventing claims of guest complaints to retain some/all of your deposit (though I really don't think that's a huge concern)!

tfitzgerald

Demand your money back and move hotels also you should post the name of the hotel to prevent other people getting ripped off

antoinolachtnai

'The proprietor of a hotel is under a duty to receive at the hotel as guests all persons who, whether or not under special contract, present themselves and require sleeping accommodation, food or drink and to provide them therewith, unless he has reasonable grounds of refusal'

The hotel proprietor cannot refuse or restrict anybody as regards accommodation in a hotel on the basis of gender or on the basis of them being in a group.

The hotel proprietor can do something reasonable. But 'reasonable' is based on reasons. The proprietor doesn't have any reasons for demanding a large deposit in addition to the rent he has already received.

He may have had a bad experience with someone else (not the OP or his friends) before. But that doesn't have anything to do with the present situation. Based on the facts as presented, he hasn't even laid eyes on the OP and doesn't know anything about him. It isn't reasonable for him to now add these restrictions.

The HPA is the rules of the road for running a hotel. If the proprietor doesn't like the idea of taking all comers, he should not be running a hotel.

SteM

tfitzgerald wrote: »

Demand your money back and move hotels also you should post the name of the hotel to prevent other people getting ripped off

it's hardly a rip off! It's only a deposit, they'll get their money back. In fact they won't even have to hand money over, as others have said the e500 will just be pre authorised on a credit card.

tfitzgerald

SteM wrote: »

it's hardly a rip off! It's only a deposit, they'll get their money back. In fact they won't even have to hand money over, as others have said the e500 will just be pre authorised on a credit card.

until the hotel demands to be paid for something then its s rip off eg too mush toilet paper used so we are charging for that. when they have your money they can say anything they want .All i know is i would not pay the the deposit

jor el

tfitzgerald wrote: »

until the hotel demands to be paid for something then its s rip off eg too mush toilet paper used so we are charging for that.

Get real, will you? You're just making stuff up now. There's nothing out of the ordinary with a hotel charging a pre-auth to a card, a lot of hotels will do it. They can't just make up charges and hit you with them.

P. Breathnach

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

'The proprietor of a hotel is under a duty to receive at the hotel as guests all persons who, whether or not under special contract, present themselves and require sleeping accommodation, food or drink and to provide them therewith, unless he has reasonable grounds of refusal'

The hotel proprietor cannot refuse or restrict anybody as regards accommodation in a hotel on the basis of gender or on the basis of them being in a group.

The hotel proprietor can do something reasonable. But 'reasonable' is based on reasons. The proprietor doesn't have any reasons for demanding a large deposit in addition to the rent he has already received.

He may have had a bad experience with someone else (not the OP or his friends) before. But that doesn't have anything to do with the present situation. Based on the facts as presented, he hasn't even laid eyes on the OP and doesn't know anything about him. It isn't reasonable for him to now add these restrictions.

The HPA is the rules of the road for running a hotel. If the proprietor doesn't like the idea of taking all comers, he should not be running a hotel.

If you want to make a case on this basis, then the hotelier can meet the case by demanding the rack rate, which is almost certainly a good deal higher than the rate OP got on e-bookers.

dudara

tfitzgerald wrote: »

Demand your money back and move hotels also you should post the name of the hotel to prevent other people getting ripped off

It's only a rip-off if you pay it.

Please don't name the premises here.

dudara

P. Breathnach

tfitzgerald wrote: »

Demand your money back and move hotels also you should post the name of the hotel to prevent other people getting ripped off

tfitzgerald wrote: »

until the hotel demands to be paid for something then its s rip off eg too mush toilet paper used so we are charging for that. when they have your money they can say anything they want .All i know is i would not pay the the deposit

Given your attitude to hoteliers, I am sure that they would be pleased if you took your business elsewhere.

ted1

it's gereally used to ensure you have enough money on your card incase you start charging food and drink to your rooms.

if your there for a weekend you may go on a spending spree and the last thing you do is check out. when you check out you realise you may have maxed out your card, so what happens then.

whydoibother?

Check carefully if you agreed to this in the T & C's.

If not, I find it quite unreasonable. The fact that you will get the deposit back if you don't break anything doesn't make it insignificant. What if a person doesn't have that 85 euro per person to hand over for the weekend?

