septic tank charge, get ready

REV T SAWBALLS

it has been mooted approx 250 euro for your yearly septic tank inspection
farmers are seeking an exemption.
anyone any idea how much approx this will rake in for the govt?

later12

This is the original 2009 judgement as handed down by the ECJ

The Court:
1. Declares that, by failing to adopt, save in County Cavan, all the laws, regulations and administrative provisions necessary to comply with Articles 4 and 8 of Council Directive 75/442/EEC of 15 July 1975 on waste, as amended by Council Directive 91/156/EEC of 18 March 1991, as regards domestic waste waters disposed of in the countryside through septic tanks and other individual waste water treatment systems, Ireland has failed to fulfil its obligations under that directive;
2. Orders Ireland to pay three quarters of the costs of the Commission of the European Communities and to bear its own costs;
3. Orders the Commission of the European Communities to bear one quarter of its own costs.

After the judgement, the commission said

Discharges from septic tanks, of which there are more than 400,000 in Ireland, have contributed to micro-biological pollution of groundwater and nutrient pollution of surface waters. Human health is put at risk because pathogens can enter drinking water sources via septic tanks that are poorly designed, located or maintained.

First of all, the EU directive requires member state to establish a permit and monitoring system. It doesn't specifically require Ireland to charge a specific amount of money to rural dwellers for this service, although under the circumstances, some sort of fee is understandable.

However, I wonder where the Commission is getting its information. At a recent conference in Galway, the EPA have pointed specifically to agricultural runoff and municipal authority waste as being responsible for much of the pollution in Irish rivers and in lakes

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0615/epa.html

EPA Programme Manager Gerard O'Leary said much of this comes from agricultural effluent or badly maintained municipal waste water treatment plants.

So lets be clear here, while certainly Ireland is being compelled by the European Commission to set up a permit system, we do not know that this is going to solve the pollution problem itself. 900 of our lakes and rivers are badly or moderately polluted, how much of this is due to municipal waste?

A fee of €250 has been mentioned, although I struggle to understand why the reported figure is at that level, considering that what the EU are asking for is for a permit system and a monitoring system. Would that cost €250/ household? If so, why?

What is already in place in Co Cavan that impressed the ECJ, does anybody know? Why is Cavan operating well without such a fee being implemented?

it has been mooted approx 250 euro for your yearly septic tank inspection
farmers are seeking an exemption.
anyone any idea how much approx this will rake in for the govt?

Well, according to the EC there are 400,000 septic tanks

400,000 x €250 = €100,000,000.

However, I presume it will not be an annual fee, and I presume monitoring and permit granting will be a phased method.

Manach

I'd gladly pay, assuming it comes with the right to expect the local TD to show up when it is blocked to clear it, (I'll get the over-alls ready for him/her).

Bob Cratchet

Yet another money making scam for cronies at the taxpayers expense.
What's next - breathing air tax ?
Maybe they could find a way of metering the oxygen we need to breath, and pay private cronies to install, maintain, and read meters, and bill us for public air.

sollar

So that will be a septic tank charge + water charge + household charge :mad:

later12

sollar wrote: »

So that will be a septic tank charge + water charge + household charge :mad:

Yes but no new taxes, remember that now boys and girls, no new taxes!

crx===

"However, I presume it will not be an annual fee, and I presume monitoring and permit granting will be a phased method."

Yes it has been mentioned that this will be an annual fee !!..... after all this is IRELAND!

Bob Cratchet

crx=== wrote: »

Yes it has been mentioned that this will be an annual fee !!..... after all this is IRELAND!

No fee . . . No pee

Atlantic Dawn

400,000 x €250 = €100,000,000, that's nearly €2 million a week, is the Manchester United squad going to be doing the inspections?

later12

crx=== wrote: »

Yes it has been mentioned that this will be an annual fee !!..... after all this is IRELAND!

An annual fee? Really? If that is the case it just makes it more absurd - does anybody know how many member states have annual septic tank checkups? Does anyone know where it says that such regular checkups are demanded in the directive?

And does anyone know how exactly Cavan have been said by the ECJ to be compliant with the directive when annual checks are not a policy in Cavan?

Dannyboy83

Hardly surprising lads.

For example, NCTs are now annual on cars 10 years old.

What changed between 2008 and 2009?
Did cars suddenly become less safe?
Of course not.

jmayo

I started a thread over on Accomodation & Property on this because the fee mooted is absolutely ridiculous and sounds like a total rip off.
This looks like an opportunity to nail those who would not be connected to public water supply and thus should be immune from water metering.

