4 week trial

LegacyUser · 19-06-2011 10:27pm #1

I was unemployed for the last 10 years until 2 weeks ago, i have started a new job on a 4 week trial basis. When i asked the owner what kind of salary would be on offer after the 4 weeks he said he did'nt know but that we would play it by ear. I have been working for the last 2 weeks without pay and have signed off in hope that i will be offered the position (i have ten years experience in the same position) and so far so good. The problem is i am worried that the salary will be very poor and the fact that the boss knows i was unemployed will play a major part in his offer !! I know i am lucky to have found a job i like but their is very little security in it. My partner and i are expecting our first child soon and the pressure is on. Should i suss him out over the next few weeks or just do my job and wait for the offer ??

Mrs OBumble · 19-06-2011 11:36pm

A four week unpaid trial sounds very, very dodgy.

Remember, the probation laws in this country mean you're on trial for the first 12 months of any new job.

I hate to be pessemistic, but I predict that at the end of four weeks, the boss will somehow find a reason to say you're not right for the job, and you'll be unemployed and trying to sign on again with no P45 to back you up.

If that happens, I suggest approaching Citizens Information, who will hopefully get you at least minimum wage for the four weeks.

daheff · 20-06-2011 9:57am

JustMary wrote: »

Remember, the probation laws in this country mean you're on trial for the first 12 months of any new job.

where does it say this?

OP - did you get any kind of contract off the 'employer'?

tenchi-fan · 21-06-2011 3:42am

10 years unemployed? Did I read that right?
just work the 4 weeks but make sure you're applying for a lot of jobs during that time. Your current "job" sounds dead-end but no worse than being unemployed.

not even wrong · 02-07-2011 9:22am

tulipnose wrote: »

I have been working for the last 2 weeks without pay

That's both disgraceful and illegal. You are entitled to at least the legal minimum wage of €8.65 per hour (unless you're on WPP2 or some similar program, and you'd know it if you were).

In your position what I'd do is:

if you don't get kept on at the end of the 4 week "trial" tell him he owes you back wages amounting to €8.65 * 40 * 4 or you'll make a complaint to the labour inspectors
if you do get kept on then your pay must be at least €8.65 per hour

If you are fired for asking for the minimum wage then that is automatically unfair dismissal and you are entitled to damages.

Mrs OBumble · 02-07-2011 10:44am

daheff wrote: »

where does it say this?

It's the effect of the probation laws: you can be let go with no warning any time in the first 13 weeks, and with minimal notice any time in the first 12 months. They don't have to give a reason, and you have no recourse to any unfair dismissals legislation. The effect is a 12-month trial period.

IMHO, this means that unpaid trials are totally wrong. At very least you should be paid minimum wage during any trial.

funky15_2 · 02-07-2011 1:28pm

You have been unemployed for ten years? are you serious?

so you have been getting the dole for that period and your moaning about working a trial period that may lead to a job...

I actually give up and whats worse theres people on here trying to defend you..

one word... pathetic.

not even wrong · 02-07-2011 2:55pm

funky15_2 wrote: »

You have been unemployed for ten years? are you serious?

so you have been getting the dole for that period and your moaning about working a trial period that may lead to a job...

I actually give up and whats worse theres people on here trying to defend you..

one word... pathetic.

If you can't see what's going on here (a scumbag employer is illegally exploiting desperate long-term unemployed people as free labour) then you're pretty stupid.

You would have to be a special kind of evil bastard to prey on people who are so desperate that they'll work for 4 weeks for free just for the possibility of a job at the end of it.

Irish_Elect_Eng · 02-07-2011 6:36pm

not even wrong wrote: »

If you can't see what's going on here (a scumbag employer is illegally exploiting desperate long-term unemployed people as free labour) then you're pretty stupid.

You would have to be a special kind of evil bastard to prey on people who are so desperate that they'll work for 4 weeks for free just for the possibility of a job at the end of it.

That is one way of looking at it.. albeit a negative one.

A more positive way would be to say that an employer has decided to take a chance to see if a long term unemployed person is suitable for a job in his organisation...but is wary of committing to a contract before he know if the person can be productive.....

OP,

If I were you I would drop in on the boss to "touch base" and ask for his feedback on how you are performing so far. Then, provided the conversation gives you hope that there will be work at the end of the trial period, work very hard and find a reason to bump into him each week to get some feedback...if he gives you positive feedback each week it will be hard for him not to offer you work, if you have been genuinely productive.

Best of Luck and I hope that there job is there for you at the end of your trial.

not even wrong · 03-07-2011 8:17am

Irish_Elect_Eng wrote: »

That is one way of looking at it.. albeit a negative one.

A more positive way would be to say that an employer has decided to take a chance to see if a long term unemployed person is suitable for a job in his organisation...but is wary of committing to a contract before he know if the person can be productive.....