(I know this is unlikely in a hotel that organizes golfing holidays, but still, it's the principle)

SteM

tfitzgerald wrote: »

until the hotel demands to be paid for something then its s rip off eg too mush toilet paper used so we are charging for that. when they have your money they can say anything they want .All i know is i would not pay the the deposit

I think you're being over-dramatic. There's no 'rip off' happening here, just a hotel trying to protect itself.

tfitzgerald

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Given your attitude to hoteliers, I am sure that they would be pleased if you took your business elsewhere.

my attitude to hoteliers is fine thank you. i treat people the same way that i expect to be treated i stay in a lot of hotels an i never heard of this before . I do not like being ripped off and it seems to me that is whats going on here. but you can sit back and let people walk all over you and your lovely attitude

dudara

Posters - please remain polite to each other.

The simple fact is that it is the hotel's perrogative to charge this deposit if they wish. If you don't want to pay it, either negotiate with them or tale your business elsewhere.

Thoie

I can't remember the last time I stayed in a hotel (whether as a solo traveller or in a group) and wasn't charged a security deposit. As other posters have said, it's usually a preauth on the credit card to cover things like minbars, room service, stealing towels, dressing gowns, table lamps...

The hotelier isn't actively taking the money when it's a CC preauth - so I'm not paying interest on it or anything, it just means that money is reserved for them should I run off. I consider it completely reasonable, and not a consumer rights issue.

hdowney

that works all fine and dandy if you have such a thing as a credit card. but you can pay for hotels online or over the phone by debit card these days, so how can they then take a pre-auth deposit from your debit card? they can't they would actively be taking the money out of your account, as in you would be down the amount of their deposit?

whydoibother?

Thoie wrote: »

I can't remember the last time I stayed in a hotel (whether as a solo traveller or in a group) and wasn't charged a security deposit. As other posters have said, it's usually a preauth on the credit card to cover things like minbars, room service, stealing towels, dressing gowns, table lamps...

The hotelier isn't actively taking the money when it's a CC preauth - so I'm not paying interest on it or anything, it just means that money is reserved for them should I run off. I consider it completely reasonable, and not a consumer rights issue.

Yes, but if they're "reserving" your money in a way that doesn't allow you to spend it on something else, should you need to, it should be in the terms and conditions in my opinion. I'm fine with them doing it as long as I'm forewarned. They can't hit you with that as a surprise after you've booked.

alex73

I think it has been explained wrong to you. when making a booking their look for Credit Card, When you arrive they will make a pre-Authorisation of 500 euros on the cart, (without taking the money)

Should anything go wrong (like you leaving without paying) they will debt the charge from your card.

Happened to me one, I took something from mini bar but forgot to say at checkout, so they debited the charge later.

Its kind of standard practice for hotels.. Nothing out of the normal.

whydoibother?

alex73 wrote: »

I think it has been explained wrong to you. when making a booking their look for Credit Card, When you arrive they will make a pre-Authorisation of 500 euros on the cart, (without taking the money)

Should anything go wrong (like you leaving without paying) they will debt the charge from your card.

Happened to me one, I took something from mini bar but forgot to say at checkout, so they debited the charge later.

Its kind of standard practice for hotels.. Nothing out of the normal.

That's what I thought was normal too. But if that is what happened here, I cannot understand where the specific amount of 85 euro came from or why it is described as a deposit. When they pre-authorize your card, surely they can take any amount that is necessary to compensate them for whatever damage was caused?

Pythia

Why don't you cancel the booking, get the deposit back and then make 3 separate bookings? Then you are no longer a big group but 3 couples.

booboo88

ooh to be in kilkenny again
seriously id much rather book into a more expensive hotel than pay 500eur dep.....
the cheek of them, not everyone is a hooligan ya know

thecommander

booboo88 wrote: »

ooh to be in kilkenny again
seriously id much rather book into a more expensive hotel than pay 500eur dep.....
the cheek of them, not everyone is a hooligan ya know

More expensive hotel will pre auth too.

booboo88

from someone who worked in a hotel, pre auth means to pre authorise a payment, say if you leave with out paying, but they dont actually take anything out of your acc until you check in, which you either pay by cash there and then. there should be no dep required once they pre auth,

maxer68

tfitzgerald wrote: »

my attitude to hoteliers is fine thank you. i treat people the same way that i expect to be treated i stay in a lot of hotels an i never heard of this before . I do not like being ripped off and it seems to me that is whats going on here. but you can sit back and let people walk all over you and your lovely attitude

Can you show where the rip off is in this? The hotel does not have the credit card details of the op as they booked through a third party and wants a deposit in case items are broken or stolen due to misuse. As they cannot discriminate between different groups of people, they must apply it to all groups.