Manach wrote: »

I'd gladly pay, assuming it comes with the right to expect the local TD to show up when it is blocked to clear it, (I'll get the over-alls ready for him/her).

My personal idea was to use ffers to test the tanks.
They could be dipped in left, left to abosrb the contents and then extracted.
If they expired then the septic test was a fail.

sollar wrote: »

So that will be a septic tank charge + water charge + household charge :mad:

Ehh why should house with private water supply pay water charges ?

I have asked this before and sometimes it appears that all households even if organising and paying for their own water are to be hit.

later10 wrote: »

An annual fee? Really? If that is the case it just makes it more absurd - ...

For once I agree with you.

later10 wrote: »

And does anyone know how exactly Cavan have been said by the ECJ to be compliant with the directive when annual checks are not a policy in Cavan?

Cavan people are very careful with all outgoings don't you know.

munchkin_utd

later10 wrote: »

What is already in place in Co Cavan that impressed the ECJ, does anybody know? Why is Cavan operating well without such a fee being implemented?

I presume its due to the Cavan County Council
"Waste water treatment systems for single houses - Bye-Laws 2004"

http://www.cavancoco.ie/cavanweb/publish/domain/cavancoco/file/environment/environmental-water-services/bye-laws/waste-water-treatment-system-for-single-houses-bye-laws-2004.pdf

The reason for the law is that there are so many lakes and streams and rivers due to the undulating Drumlin hills that any runoff from houses or farms ends up in the waterways very quickly - the end effect being algae build up and fish kills. Back in the 80s and 90s it happened an awful lot. I'm away a while now but I havent heard of any fish kills in the past while so it seems to be working.

thie law in Cavan includes such inspections and measures such as :

6.1 Wastewater treatment systems shall be inspected by a competent person at least once every seven years after initial inspection (section 2.2), for structural soundness, watertightness of the treatment system and for visual signs of malfunction.

6.2 A certificate shall be given in proof of each inspection certifying that the wastewater treatment system is operating satisfactorily. If after each 7-yearly inspection any deficiencies or malfunctions are identified, the occupier shall notify the Local Authority within 14 days, together with a programme for repair.

6.3 Records of tank emptying and inspections, initial, seven-yearly and maintenance, shall be kept up-to-date and shall be available at all reasonable times for inspection by an authorised person of the Local Authority and be provided to the Local Authority on request in writing

Cookie_Monster

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

400,000 x €250 = €100,000,000, that's nearly €2 million a week

well you'll have to knock 20-30% off that for all those "poor" people who'll be exempt, then also the elderly - 10%, non payment factor -10%, so down about 50% already then...

dynamick

Cavan inspects every 7 years. So if the national scheme inspects with that interval that would require 50K inspections per year (new green/brown jobs). They could start with 2nd homes from the NPPR register that all local councils now possess. There are 300K houses on the NPPR so assuming that a third of these have septic tanks they could limit the inspections to 2nd homes for the first two years. I'd expect the fee to be 50-80 quid which is what it costs in Scotland.

Septic tanks are meant to be desludged once a year and that costs what 200-250 quid?
So inspection will be 5% of maintenance costs over 7 years, assuming that you're bothering to desludge the tank at all.

Also farmers will probably be exempted from charges as they will be exempted from carbon tax rises on farm diesel.

REV T SAWBALLS

why should the farmers be exempted???
their sh1te any different than everyone elses???
they most likely will get a septic tank subsidy from brussells
along with all the other payments they get

Bob Cratchet

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

well you'll have to knock 20-30% off that for all those "poor" people who'll be exempt, then also the elderly - 10%, non payment factor -10%, so down about 50% already then...

Correct. The leisure class won't have to pay a penny.

Bob Cratchet

REV T SAWBALLS wrote: »

why should the farmers be exempted???
their sh1te any different than everyone elses???
they most likely will get a septic tank subsidy from brussells
along with all the other payments they get

Because they know farmers are not pushovers, unlike the rest of the serville sheeple who will do a bit of bleating but will still pay up to ensure the golden circle will continue to enjoy their billions of SCAMA and bailout money. Just more of the same old same. Maybe someday the Irish people will grow a set of balls.

ei.sdraob

What about treatment plants? ive put one in at great expense to clean waste and it costs about that much already to inspect it yearly

and what about the 20 odd million cattle,sheep etc roaming our fields doing their business in the open and releasing evil methane gas which might warm our island up a bit

Atlantic Dawn

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

well you'll have to knock 20-30% off that for all those "poor" people who'll be exempt, then also the elderly - 10%, non payment factor -10%, so down about 50% already then...

