Peig

who the fug

Just to satisfy my idle curiosity, who owns the copyright on Peig, and how did get selected for the curriculum

CDfm

I would love to know too.

She has descendents I think and

This work offers previously unpublished stories by Peig Sayers that the State censored from the Irish public. Severely ’edited’ by the cultural powers that formed and built the new Irish state, "Peig" was a compulsory text on the Irish Leaving Certificate exams for generations of schoolgoers. But there was a lot more to "Peig" than tales of poverty and hardship - in this selection of previously unpublished stories, a new, earthier, funnier and more dramatic storyteller emerges.

http://www.irishbooksdirect.ie/language-culture/language-culture/peig-sayers-labharfad-le-cach--i-will-speak-to-you-all

There may even be Peig scandal :eek:

Fuinseog

who the fug wrote: »

Just to satisfy my idle curiosity, who owns the copyright on Peig, and how did get selected for the curriculum

Peig has not really been studied for twenty years yet critics of the language still harp on about it.

it was slightly censored as in deed was an tOileanach, i.e sex an drinking was played down.

Peig as in line with the thinking of the time all over Europe, and represented the ideal Irish person catholic, Irish speaking and impoverished (content although we were poor till sells well, just look at Angels Ashes).

who the fug

I did not start the thread to have a go at the book, was just curious.

CDfm

who the fug wrote: »

I did not start the thread to have a go at the book, was just curious.

Its a great topic though.

Enkidu

Basically, at the time Munster Irish was considered the best form of the Irish language since it preserved more of the grammar of the old Bardic Standard than any other dialect. Also, since people wanted "real Irish", not anything corrupted by English, they wanted monoglot speakers, but also "high Irish" so you needed a Seanchaí. Also there was a trend in Ireland at the time to view poverty as genuine.

Peig was a Munster Irish speaking Seanchaí who lived in poverty, so she ticked every box basically. Personally I would have picked Peadar Ua Laoghaire, but he had the misfortune of being bilingual and highly educated.

Manic Moran

Peig has not really been studied for twenty years yet critics of the language still harp on about it.

I had to read it less than 20 years ago (But not much less). I am not a critic of the language, but I am still traumatised by the mere utterance of the word "Peig," as, probably, are many of my contemporaries. At least the French equivalent, "Le Petit Nicolas" was vaguely amusing. And, thankfully, English gave you a choice, so if you didn't want to have to suffer Jane Austin, you could do something else.

Irish, not so much. We were stuck with Peig.

NTM

Peregrinus

Actually, we weren't stuck with Peig. The curriculum offered a choice of books, or at least it did in the late 1970s, when I was preparing for the Leaving. Peig was the almost invariable choice of every Irish teacher because, from the language point of view, it was much the simplest. But my teacher refused to inflict it on us, so we had something else. (O Conaire, if I recall correctly.)

Sayers died in 1958. Her works would still be in copyright. I'd think the copyright belongs to her descendants.

who the fug

Peregrinus wrote: »

Actually, we weren't stuck with Peig. The curriculum offered a choice of books, or at least it did in the late 1970s, when I was preparing for the Leaving. Peig was the almost invariable choice of every Irish teacher because, from the language point of view, it was much the simplest. But my teacher refused to inflict it on us, so we had something else. (O Conaire, if I recall correctly.)

Sayers died in 1958. Her works would still be in copyright. I'd think the copyright belongs to her descendants.

Was that an honours paper as I can't remember any options on the ordinary paper.

When did they take it off the curriculum

CDfm

Peregrinus wrote: »

Sayers died in 1958. Her works would still be in copyright. I'd think the copyright belongs to her descendants.

Are they in the USA ?

She also had a few relatives as a remember lots of brothers and sisters.

Fuinseog

who the fug wrote: »

Was that an honours paper as I can't remember any options on the ordinary paper.

When did they take it off the curriculum

it would have been honours. I believe it was removed from the curriculum in 1996.
its interesting how dumbed down, sorry student friendly, the subject has since become.

Fuinseog

Manic Moran wrote: »

I had to read it less than 20 years ago (But not much less). I am not a critic of the language, but I am still traumatised by the mere utterance of the word "Peig," as, probably, are many of my contemporaries. At least the French equivalent, "Le Petit Nicolas" was vaguely amusing. And, thankfully, English gave you a choice, so if you didn't want to have to suffer Jane Austin, you could do something else.