If you ever dealt with the hotel industry, you'd be extremely surprised at what goes "missing" from rooms, especially where groups are concerned.

whydoibother? wrote: »

That's what I thought was normal too. But if that is what happened here, I cannot understand where the specific amount of 85 euro came from or why it is described as a deposit. When they pre-authorize your card, surely they can take any amount that is necessary to compensate them for whatever damage was caused?

its not €85 per person, its €500 per group. It's a joint deposit which can be called upon no matter what member of the group causes the damage - ever try to get one person in a group to own up to damage / theft?

antoinolachtnai

P. Breathnach wrote: »

If you want to make a case on this basis, then the hotelier can meet the case by demanding the rack rate, which is almost certainly a good deal higher than the rate OP got on e-bookers.

What does the rack rate have to do with anything?

whydoibother?

maxer68 wrote: »

its not €85 per person, its €500 per group. It's a joint deposit which can be called upon no matter what member of the group causes the damage - ever try to get one person in a group to own up to damage / theft?

Thanks for clarifying, but it's irrelevant to my point whether it's done by group or individually. All I want to know is was it in the T & C's when the person booked? This shouldn't be done by surprise when they arrive imo.

P. Breathnach

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

What does the rack rate have to do with anything?

If you get "legalistic" with a hotel, citing the Hotel Proprietors Act, 1963 and telling them what their obligations are to strangers, it's almost a racing certainty that the hotelier will become just as awkward, and charge the highest permissible rate.

maxer68

whydoibother? wrote: »

Thanks for clarifying, but it's irrelevant to my point whether it's done by group or individually. All I want to know is was it in the T & C's when the person booked? This shouldn't be done by surprise when they arrive imo.

It wasn't done om arrival, the hotel contacted them beforehand and informed the person making the booking about the special condition they apply to groups. As I've said previously, the op should be quite happy about this as it means the trip wont be ruined by a drunken group of hens or stays. (If you had seen the behaviour of one small group at the curragh races yesterday you'd understand where I was coming from)

whydoibother?

maxer68 wrote: »

It wasn't done om arrival, the hotel contacted them beforehand and informed the person making the booking about the special condition they apply to groups. As I've said previously, the op should be quite happy about this as it means the trip wont be ruined by a drunken group of hens or stays. (If you had seen the behaviour of one small group at the curragh races yesterday you'd understand where I was coming from)

I have never for a second disputed the legitimacy of these types of protection measures for hotels per se. What I want to know is whether the person who makes the booking is aware of this before the contract is made? They should be. Why not stick this on the website with all the other conditions.

antoinolachtnai

The hotel has no right to charge the rack rate when you have a prior prepaid booking at a lower rate.

What the hotel and the agent are doing is classic bait-and-switch - putting one set of prices, terms and conditions forward to get the money then changing them to another set once they have the money. Apart from the HPA, this is forbidden by the Consumer Protection Act 2007, s.43(3)(b)(ii). It is a criminal offence.

I did not propose citing the HPA. This would serve no purpose as the hotel proprietor clearly has the OP in an impossible position. I proposed complaining to BFE and asking to have the hotel de-registered.

P. Breathnach

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

... What the hotel and the agent are doing is classic bait-and-switch - putting one set of prices, terms and conditions forward to get the money then changing them to another set once they have the money. Apart from the HPA, this is forbidden by the Consumer Protection Act 2007, s.43(3)(b)(ii). It is a criminal offence.

It's remarkable how much you know about the facts, considering that the rest of us are not privy to the dealings that OP had with the hotel. We don't even know the name of the establishment.

I did not propose citing the HPA. This would serve no purpose as the hotel proprietor clearly has the OP in an impossible position. I proposed complaining to BFE and asking to have the hotel de-registered.