Ok we will say the whole Everton squad then doing the inspections

sollar

ei.sdraob wrote: »

What about treatment plants? ive put one in at great expense to clean waste and it costs about that much already to inspect it yearly

I'd be interested to know that also?

If that is the case then i'd like to shove phil hogans head down my tank.

galway2007

So the state pumps billions in to sewerage treatments plant for people's **** that live in town and cities but they want the people in the country to pay.
I have planning for my tank and it works correctly and they are not getting one cent from me till somebody comes and inspects the tank and tell me that it is not working correct.
People of rural Ireland will ye wake up for **** sake

Atlantic Dawn

I think this whole charge was dreamt up because otherwise those with their own wells and septic tanks will avoid the new water charges so this is how they will attempt to extract money from them.

Rabidlamb

This will be like non PPR levies, the day you admit to it then you're on the grid forever. Where do I sign up for this shaft me forever tax ?.

motherriley

These are charges are also done in the UK, in London I pay £1000 pa for council tax which is equivelent to property tax this is on a small one bedroom flat and also water charges are extra.

These taxes should be based on income not on property as if a person living on their own and on a fixed income of a pension and a family living across the road with in a property where there are 4 or 5 adults working in that family, I feel it is unfair to charge a person on a fixed income the same as a family with 4 or 5 adusts working in the home.:(

Icepick

REV T SAWBALLS wrote: »

why should the farmers be exempted???
their sh1te any different than everyone elses???
they most likely will get a septic tank subsidy from brussells
along with all the other payments they get

Because despite their tiny economic output, they have one of the best lobby groups.

5live

dynamick wrote: »

Also farmers will probably be exempted from charges as they will be exempted from carbon tax rises on farm diesel.

Farmers already pay carbon tax on diesel and will pay exactly the same charge as any other rural dweller. And as we all already pay water tax through metering with the last 3 years unlike the rest of the country then i would expect an exemption to apply up to the level of water charges already paid by farmers:D

dynamick

5live wrote: »

Farmers already pay carbon tax on diesel and will pay exactly the same charge as any other rural dweller.

The fine gael/labour programme for government contains this commitment:

We will exempt farm diesel from further increases in the carbon tax.

(see p62 from http://www.finegael.ie/upload/ProgrammeforGovernmentFinal.pdf)

This followed a commitment in the fine gael manifesto for 2011 to exempt farmers from future rises in carbon tax. The financial projections in the EU 'stability programme update' indicate that carbon tax will double this December - for everyone who is not a farmer.

And as we all already pay water tax through metering with the last 3 years unlike the rest of the country

Every commercial premises in the country pays water charges. A farm is a commercial premises -although I believe that there is an allowance of uncharged water for domestic use.

then i would expect an exemption to apply up to the level of water charges already paid by farmers:D

Farmers have an effective lobby group so they don't need a rationale to obtain special treatment.

5live

We will exempt farm diesel from further increases in the carbon tax.

Perhaps my logic is flawed but the above quote, to me anyway, implies that farmers already pay carbon tax as unless you already pay the tax you cannot be liable for an increase, only an imposition. And as i posted that farmers already pay carbon tax, i thank you for your support of my statement.;)

Now seeing that this post is turning away from septic tank charge, may i suggest we return to the actual thread we are posting in as there are other threads available for farmer bashing?

dynamick

You are arguing against a claim I never made. Yes farmers pay carbon tax on farm diesel at4.7c/l

I said that farmers would be exempted fom carbon tax rises on farm diesel.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=72950800#post72950800

I expect that farmers will also be exempted from septic tank inspection charges because they have a more effective lobby group than any other group of people with septic tanks.

5live

dynamick wrote: »

You are arguing against a claim I never made. Yes farmers pay carbon tax on farm diesel at4.7c/l

I said that farmers would be exempted fom carbon tax rises on farm diesel.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=72950800#post72950800

I expect that farmers will also be exempted from septic tank inspection charges because they have a more effective lobby group than any other group of people with septic tanks.

Apologies. I misread your post:o

If agriculture is the financial nirvana everyone outside agriculture seems to think it is, then i invite them cordially to join in, rent land, buy stock, plant crops and watch your financial cares float away in a tidal wave of cash:rolleyes:. But nobody does and i cant figure out why....:p

dynamick

Again you're arguing a claim I didn't make. Farming is clearly a very poor way of making a living. Farm land sells for a ridiculously large multiple of the profit that can be made from it. Many farmers have to work second jobs and the total net profits earned from farming (the last time I looked) were roughly equivalent to the total amount of grant aid given to farmers. In other words, farming in Ireland is utterly dependent on state aid and people who farm do so for non-monetary reasons.