Irish, not so much. We were stuck with Peig.

NTM

I do not think you were supposed to enjoy Peig. It was misery literature. when times were hard its readership were appreciative. how does it start again- if I knew how miserable my life would have been...
it kind of sets the tone.

It might be sacrilege, but I am sure Peig is available in the saxon tongue.

An tOileanach is a bit more interesting or disturbing the way the author starts off by saying the first thing he remembers was sucking on his sisters tit.

I did not have a proper education in Irish as I was never made to read Peig.

who the fug

Fuinseog wrote: »

it would have been honours. I believe it was removed from the curriculum in 1996.
its interesting how dumbed down, sorry student friendly, the subject has since become.

Any idea what the book of prose was called that we did for the Inter, some hard core Irish writers in that book

Fuinseog

who the fug wrote: »

Any idea what the book of prose was called that we did for the Inter, some hard core Irish writers in that book

what do you mean by hardcore?
Different schools used different books, but I would imagine you did Dioltas an Madra Rua (author?)or Leite Dhonnacha Pheig (an tSeabhac), m'asal beag Dubh by Sean Phadraic O Conaire.

CDfm

Fuinseog wrote: »

It might be sacrilege, but I am sure Peig is available in the saxon tongue.

I did not have a proper education in Irish as I was never made to read Peig.

Peig herself was bi-lingual and literate and probably a bit of a spoofer which a seanachai should be.

There probably is a lot of unpublished material etc.

This thread probably should be in literature ?

who the fug

Fuinseog wrote: »

what do you mean by hardcore?
Different schools used different books, but I would imagine you did Dioltas an Madra Rua (author?)or Leite Dhonnacha Pheig (an tSeabhac), m'asal beag Dubh by Sean Phadraic O Conaire.

The two pieces that come to mind , was one about the smell of Lavender in a Paris market, and the other a description of a mass in Donegal


Riveting stuff for a 13 year old

P. Breathnach

CDfm wrote: »

Peig herself was bi-lingual and literate and probably a bit of a spoofer which a seanachai should be.

There probably is a lot of unpublished material etc.

There are doubts about Peig being literate. So far as I know, there is nothing extant that is written in her hand. Some people back in that area in those days were literate in English, even though it was a second, school-learnt language, but unable to read or write in their first language.

The books (there is more than one book attributed to her) were actually written by her son Maidhc, but she provided the content. I remember reading somewhere Maidhc's version: "we wrote a book". There was, in fact, too much material for one book, so what many people encountered in school was an editor's selection. Much of the rest of the material went into another book, Beatha Pheig Sayers which is, in my opinion, a nicer and less miserable read.

I think that there are no direct descendants of Peig left in Ireland. Maidhc was the only one in the country in the latter days of her life, and he had no family. I think there are some descendants in the US, around Springfield, Massachusetts, the preferred destination for Blasket Island emigrants.

CDfm

Here is her census form

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002480479/

Interesting that her hubby is listed as "cannot read" and her as read and write.

i have seen this before and the categories seem to be read & write = literate read only = semi literate and cannot read = illiterate

Very clever before tick boxes.

P. Breathnach

CDfm wrote: »

Here is her census form

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002480479/

Interesting that her hubby is listed as "cannot read" and her as read and write.

I think that in those days more women were literate than were men -- a judgement that I base on my own reading of census forms rather than any scholarly study (I am sure that they also exist, but haven't come across them).

i have seen this before and the categories seem to be read & write = literate read only = semi literate and cannot read = illiterate

Very clever before tick boxes.

I'd go along with the idea that the form was intended to allow the sort of interpretation you describe.

But people misrepresented their level of literacy. It's obvious that none of the supposedly-literate members of the household put a pen to the census return form, as the hand is that of the enumerator.

I have seen forms where people who claimed to be literate signed the return with a mark.

CDfm

Well she says she went to school between 4 & 14

At the age of four, Peig discovered the world of literature after visiting her friend, Cáit -Jim, who was already enrolled in school. That very same day, she insisted that her parents allow her to start school that week, and reluctantly they obliged (Peig, pg 15). This was her doorway to learning reading and writing, both in English and in Irish (Peig, pg 35). Books, and thus words, became her greatest treasure. Peig’s educational bliss did not last long. At the age of 14, her family met with difficulties, both financially and with the new daughter-in-law. In order to maintain peace and manageability within the household, Peig’s father decided to send her into the service of a family he knew in Dingle: Séamas and Nell Curran and their two sons.