You have no idea how Irish employment law works. A new employee can be fired for any reason or none within their first year of employment. ( and in the first 13 weeks, they can be fired with zero notice.) This means that there is no risk to the employer, if someone isn't working out it will be obvious within the first year (if not the first 3 months) and they can be let go without having to go through a formal disciplinary process.

So this four week "unpaid trial" period is a complete scam and an excuse to get free labour -- all employees are already on trial for the first year, no matter whether they're told it or not.

Irish_Elect_Eng · 03-07-2011 11:53am

[/QUOTE]You have no idea how Irish employment law works. A new employee can be fired for any reason or none within their first year of employment. ( and in the first 13 weeks, they can be fired with zero notice.) This means that there is no risk to the employer, if someone isn't working out it will be obvious within the first year (if not the first 3 months) and they can be let go without having to go through a formal disciplinary process.

So this four week "unpaid trial" period is a complete scam and an excuse to get free labour -- all employees are already on trial for the first year, no matter whether they're told it or not.[/Quote]

Typical boards rant, lol.

I am perfectly aware of Irish Employment Law, I need to be as partt of my day to day work :-) I would address the limitations of your posts, but I cant be bothered :-)

I was addressing the OPs post and offering some good advice to him. More productive than your negative rant.

not even wrong · 03-07-2011 12:24pm

Irish_Elect_Eng wrote: »

I am perfectly aware of Irish Employment Law

So why are you talking this rubbish about the employer not wanting to "take a chance" when you are well aware that the employee is already automatically on a probationary period for their first year? Why are you arguing in favour of an employer who is breaking the minimum wage laws?

fat__tony · 03-07-2011 3:47pm

Unemployed for 10 years????

Seriously??

How? Why?

Lux23 · 03-07-2011 4:07pm

I think the fact they are taking steps to get back to work should be applauded rather than the fact they have been out of work so long questioned.

nyarlothothep · 03-07-2011 4:44pm

Lux23 wrote: »

I think the fact they are taking steps to get back to work should be applauded rather than the fact they have been out of work so long questioned.

Some people love to get up on their high horse in order to feel better about themselves or at least feel more secure in their world views and this was a perfect opportunity for certain personality types to do so. Not surprising and hardly unexpected.

funky15_2 · 03-07-2011 8:43pm

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Some people love to get up on their high horse in order to feel better about themselves or at least feel more secure in their world views and this was a perfect opportunity for certain personality types to do so. Not surprising and hardly unexpected.

complete physco babble nonsense there.... wow what a deep thinker! nonsense, lets all get the violin out for someone thats out of work for ten years, ten years!!! thats even during the period of full employment!! l

and lets pat them on the back for complaining about the ordeal of workin a 4 week trial period... pass me the bucket, fast!

Mrs OBumble · 03-07-2011 9:05pm

ALL OF YOU: PLAY NICELY!

Not at all happy to read people being called "stupid" etc.

Please keep re tone civil (as per the charter), the content factual, and the opinion statements clearly labelled as such.

I'm in favour of this forum giving out robust advice (eg the OP with acne offered the public service job thread), but don't believe it should be done rudely.

This is an informal warning 'cos so many have been doing it. Keep it up and the formal warnings will start flowing.

Irish_Elect_Eng · 04-07-2011 12:10am

not even wrong wrote: »

So why are you talking this rubbish about the employer not wanting to "take a chance" when you are well aware that the employee is already automatically on a probationary period for their first year? Why are you arguing in favour of an employer who is breaking the minimum wage laws?

Please readmy previous post.

Irish_Elect_Eng · 04-07-2011 12:11am

JustMary wrote: »

ALL OF YOU: PLAY NICELY!

Not at all happy to read people being called "stupid" etc.

Please keep re tone civil (as per the charter), the content factual, and the opinion statements clearly labelled as such.

I'm in favour of this forum giving out robust advice (eg the OP with acne offered the public service job thread), but don't believe it should be done rudely.

This is an informal warning 'cos so many have been doing it. Keep it up and the formal warnings will start flowing.

Oops....Sorry did not see your warning, End of my posts on this thread.

dixiefly · 12-07-2011 6:35am

This is pretty sickening behaviour. How did you get on in the end? Were you paid for your work & did you get a longer term job?

wiggley · 11-08-2011 11:18pm

This is becoming more and more prevalent.

