Germany is now on our side. So how does one go about isolating the French?

hatrickpatrick

It would appear that the French are now the sole stumbling block to our 1% interest rate cut.
So how do we go about isolating them in the EU so that they would cave?

Play the Thierry Henry card?

ei.sdraob

send them cheese

Icepick

Ireland still spends ridiculous money on welfare and public sector, so the French should wait until that's sorted.

hatrickpatrick

Icepick wrote: »

Ireland still spends ridiculous money on welfare and public sector, so the French should wait until that's sorted.

TROLOLOLOLO
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state#Welfare_expenditure

Welfare spending % of GDP, omitting education:
France: 28.5%
Ireland: 13.8%

Public sector pay as a percentage of GDP:
France: 13.7%
Ireland: 11%

http://www.sbpost.ie/newsfeatures/growing-sense-its-a-question-of-how-not-if-greeks-default-56977.html
http://www.seminar.wne.uw.edu.pl/uploads/Main/QR_fixed_effect.pdf - footnote page 2

.........

oppenheimer1

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

TROLOLOLOLO
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state#Welfare_expenditure

Welfare spending % of GDP, omitting education:
France: 28.5%
Ireland: 13.8%

Public sector pay as a percentage of GDP:
France: 13.7%
Ireland: 11%

http://www.sbpost.ie/newsfeatures/growing-sense-its-a-question-of-how-not-if-greeks-default-56977.html
http://www.seminar.wne.uw.edu.pl/uploads/Main/QR_fixed_effect.pdf - footnote page 2

.........

What the French spend is irrelevant, they're not looking for a bailout.

hatrickpatrick

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

What the French spend is irrelevant, they're not looking for a bailout.

Nor are their people being asked to bail out failed gamblers as we are.
Nor have we ever demanded that their people vote again on something because we didn't like their decision.

The arrogance of Sarkozy's government sickens me. I honestly believe they envisage themselves as the emporers of Europe. Caesar Nicholas & co.

We have both signed up for his power grab (Lisbon) and are paying for some of his banks' mistakes (bondholders). They spend more on PS pay and on Welfare than we do, and their corporate tax is, in effect, actually LOWER than ours.

The "we rule this continent" bubble of that government has to end sometime.

Dale Parish

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

TROLOLOLOLO
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state#Welfare_expenditure

Welfare spending % of GDP, omitting education:
France: 28.5%
Ireland: 13.8%



.........

Wow, your source from 2001 is really helpful 10 years later.
More than two-thirds of Ireland's income spent on the "welfare". There's the problem.
In before "John has been working for 20 years" rebuttal.
Nope, there aren't 450,000 jobs out there. But there are 450,000 business opportunities.

oppenheimer1

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Nor are their people being asked to bail out failed gamblers as we are.
Nor have we ever demanded that their people vote again on something because we didn't like their decision.

The arrogance of Sarkozy's government sickens me. I honestly believe they envisage themselves as the emporers of Europe. Caesar Nicholas & co.

We have both signed up for his power grab (Lisbon) and are paying for some of his banks' mistakes (bondholders). They spend more on PS pay and on Welfare than we do, and their corporate tax is, in effect, actually LOWER than ours.

The "we rule this continent" bubble of that government has to end sometime.

I think you're missing the point. The French can spend and tax themselves whatever way they like because they have their own house in order (relatively speaking). They can dictate terms to us because we need the cash. The fact they're behaving in a "do as I say not as I do" manner is not hypocritical.

The only thing they can be accused of is not displaying enough solidarity.

InigoMontoya

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Germany is now on our side. So how does one go about isolating the French?

Through Belgium! :pac:

Aard

You've got to realise that Sarkozy is just showboating. "La France profonde" (middle France) lap it up. They truly believe that France is the best country in the whole world. It's a two speed system here: one price for the locals, one for the foreigners. He's been going on about a (nother) property tax for non-residents. 25% of the cadastral value of the house. He was never gonna go through with it though: it was just crumbs for his followers to show them how much he looks after the ordinary daycent Frenchman. It got shot down today. Same with the Irish corporate tax thing. He's just getting the conservative UMP supporters riled up about how France is the sow that the PIGS are sucking dry. The Irish have got low tax -- boo! we can't compete. He knows though that most French SMEs don't pay a lot of tax through a system of exemptions and credits. He'll eventually forget about the corp tax tirade once something more important comes along -- the presidentials.

hatrickpatrick

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I think you're missing the point. The French can spend and tax themselves whatever way they like because they have their own house in order (relatively speaking). They can dictate terms to us because we need the cash. The fact they're behaving in a "do as I say not as I do" manner is not hypocritical.

The only thing they can be accused of is not displaying enough solidarity.

It's more than that, it's the fact that we are sacrificing ourselves to save them, and all they do is continually stab us in the back.

We COULD refuse to bail out gamblers and allow their idiotic bondholders to lose their entire investment, but we're not. They owe us a bit of respect for that, it's their banks we're saving.

Scofflaw

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It's more than that, it's the fact that we are sacrificing ourselves to save them, and all they do is continually stab us in the back.

We COULD refuse to bail out gamblers and allow their idiotic bondholders to lose their entire investment, but we're not. They owe us a bit of respect for that, it's their banks we're saving.

Leaving aside the usual point about that still needing proof, which might be required to convince the French public - how grateful is anyone to see their tax money being used to save banks? Even we don't view it as a good use of French taxpayers' money - how do the French taxpayers view it?

cordially,
Scofflaw

femur61

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The arrogance of Sarkozy's government sickens me. I honestly believe they envisage themselves as the emporers of Europe.