Sledgehammer; nut.

antoinolachtnai

Well, you are either going to do something about it or you aren't. Remonstrating with the hotel proprietor and refusing to pay the deposit isn't going to get the OP anywhere at all.

Have you ever cracked a nut with a sledgehammer? It's very satisfying (as long as you don't need to eat the nut).

Del2005

Just checked the Ebookers T&Cs

3. HOTEL/ACCOMMODATION ONLY BOOKINGS


Rate Availability

All hotel rates are valid for Irish residents only. If you are not an Irish resident please call us for further information on 01 4311 311.
a) Additional Local Charges

Certain of our hotels will require an additional charge to be paid locally (e.g. a resort fee) at the time of check in or check out. Please note this amount is in addition to the amount shown during the booking process under the 'total booking cost' amount. If applicable, such amount will be displayed on the trip details page in the 'pricing summary section.

Seems to me the OP has already agreed to paying an additional local charge and at least they'll get it back.

antoinolachtnai

Only if it was stated in the 'pricing summary section'.

Savman

€500 is an insane amount of money for a hotel deposit, no way in a million years would I stay in a ramshackle place that made such outrageous demands. I would simply take my business elsewhere.

I have never seen such an amount in any hotel I've stayed in for any length of time, it's usually €100-200 for "incidentals" - that's the benchmark in the US, UK and most of the civilised world, so I don't see why Kilkenny should be given special exemption just because it attracts Stags & Hens. There are many spots in Europe that attract similar groups.

Walk away, OP.

maxer68

Savman wrote: »

€500 is an insane amount of money for a hotel deposit, no way in a million years would I stay in a ramshackle place that made such outrageous demands. I would simply take my business elsewhere.

I have never seen such an amount in any hotel I've stayed in for any length of time, it's usually €100-200 for "incidentals" - that's the benchmark in the US, UK and most of the civilised world, so I don't see why Kilkenny should be given special exemption just because it attracts Stags & Hens. There are many spots in Europe that attract similar groups.

Walk away, OP.

Its €500 per group and if yopu have ever seen the way some of these "groups" leave hotels, you'd very quickly realise that €500 is usually not enough to even start covering the damage.

The hotel uses thsi to PREVENT damage and therefore lower iot costs so that they don;t have to add 10% to everyone's bill to cover the crap a select few leave behind.

As i said, I would be more than willing to pay this if I were in a group of golfers - it is a REFUNDABLE deposit, NOT a charge. It tells me that I would not have to endure the noise and shennanigans that go on with a lot of these groups and assuming an early tee time, the OP should be very glad to see the hotel taking such matters seriously.

maxer68

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

What the hotel and the agent are doing is classic bait-and-switch - putting one set of prices, terms and conditions forward to get the money then changing them to another set once they have the money. Apart from the HPA, this is forbidden by the Consumer Protection Act 2007, s.43(3)(b)(ii). It is a criminal offence.

QUOTE]

total bullsh1t

Savman

maxer68 wrote: »

Its €500 per group and if yopu have ever seen the way some of these "groups" leave hotels, you'd very quickly realise that €500 is usually not enough to even start covering the damage.

The hotel uses thsi to PREVENT damage and therefore lower iot costs so that they don;t have to add 10% to everyone's bill to cover the crap a select few leave behind.

As i said, I would be more than willing to pay this if I were in a group of golfers - it is a REFUNDABLE deposit, NOT a charge. It tells me that I would not have to endure the noise and shennanigans that go on with a lot of these groups and assuming an early tee time, the OP should be very glad to see the hotel taking such matters seriously.

I don't care what it is, the hotel obviously see it as justified but on the other hand it's completely shortsighted as it turns off normal well behaved travellers which is just barmy. I'm telling you that I would not stay in any hotel that imposed such a charge, hotels are a dime a dozen so there is no need to be to ransom for some stupid stone age policy.

But hey, it's a free economy and if they think they can get away with it all well and good, I'm guessing a hotel that is so selective about it's guests must be able to boast near full occupancy every month of they year otherwise it's even more baffling.

maxer68

Savman wrote: »

I don't care what it is, the hotel obviously see it as justified but on the other hand it's completely shortsighted as it turns off normal well behaved travellers which is just barmy. I'm telling you that I would not stay in any hotel that imposed such a charge, hotels are a dime a dozen so there is no need to be to ransom for some stupid stone age policy.

