Discovery Motions no longer in Master's Court

FreudianSlippers · 23-06-2011 10:50am #1

HIGH COURT NOTICES

Notices of Motion seeking an order for discovery

With immediate effect Notices of Motion issued in the Central Office of the High Court seeking an order for discovery will be allocated return dates before the High Court on Mondays in term or, in the case of Family Law matters, on Fridays in term.

I found this notice yesterday (and today) quite interesting. From asking around a bit, it doesn't seem like anyone actually saw this coming or knew this would be happening.

Does anyone have an idea of what the rationale behind this move is? Is it a long-term change (perhaps forever?)?

Tom Young · 23-06-2011 11:14am

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I found this notice yesterday (and today) quite interesting. From asking around a bit, it doesn't seem like anyone actually saw this coming or knew this would be happening.

Does anyone have an idea of what the rationale behind this move is? Is it a long-term change (perhaps forever?)?

It might be a move towards the UK model where Discovery is just agreed as opposed to Ordered. A lot of Discovery is wasted cost. That's my view on it.

Tom

shaneybaby · 23-06-2011 11:17am

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I found this notice yesterday (and today) quite interesting. From asking around a bit, it doesn't seem like anyone actually saw this coming or knew this would be happening.

Does anyone have an idea of what the rationale behind this move is? Is it a long-term change (perhaps forever?)?

Thanks for this, where is it posted on the courts website? (just before i send it round the firm!)

(ps doesn't seem to be in the notices section http://www.courts.ie/courts.ie/library3.nsf/pagecurrent/1A8CBAA6088D524080256DA6004CA6FD?opendocument&l=en)

Tom Young · 23-06-2011 11:21am

Here: http://www.courts.ie/legaldiary.nsf/0/ced048200267a482802578b6005241a2/$FILE/Legal Diary Part 1 220611.pdf

shaneybaby · 23-06-2011 11:25am

Tom Young wrote: »

Here: http://www.courts.ie/legaldiary.nsf/0/ced048200267a482802578b6005241a2/$FILE/Legal Diary Part 1 220611.pdf

Brilliant lads, a lump of brownie points for me!!

When it says that "order for discovery will be allocated return dates
before the High Court on Mondays" which court are they talking about? Chancery or common law motions? (presumably the motions one but just out of curiosity:)

FreudianSlippers · 23-06-2011 12:14pm

Tom Young wrote: »

It might be a move towards the UK model where Discovery is just agreed as opposed to Ordered. A lot of Discovery is wasted cost. That's my view on it.

Tom

I agree to an extent. IIRC the UK system is very similar to the US system which is much more straightforward and swift.
But I don't necessarily agree with removing this power from the Master. If you're not happy with the Order now you'll have to appeal to the Supreme Court!

shaneybaby wrote: »

Brilliant lads, a lump of brownie points for me!!

When it says that "order for discovery will be allocated return dates
before the High Court on Mondays" which court are they talking about? Chancery or common law motions? (presumably the motions one but just out of curiosity:)

AFAIK Common Law Motion list.

Tom Young · 23-06-2011 12:35pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I agree to an extent. IIRC the UK system is very similar to the US system which is much more straightforward and swift.
But I don't necessarily agree with removing this power from the Master. If you're not happy with the Order now you'll have to appeal to the Supreme Court!

Not if the reason for the decision is the correct one and the judge/s deciding the cases do so on the correct basis.

I think the Discovery motion list/s is/are about to become places where signals will be sent.

Signal 1. Agree discovery and pony up what litigants are entitled to;

Signal 2. Vexatious/Fishing trips will no longer be tolerated (the Master used to get some wrong but most of them right); and

Signal 3. Reduce costs of litigation and speed up matters.

Tom

PS: Having a pit bull on the Discovery list will be .... interesting. (I say discovery list - I mean discovery motions within the Common Law lists or whatever form they will take)

Our man in Havana · 23-06-2011 1:30pm

It will give the master more time to deal with all the repo house applications.

Seriously, it should speed things up as if the master refused discovery you had to go the High Court anyways. Just cutting out the middle man.

Tom Young · 23-06-2011 1:52pm

It might also be the case that a lay litigant list (before the Master) might be planned to review cases and papers before sending them before a judge, i.e., business filtering process.

23-06-2011 2:01pm

This morning he made it quite clear he had asked for the discovery to be taken away from his list.

Tom Young · 23-06-2011 2:03pm

Deleted User wrote: »

This morning he made it quite clear he had asked for the discovery to be taken away from his list.

So would you if it had been just removed ...

23-06-2011 2:10pm

Tom Young wrote: »

So would you if it had been just removed ...

A point made to me at the time. However on this occasion I actually believe the official story.

dermot_sheehan · 23-06-2011 3:49pm

As far as I know he was sitting till 5 many days dealing with the Special Summonses and Summary judgements so it's why it was removed.

The motion would be returnable before the list depending on what claim is sought in the plenary summons in the same way other interlocutory applications that have to be made intially to a judge are dealt with.