I have to agree somewhat with Sarkosy, weren't we the nation not so long ago thought we could go it alone! Weren't we the arrogant ones not just the ministers in Europe who couldn't be bothered turning up for meetings and portraying an attitude that they need to stay in 5 star accomation (with their wives).

spider guardian

We could of course simply lance the entire deficit, bringing state expenditure down to what it should be. Then we would have no need to ask France et al to fund our oversized state. But our institutions are too precious! Sacre bleu, they must be funded by any means possible!

loldog

Rejecting the Lisbon Treaty was not "going it alone". It was not a vote on EU membership, though many Irish politicians were happy to portray it that way.

.

Icepick

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

TROLOLOLOLO
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state#Welfare_expenditure

Welfare spending % of GDP, omitting education:
France: 28.5%
Ireland: 13.8%

Public sector pay as a percentage of GDP:
France: 13.7%
Ireland: 11%

http://www.sbpost.ie/newsfeatures/growing-sense-its-a-question-of-how-not-if-greeks-default-56977.html
http://www.seminar.wne.uw.edu.pl/uploads/Main/QR_fixed_effect.pdf - footnote page 2

.........

Last time I checked, they weren't seeking a bailout.
And using 10-year old data is pointless.

matthew8

Germany does not support an interest rate cut, contrary to popular belief. What they support would save us 100 million. Incidentally, Timothy Geithner (good friend of Obama and Goldman Sachs, appointed by Obama) vetoed 20 billion of unsecured bondholder burning by Ireland, Goldman Sachs being one of the bondholders I believe so he definitely has a vested interest there. That 20 billion would pay the interest for 40 years yet we still go wild for Obama with "is feidir linn".

Dannyboy83

Scofflaw wrote: »

Even we don't view it as a good use of French taxpayers' money - how do the French taxpayers view it?

LOL, precisely.

feicim

it is a bit rich of the irish to be asking for an interest rate cut and raising tax from the general population - without raising the corporate rate.

I don't think a rate rise of 1 or 2 percent will make that much difference.
Its not like the rate would be doubled or anything...

It would bring in more revenue (less of a burden on the Irish citizens) and allow us an interest rate reduction from our new (economic) colonial overlords.

Pretty stupid/cowardly of the government not to at least consider a small raise....

RichardAnd

feicim wrote: »

it is a bit rich of the irish to be asking for an interest rate cut and raising tax from the general population - without raising the corporate rate.

I don't think a rate rise of 1 or 2 percent will make that much difference.
Its not like the rate would be doubled or anything...

It would bring in more revenue (less of a burden on the Irish citizens) and allow us an interest rate reduction from our new (economic) colonial overlords.

Pretty stupid/cowardly of the government not to at least consider a small raise....

1 or 2 % would not be much no but even .1% of an increase would show that Ireland is willing to move on this corner stone of investment here. If the CT rate is changes it sould only be to reduce it. Besides, the whole thing is blown up as we've increased taxes across the board and introduced new ones so it's not as if Ireland hasn't tried to raise mroe taxes. The issue of CT has just been jumped on by French politicians as a form of populism for their electorate and as such, it's been wound up into a far, far bigger issue than it really is.

If I was in charge of this country, the CT rate would be 0% but then again, if I was in charge we wouldn't be spending 50 odd billion a year.

feicim

RichardAnd wrote: »

1 or 2 % would not be much no but even .1% of an increase would show that Ireland is willing to move on this corner stone of investment here. If the CT rate is changes it sould only be to reduce it.

If I was in charge of this country, the CT rate would be 0% but then again, if I was in charge we wouldn't be spending 50 odd billion a year.

The low corporate tax rate is only a part of the package of why foreign companies located here - its not the only reason. If it was the only reason - then I would agree - cut the rate to 0%.

But... it's not - so raising it by a percent or two is not going to have all the multinationals upping stakes and moving.

RichardAnd

feicim wrote: »

The low corporate tax rate is only a part of the package of why foreign companies located here - its not the only reason. If it was the only reason - then I would agree - cut the rate to 0%.

But... it's not - so raising it by a percent or two is not going to have all the multinationals upping stakes and moving.

Raising it might not cause anyone to leave but it might make them nervous about staying for the simple reason that if we raise it a little now, we might do so again in the near future. Asides from this, even with other factors, the low tax rate is an attractive perk to doing buisness here so why lessen that advantage at all?

Welease

RichardAnd wrote: »

Raising it might not cause anyone to leave but it might make them nervous about staying for the simple reason that if we raise it a little now, we might do so again in the near future. Asides from this, even with other factors, the low tax rate is an attractive perk to doing buisness here so why lessen that advantage at all?

The reverse is also true.. Foreign companies want stability.. While offering to lower or remove Corp Tax could be viewed as a way to increase inward investment, it also adds a large element of uncertainty as to it's future rate as we have shown it can and will be moved as political/economic winds dictate.

Aard

The effective (after deductions and credits and whatnot) corp tax rate for Ireland is average in the EU: http://www.iiea.com/blogosphere/effective-eu-corporate-tax-rates It's higher than for example France, Denmark, and Belgium.

We want stability for business, especially foreign ones. It mightn't sound all nice and pretty, but many businesses desire to locate here is based in large part on our tax laws, including the tax on profits. Half of one percent mightn't sound like much to you or me, but when your profits are in the tens of millions, it's big money. You'd have to ensure that the extra tax raised by a higher rate was more than the amount you lose due to companies leaving or not setting up in the first place.

For example: Between 2009 and 2010, corp tax receipts fell by 15.3% to €3,210m. If you had taxed profits at 13% rather than 12.5%, you'd have made an extra €128m. 13.5% would be €256m and so on. It looks like a lot but with the huge deficit we have, it's a drop in the bucket. And, this may be somewhat subjective, but the ill-sentiment felt by businesses would not be worth that. All it would take is Intel to get pissed off, and not only are we back to square one, but we're worse off than when we started.