But hey, it's a free economy and if they think they can get away with it all well and good, I'm guessing a hotel that is so selective about it's guests must be able to boast near full occupancy every month of they year otherwise it's even more baffling.

Obviously you've never had the pleasure of staying in a hotel with a group on a hen / stag party screaming and shouting till all hours of the night.

The hotel is PROTECTING its guests with this deposit system for groups. Its protecting the gropups who want a quiet weekend of goldf and its protecting the couple/family who want a weekend of relaxing.

The only people it will affect are those who have no conscience for other hotel guest or for hotel property.

The hotel should be congratulated for the policy and as said before the OP should be overjoyed that his weekend won't be runined by people off their head with drink and who don't give a damn about others.

latenia

Having less than €100 per person tied up for a couple of days is hardly the worst thing in the world.

Savman

maxer68 wrote: »

Obviously you've never had the pleasure of staying in a hotel with a group on a hen / stag party screaming and shouting till all hours of the night.

The hotel is PROTECTING its guests with this deposit system for groups. Its protecting the gropups who want a quiet weekend of goldf and its protecting the couple/family who want a weekend of relaxing.

The only people it will affect are those who have no conscience for other hotel guest or for hotel property.

The hotel should be congratulated for the policy and as said before the OP should be overjoyed that his weekend won't be runined by people off their head with drink and who don't give a damn about others.

So because this affects me, I have no conscience for the hotel guests and property? Pure nonsense. Defend it all you want, it's an OTT charge totally out of touch with the everyday traveller. If every hotel charged a €500 deposit the entire industry would collapse, it's just pure stupidity of the highest order and I would strongly encourage people to refuse these shoddy places their valued custom. Not exactly a warm hearted welcome is it :rolleyes:

I reiterate the point that while it may be within their rights to charge it, it's within the customers' rights to tell them where to stick it. It's not like there is a shortage of hotels around the place, least of all in a spot like Kilkenny. If you're happy to go along, that's your prerogative but personally speaking I would simply never agree to such a charge.

I haven't ever been charged that much for a car rental deposit for feck sake, and there's an asset worth upwards of €15k.

maxer68

Savman wrote: »

So because this affects me, I have no conscience for the hotel guests and property? Pure nonsense. Defend it all you want, it's an OTT charge totally out of touch with the everyday traveller. If every hotel charged a €500 deposit the entire industry would collapse, it's just pure stupidity of the highest order and I would strongly encourage people to refuse these shoddy places their valued custom. Not exactly a warm hearted welcome is it :rolleyes:

I reiterate the point that while it may be within their rights to charge it, it's within the customers' rights to tell them where to stick it. It's not like there is a shortage of hotels around the place, least of all in a spot like Kilkenny. If you're happy to go along, that's your prerogative but personally speaking I would simply never agree to such a charge.

I haven't ever been charged that much for a car rental deposit for feck sake, and there's an asset worth upwards of €15k.

It doesn't affect you - you're not the OP.

Read the OP. The rooms were purchased through a third party. The hotel has no access to a credit card for charging damage to.

There's an element in society that thinks whatever is not nailed to the floor in a hotel is theirs for taking - do you want to pay for this or would you prefer that the hotel has a way of charging those who did the damage?

If you rent a car, you MUST provide a credit card - no option whatsoever these days. They will and can take whatever is required off the credit card if you leave the car back damaged or leave tickets / tolls unpaid. - And they won't tell you in advance!

Boggles

If you weren't made aware of this clause when you booked the rooms then you couldn't possibly make an informed decision and therefore were in no position to agree to the contract. The small print suggests that the charge will be made visible in a "price summary", if it wasn't and your not happy with the hotels T&Cs than I suggest you cancel the rooms and book somewhere else.

Personally I never give a hotel card details, I always insist on a cash room. If they harp on about policy, I insist on an inspection before I check out, but also a detailed pre inspection. Usually shuts them up.

Of course there is people out there who will take the shower curtain, but also there are hotels out there who will try charge you for something that was not your fault.

Hotels have a right to protect themselves, but equally so do you.