So for example a discovery motion in a claims for damages would be returnable before the non-jury list. A discovery motion in a claim for specific performance, rescission, a declaration or an injunction would be returnable before the Chancery list. Discovery in a claim under the Family Law Acts would be returnable before the Family List.

drkpower · 23-06-2011 3:56pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Does anyone have an idea of what the rationale behind this move is?

Because the Master doesnt have a clue what he is doing when it comes to Discovery....?!;)

Well maybe not bad, but personally I am delighted. Many a wasted (refused) Discovery application in front of him that had to be appealed through the HC (invariably successfullly). Waste of time, waste of money.

To get through the Master and the HC can add over a year to the process which is bad for everyone.

FreudianSlippers · 24-06-2011 9:44am

drkpower wrote: »

Because the Master doesnt have a clue what he is doing when it comes to Discovery....?!;)

I certainly should have said beyond the obvious reasons, but it certainly has taken them a significant amount of time to catch on.

gaer · 20-08-2011 6:50pm

hi, when l checked my case in courts.is, l come cross abb my case was in comm law court for "motion on notice" and result is "Motion Strike Out,Costs"
anyone explain what these mean "Motion Strike Out,Costs" ?
thanks

johnnyskeleton · 20-08-2011 8:45pm

gaer wrote: »

hi, when l checked my case in courts.is, l come cross abb my case was in comm law court for "motion on notice" and result is "Motion Strike Out,Costs"
anyone explain what these mean "Motion Strike Out,Costs" ?
thanks

Best speak to your solicitor.

gaer · 21-08-2011 10:56am

l have useless solisitor ,need to call 100 times to reach him and ask a question,

johnnyskeleton · 21-08-2011 3:36pm

gaer wrote: »

l have useless solisitor ,need to call 100 times to reach him and ask a question,

Sorry to hear that. Maybe look into getting another solicitor and have the file transferred over. If you suspect that something was done incorrectly, that might not be a bad idea.

But getting the answers on the internet is certainly a very bad idea.

flowers345 · 21-02-2014 4:36pm

So how do you make notice of motion for an order for discovery if you do it yourself? Has anyone got a link to an example? or a form?

nuac · 21-02-2014 6:18pm

Look, litigation is becoming more complicated by the year.

Get a solicitor

Pro Hoc Vice · 21-02-2014 6:28pm

flowers345 wrote: »

So how do you make notice of motion for an order for discovery if you do it yourself? Has anyone got a link to an example? or a form?

Check the rules of court.

lawfilly · 21-02-2014 9:07pm

Get a solicitor! You are going to have ground the Notice of Motion seeking discovery on affidavit which will have to be sworn by a solicitor/ Commissioner for oaths.

Its not really something you can do yourself.

Pro Hoc Vice · 21-02-2014 11:34pm

lawfilly wrote: »

Get a solicitor! You are going to have ground the Notice of Motion seeking discovery on affidavit which will have to be sworn by a solicitor/ Commissioner for oaths.

Its not really something you can do yourself.

Yes it is, a plaintiff can swear the affidavit but it must be witnessed by a solicitor or Commissioner.

blueythebear · 22-02-2014 12:54am

infosys wrote: »

Yes it is, a plaintiff can swear the affidavit but it must be witnessed by a solicitor or Commissioner.

A litigant in person can swear the affidavit grounding the motion. There's no problem there but they face quite the hurdle on a Monday morning with a Judge that has a hundred or so matters to deal with and the lay litigant rocks up with a simple enough motion for discovery which ends up taking an hour to deal with because the lay litigant doesn't know what they're doing and does not know how to confine themselves to relevant information only.

I don't want to generalise about all litigants in person but I have never seen one that has a clue what they're doing. They only serve to waste court time as far as I have seen.

Point is, discovery motions can be complex. On the face of it, they often seem quite simple but very often they are far from simple. Such motions are best left to the professionals.

Pro Hoc Vice · 22-02-2014 10:35am

blueythebear wrote: »

A litigant in person can swear the affidavit grounding the motion. There's no problem there but they face quite the hurdle on a Monday morning with a Judge that has a hundred or so matters to deal with and the lay litigant rocks up with a simple enough motion for discovery which ends up taking an hour to deal with because the lay litigant doesn't know what they're doing and does not know how to confine themselves to relevant information only.

I don't want to generalise about all litigants in person but I have never seen one that has a clue what they're doing. They only serve to waste court time as far as I have seen.

Point is, discovery motions can be complex. On the face of it, they often seem quite simple but very often they are far from simple. Such motions are best left to the professionals.

I never said otherwise, I simply corrected an assertion that a lay litigant could not do a discovery application because he could not swear an affidavit.

I'm fully aware of the issues caused by many lay litigants. But I have seen 1 lay litigant do a very good job once but only once. While I totally agree that the practice of law is best left to professionals, never the less a person has a right under the Constitution and the convention to represent themselves. I do not understand why a person would do so as its a bad idea on so many levels.

flowers345 · 22-02-2014 1:18pm

My solicitor does not do it and I did instruct him to ask for discovery via motion etc.
So any help is welcome. I need to make the affidavit, get it stamped, and what is the next step?
Do I take the affidavit to court on the day and ask the judge for a delay in order to get the discovery on track?