I've years of retail experience, great cv and glowing references. I'm a mature student looking for part time work and applied to a city centre 'posh' boutique. Had a great interview yesterday and the owner called me this morning, gushing down the phone at how delighted she was to offer me the job as part time shop assistant. She wanted me to start immediately. I asked the wage, and was told €9.50ph. I asked what the Sunday rate was and she asked me what the wage was (LOL, it was like a goofy comedy of going round in circles asking each other what the rate was)... anyway, she conceeded that she didn't know! Then she said she'd like me in for a few days next week for a trial period. Now every single job I've ever worked in has had a trial period. All employers have to cover their asses in case it doesn't work out for whatever reason - fair enough. BUT alarm bells went off - I'd heard a few people recently talking about unpaid trials - so I asked her how much I'd be paid for the trial and she was disgusted with me for asking, she explained that she doesn't pay during trial periods, that she's had plenty of girls do unpaid trials (note - she only has 2 staff, so that suggests she's not kept anyone on after their free trial)! I told her that I wouldn't work for free that if I'm offered a job and asked to turn up at the premises at a specific time to perform the duties for that role then remuneration must be applied. She got into a kerfuffle and basically withdrew the 'job' offer.
Now this was a basic shop job. The same type of job that I did as a teenager, when I had zero experience back then - yet back then I was paid for every single hour I worked and no trial period was required. But now, 16 years later, with tonnes of retail experience under my belt I'm now expected to work for free to prove my worth! Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't interviews the tool for an employer to assess your suitability and capability for the job?!

Stints of free labour = exploitation! Plain and simple! It's immoral, greedy and insulting!

If I hadn't been aware of this new practice, then I wouldn't have thought to question her when she said I'd be on a trial period (as all jobs have trial periods), I would've assumed I would be on the pay roll as soon as I started on my first day! I'd have gone banana's if I'd worked for a few days and later found out that I wasn't being paid for it - regardless of whether or not I was kept on after the trial period!!

I do a lot of voluntary work with a not-for-profit organisation, and I gladly give them my spare time when I can. But I will not work for free for a commercial business, and don't believe that anybody, regardless of how experienced or not they are, and regardless of how long they've been unemployed, should be expected to work for free!
It's especially deplorable that so many of these employers are not telling people that they won't be paid, and these people are working away, not knowing if they're going to be kept on, and more importantly - of they'll be paid for their labour!

Somethings got to be done about this! Trial periods are fine, so long as you're on the pay-roll from the minute you set foot on the premises and perform the duties assigned to your role.

*grrrr

wmpdd3 · 12-08-2011 8:43am

From a legal point of view, are you even insured while doing these 'trials'. I have heard of a few restuarents offering trials for chefs, if they are injured and sue are they an employee or a customer?

wiggley · 12-08-2011 12:51pm

You're right there! Insurance was another concern of mine.

Trials are all well and good, but if a business asks you to perform a trial , then they must be obliged to pay for your time.

I'd be concerned about working for someone who obviously doesn't have the competent HR or management skills to trust their own judgement of whether or not you are up for the job based on the interview and their ability (or lack of) to be able to read your C.V. and ring the referee's.

If they advertise a vacancy, and offer a job - then remuneration should be applied, regardless of whether or not you last beyond the trial period.

If someone took the initiative to contact a business who were not advertising a vacancy, but the individual was eager to work with them, and wanted to prove their own ability (presuming they hadn't worked in that specific field before), then you could somewhat understand the individual offering to work a day or two on trial. But any business worth their salt should only do that if they had a genuine opening available to offer the person after that time, and at least make some financial contribution to the individual to cover their expenses (travel, lunch) for those couple of days.

But starting out on a free trial basis for an advertised job (that you successfully passed at interview stage) is setting the wrong precedent, and will only leave you open to abuse, and being further taken advantage of.

This is worse than those internships! At least as an intern you don't expect to be paid, and you are supposed to be learning new skills. But when it's a job you're obviously capable of doing (hence passing the C.V. stage and interview stage), then it's just immoral.

I've flagged this with a trade union - lets see what their opinion is on the legalities / insurance issues etc.

D.McC · 23-08-2011 12:19am

JustMary wrote: »

It's the effect of the probation laws: you can be let go with no warning any time in the first 13 weeks, and with minimal notice any time in the first 12 months. They don't have to give a reason, and you have no recourse to any unfair dismissals legislation. The effect is a 12-month trial period.

IMHO, this means that unpaid trials are totally wrong. At very least you should be paid minimum wage during any trial.

Sorry, But I'll have to disagree with some of that. The period of probation should be set down in the T&C's of employment. It can of course be extended by a set period as a displinary measure if it is also mentioned in the contract.

I know for a fact, that after that time an employer must follow the agreed procedure and best pactice when it comes to dismissing an employee. Failing to do so can and has lead to the re-instatment of the dismissed employee.

Mrs OBumble · 23-08-2011 6:39pm

D.McC wrote: »

Sorry, But I'll have to disagree with some of that. The period of probation should be set down in the T&C's of employment. It can of course be extended by a set period as a displinary measure if it is also mentioned in the contract.

I know for a fact, that after that time an employer must follow the agreed procedure and best pactice when it comes to dismissing an employee. Failing to do so can and has lead to the re-instatment of the dismissed employee.

Sure, there are a few companies that offer shorter periods of probation, so that would be right.

But I'd hazzard a guess that most just leave it at the maximum, 12 months, just in case.

4 week trial

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