Education was a skill needed for emigration probably as a domestic servant or shop assistant

Peig stayed with Séamas and Nell for several years, until she fell ill and went back to live with her family. It was at this time that she learned her closest childhood friend, Cáit-Jim, would be moving to America. Cáit-Jim had promised to send her passage fare so that Peig would be able to join her, but advised Peig to go back into service to earn some of the fare herself.

This was avoided thru marriage which was arranged

Once this obligation had been completed, Peig received news from her beloved brother that a match was to be made. She trusted her brother whole-heartedly, and when he advised her to marry this man from the Great Blasket Island, she put her apprehensions and fears of isolated and dangerous island life aside and accepted the proposal without even seeing her future husband (Peig, pg. 151, Reflections, pg x) . This turned out to be one of the wisest decisions she had made, for she fell madly in love with her husband, Peats Guinean, at first sight. Together, they moved back to the island, and celebrated their wedding (though the festivities were dampened by the joint wake of her beautiful niece). Through the course of this marriage, Peig had 10 children, though only 5 survived to adulthood; those that survived later emigrated to America (except for Michael, who later returned).

It would be nice to think her son Michael who took down her stories owned the copywrite.

On balance I think the argument that she could write is convincing and unless a school roll books appeared and she was not in them we need to accept her version.

P. Breathnach

If you google on "Peig Sayers illiterate" you will score a lot of hits, but on looking through the first few pages I don't see anything that has a convincing ring of authority. There are signs of the same few short paragraphs being recycled in many places.

Some assert that she was illiterate in Irish (something I already mentioned as a phenomenon in that place at that time) inviting the inference that she was literate in English. Others make the wider claim that she was illiterate.

But it seems to widely accepted that she did not actually write the books attributed to her: she dictated the content.

It seems to me a reasonable judgement that she learned to write in school, probably in English only. It also seems that she might not have had much occasion to write after her schooldays, so she might have lost the facility (indeed, in her later years, she is reported as saying that she had forgotten much of her English).

I checked the books. None has any copyright notice, but Beatha Pheig Sayers, although written in the first person, is actually credited to Maidhc. My memory decived me in giving Maidhc credit for the book Peig: that seems to have been dictated to Máire ní Chinnéide, who is also credited as editor (I think that really means that she told Máire stuff, and Máire used it to compose prose in Peig's voice).

CDfm

she had 10 kids - she helped them with homework but we can safely say she was not a soccer mom

P. Breathnach

CDfm wrote: »

she had 10 kids - she helped them with homework but we can safely say she was not a soccer mom

Do you know what the terrain was like on the Great Blasket? It was not conducive to soccer.

The school in the island did not operate continuously. I suspect that it was at times difficult to get a teacher willing to work there. In spite of that, the level of literacy in the island was surprisingly high for a community that otherwise had such a primitive life.

The school was finally closed about 1940, when it had six children on the roll, and that was an important point in the decline which led to the island being abandoned ten years later.

Enkidu

CDfm wrote: »

Peig herself was bi-lingual

Has anybody here ever read Peig's English or listened to recordings of it? It's really interesting, she basically translates literally from Irish a large amount of the time, which makes some of her sentences very difficult to understand.

who the fug

Enkidu wrote: »

Has anybody here ever read Peig's English or listened to recordings of it? It's really interesting, she basically translates literally from Irish a large amount of the time, which makes some of her sentences very difficult to understand.

Any online links to this.

Also any recomended reading about the blaskets and Peig.?

P. Breathnach

who the fug wrote: »

...
Also any recomended reading about the blaskets and Peig.?

Good general introductions:
Joan & Ray Stagles. The Blasket Islands.
Muiris MacConghail. The Blaskets: A Kerry Island Library.

Then, if you are so minded, you can tackle some of the books emanating from the island people.

Enkidu

who the fug wrote: »

Any online links to this.

Also any recomended reading about the blaskets and Peig.?

Labharfad le Cách is a book with some recordings by her. One or two are in English. I don't know if there are recordings online, I'll see if I can find some.