Freedom of Expression: the Orange Order

paky

Article 40.6.1 of the Irish Constitution, upholds the right of individuals to freely express themselves. However this right is confined to the best interests of public order and morality. Now, assuming that the North of Ireland has similar laws with regards to Freedom of Expression as Ireland does, (it been a common law country), should the Orange Order be allowed march or should restrictions be placed on where they march, since they are responsible for antangonising the Nationaist community and undermining public order every summer in the North of Ireland?

40.6.1° The State guarantees liberty for the exercise of the following rights, subject to public order and morality:
i. The right of the citizens to express freely their convictions and opinions.
The education of public opinion being, however, a matter of such grave import to the common good, the State shall endeavour to ensure that organs of public opinion, such as the radio, the press, the cinema, while preserving their rightful liberty of expression, including criticism of Government policy, shall not be used to undermine public order or morality or the authority of the State.
The publication or utterance of blasphemous, seditious, or indecent matter is an offence which shall be punishable in accordance with law.
ii. The right of the citizens to assemble peaceably and without arms.
Provision may be made by law to prevent or control meetings which are determined in accordance with law to be calculated to cause a breach of the peace or to be a danger or nuisance to the general public and to prevent or control meetings in the vicinity of either House of the Oireachtas.

Wolfe Tone

Restrictions are in place...

Wolfe Tone

Restrictions are in place...

Our man in Havana

They have as much right as one else to march and express themselves. They don't stop those nationalists from having their paddys day march do they?

coylemj

paky wrote: »

Article 40.6.1 of the Irish Constitution, upholds the right of individuals to freely express themselves. However this right is confined to the best interests of public order and morality. Now, assuming that the North of Ireland has similar laws with regards to Freedom of Expression as Ireland does, (it been a common law country).....

Not relevant to the situation in Northern Ireland which, whether you like it or not is a seperate country so there's no point in quoting Bunreacht na hEireann.

paky wrote: »

....should the Orange Order be allowed march or should restrictions be placed on where they march, since they are responsible for antangonising the Nationaist community and undermining public order every summer in the North of Ireland?

Haven't you sat in front of a TV during the month of July at any stage in the past 20 years and seen the RUC PSNI block the progress of the Portadown Orange Order as they attempt to march back to town via the Garvahy Road?

What you are asking for already happens in Portadown and in other parts of NI where parades are rerouted or banned for the reasons you outline.

http://www.paradescommission.org/

However in the interests of balance it should be said that the nationalists aren't exactly squeaky clean when it comes to marches which have the potential to antagonise the other community.

paky

Our man in Havana wrote: »

They have as much right as one else to march and express themselves. They don't stop those nationalists from having their paddys day march do they?

paddys day isnt a nationalist celebration. its a christian celebration which is celebrated by both communities. even the british army celebrates it and is no comparison to the 12th.

and just to add to that, arent flags banned from the city centre of belfast during paddys day celebratons? it wasnt too long ago that a sinn fein mayor carried a tricolour at the paddys day parade in the north which caused uproar. havent seen any restrictions on flags during the 12th.

coylemj

paky wrote: »

paddys day isnt a nationalist celebration. its a christian celebration which is celebrated by both communities.

It is a day which has been hijacked by the nationalist community in NI to parade their republicanism, it is not marked by comparable pageantry by anyone from the Protestant community and you know this well.

If it isnt a nationalist celebration, why does every Paddys Day parade in NI involve dozens of tricolours and not one Union Jack?

I have been in NI during a Paddy Day w/e, the Protestant community treats it the way the nationalists treat the 12th, it's a day off work that they otherwise ignore. In small towns around NI it is marked by excessive drinking and general rowdiness on the part of nationalist youths.

Of course it must be said that the 12th isn't exactly a temperance rally either and anyone wandering out on the streets on the night of the 12th in places like Ballymena wearing a Celtic jersey would need their head examined - if it was still attached to their body the next day.

paky wrote: »

even the british army celebrates it and is no comparison to the 12th.

Misleading comparison.

The Irish Guards in Britain celebrate Paddys Day and they put shamrock on the collar of the regimental mascot which is an Irish Wolfhound, there is no similar British Army ceremony in NI and if there is, it's within the walls of army barracks, not up and down the streets of the towns and cities.

Our man in Havana

I couldn't give a toss what SF do.

Dandelion6

paky wrote: »

Now, assuming that the North of Ireland has similar laws with regards to Freedom of Expression as Ireland does, (it been a common law country)

Pedantic point: the word is "being", not "been". Sorry but that really annoys me.

On the substantive issue, common law and constitutional law are two different things. The North is not subject to a written constitution and there is no such guarantee in its laws. It is however subject to Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights, which allows for fairly significant public order-type restrictions on freedom of expression.

Personally I don't think simply antagonising people is a good enough reason not to allow a group to march. If it could be shown that there was a major risk of serious harm which the police would be powerless to prevent, I think that could justify restrictions (eg at the moment I wouldn't have a problem with preventing a loyalist march through the Short Strand). I'm not convinced that's necessarily the case for every Orange Order march through a nationalist area, though.

dermot_sheehan

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/2/contents

westies4ever

Our man in Havana wrote: »

They have as much right as one else to march and express themselves. They don't stop those nationalists from having their paddys day march do they?

nationalists have two parading days - paddys day and 15th august.

i'm from the north and lived there til i was 25 years old. every friday night during 'marching season' which lasts for around 3 months, they march in my home town. hundreds of them come in on buses from surrounding areas.

much of the town is closed to traffic which is a pain for starters. as well as that, the vast majority are completely pissed, they have paramilitary flags hanging in the windows of the buses. stalls are set up selling loyalist paramilitary souveneirs. they will happily piss in your front garden and abuse you if you object.

the whole atmosphere is very tense with a nice little undercurrent of violence. its generally best to stay in the house til its over. it lasts from around 7pm til 11 or 12.

yeah thats some expression of culture alright.

Zambia

westies4ever wrote: »

the whole atmosphere is very tense with a nice little undercurrent of violence. its generally best to stay in the house til its over. it lasts from around 7pm til 11 or 12.

Having been through all of this as well I still think they should be allowed March in Ireland.

1: ) The law says they can.

2: ) Might open their eyes to the world outside the tight loyalist suburbs they live in.