Pro Hoc Vice · 22-02-2014 1:39pm

flowers345 wrote: »

My solicitor does not do it and I did instruct him to ask for discovery via motion etc.
So any help is welcome. I need to make the affidavit, get it stamped, and what is the next step?
Do I take the affidavit to court on the day and ask the judge for a delay in order to get the discovery on track?

So you have a solicitor, what do you mean "does not do it" if you have a dog why bark yourself. Has your solicitor advised against discovery. Losing a High Vourt discovery application could lead to a costs order running into thousands against the losing side.

Discovery is a very complex area of law, there are very important procedural steps to be taken, there are whole areas of documents that are not discoverable.

No one on this site can give you advice as 1 its against the rules and 2 they don't want to get sued for giving incorrect information.

BTW you don't initially request discovery by motion.

flowers345 · 22-02-2014 2:47pm

He did not advise against it. He just does not want to do it. So now I am looking to do it myself. I am not looking for advise, I am looking for directions towards paperwork on websites that I can use as an example.

Pro Hoc Vice · 22-02-2014 2:50pm

flowers345 wrote: »

He did not advise against it. He just does not want to do it. So now I am looking to do it myself. I am not looking for advise, I am looking for directions towards paperwork on websites that I can use as an example.

You should change solicitors, seriously if a solicitor is not willing to do work (unless he is saying its not needed) then you should move. I for one do not believe any solicitor has just said he does not want to do discovery.

flowers345 · 22-02-2014 3:41pm

Info I got this solicitor thinking he was good with paperwork but he also is indeed stubborn. It is definitly needed as the side that has the proof made a story so fantastic that it completely goes in against every aspect of what happened. In other words I am loosing this one if I do NOT get any discovery for any (fabricated) evidence to back up their concoction out of the way now.
I found this http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1999/en/si/0285.html but the examples on it are paperwork from a judge? not too relevant for what I seek to do?

Pro Hoc Vice · 22-02-2014 4:11pm

flowers345 wrote: »

Info I got this solicitor thinking he was good with paperwork but he also is indeed stubborn. It is definitly needed as the side that has the proof made a story so fantastic that it completely goes in against every aspect of what happened. In other words I am loosing this one if I do NOT get any discovery for any (fabricated) evidence to back up their concoction out of the way now.
I found this http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1999/en/si/0285.html but the examples on it are paperwork from a judge? not too relevant for what I seek to do?

All your solicitor has to do is send a brief to counsel he will draft all the necessary papers and will when time comes make the relevant application on his feet. So the best advice your going to get here is tell the solicitor to brief counsel or hand file to someone who will do the job.

Also remember discovery can not be a fishing expedition.

It's a DC case, really well first of all all the rules changed early Feb, secondly depending on the type of case Counsel may be willing to act.

http://www.courts.ie/Courts.ie/library3.nsf/(WebFiles)/5B98B2B4F09E28EC80257C6F003B5347/$FILE/S.I.%20No.%2017%20of%202014%20-%20District%20Court%20(Civil%20Procedure)%20Rules%202014.pdf

flowers345 · 22-02-2014 7:44pm

Thank you.

YellowFeather · 23-02-2014 10:28am

Have you already sought voluntary discovery? A letter to the other side asking for x, y and z detailing your reasons for requiring this information. Only if they refuse and you feel it's unreasonable should you go down the motion route.

The Notice of Motion should set out what you want to be ordered from the court. The Affidavit should set out why - the background. There are templates available on courts.ie.

flowers345 · 25-02-2014 11:04am

Letter was send and laughed at by the other side.

gozunda · 27-02-2014 12:45am

"Quote:
HIGH COURT NOTICES

Notices of Motion seeking an order for discovery

With immediate effect Notices of Motion issued in the Central Office of the High Court seeking an order for discovery will be allocated return dates before the High Court on Mondays in term or, in the case of Family Law matters, on Fridays in term." I found this notice yesterday (and today) quite interesting. From asking around a bit, it doesn't seem like anyone actually saw this coming or knew this would be happening. Does anyone have an idea of what the rationale behind this move is? Is it a long-term change (perhaps forever?)"

Quote above of first post in thread.

For pure interest - how have those involved in orders for discovery found the change in the system?

Is it better now or worse than how discovery was handled 3 years ago?
Did the changes make any significant difference?

gozunda · 03-03-2014 2:02am

gozunda wrote: »

"Quote:
HIGH COURT NOTICES

Notices of Motion seeking an order for discovery

With immediate effect Notices of Motion issued in the Central Office of the High Court seeking an order for discovery will be allocated return dates before the High Court on Mondays in term or, in the case of Family Law matters, on Fridays in term." I found this notice yesterday (and today) quite interesting. From asking around a bit, it doesn't seem like anyone actually saw this coming or knew this would be happening. Does anyone have an idea of what the rationale behind this move is? Is it a long-term change (perhaps forever?)"

Quote above of first post in thread.

... have any involved in orders for discovery found the change in the system?

Is it better now or worse than how discovery was handled 3 years ago?
Did the changes make any significant difference?

Any takers on how things have improved since?

Discovery Motions no longer in Master's Court

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