Middle Distance Plan by Debate

gerard65

Following on from the thread that woddle started about marathon training which has been very interesting reading, I wonder would there be enough interest in doing something for Middle Distance.
Is there enough boardies with MD experience here to share their experience's?. I know threads have been started in the past but died due to lack of interest, or maybe the wrong questions were been asked and you never know, maybe those who joined ART as marathon runners might decide to give the shorter, sharper stuff a go.
So to kick off I'll put some questions out there and see what happens:
1. Sprint training. How important is pure speed work, would you advise some sessions as sprinters do and an example of this.
2. Hill work. Short sprints or longer hill reps. Year round or only during certain periods of a program.
3. Long run. What would be the minimum distance for the long run as in getting the maximum out of minimum training.
4. Reps, intervals. Whats the difference, what pace and recovery times between.
5. Year round training. How should you go about constructing a schedual to get the best out of the track seasion.

Alot there I know and I have more questions, but I'll see how this runs.

Woddle

Perfect timing

ecoli

This could be another very good thread interested to hear other peoples views on this to which is why think answering questions one at a time rather than all at once is best way to spark debate

gerard65 wrote: »

1. Sprint training. How important is pure speed work, would you advise some sessions as sprinters do and an example of this.

Most certainly. If you look to 1500m which is considered more an aerobic event you look to the training breakdown you will see that the event is:

65 % aerobic
30 % anaerobic
5 % phosphate

Top end anaerobic capacity training is usually conducted anything between 30 sec - 2 min or so. Apply this to a well trained Middle distance athlete (4.05 1500m runner) and you are talking of reps of 200-800m. For someone coming from a 5k upwards background this would be more in line with your 1-2 mile race pace for the reps though a 800m -1500m runner would be hitting paces more in line with there 1500 - 1 mile pace for these

Phospate utilization training is usually 5-10 second all out efforts. As it usually takes up to 6 seconds to attain top speed these are usually done with a rolling start

An alternative session for this is Steep incline. 80-120m in length. Reps performed at best effort with full recovery.

Taking the figures into account you are talking that weekly training should comprise of

75% of mpw @ 5k to slower pace
23% of mpw @ 400-1500m pace
2% of mpw @ Maximum effort

Plyometrics and hills are also a huge part of speed development and explosive power as well as gym work that is used as well as "pure speed" sessions but will get into that in another post

If you are looking towards sprint specific sessions however hopefully these should help you

http://www.usatf.org/groups/Coaches/library/2007/Sprint%20Training/Clyde_Hart3.pdf

Macanri

Real MD Newbie question: What distances are considered to be Middle Distance?

Woddle

Macanri wrote: »

Real MD Newbie question: What distances are considered to be Middle Distance?

800m/1500 maybe 3k also?

gerard65

In a training cycle where is pure speed/sprint work most beneficial. Winter work tends to be endurance work but should it be introduced in the spring pre-conditioning period or do you think it should be left to the summer competition phase?
Basically I trying to figure out the time line for pure speed to start showing benefits to racing. Endurance takes time to build but are the fast-twitch fibres quicker to activate?

shels4ever

Woddle wrote: »

800m/1500 maybe 3k also?

I would say middle distance is anything that is measurred in m and not km sure 5000m is only 12.5 laps of the track too...

ecoli

shels4ever wrote: »

I would say middle distance is anything that is measurred in m and not km sure 5000m is only 12.5 laps of the track too...

As a 5000m/10000m runner i would argue that. Nothing middle distance about them last five laps of a 25 lap race:D

shels4ever

ecoli wrote: »

As a 5000m/10000m runner i would argue that. Nothing middle distance about them last five laps of a 25 lap race:D

I was waiting for that reply, never ran a 10k on the track I would think i'd find it very hard past half way.

ecoli

gerard65 wrote: »

In a training cycle where is pure speed/sprint work most beneficial. Winter work tends to be endurance work but should it be introduced in the spring pre-conditioning period or do you think it should be left to the summer competition phase?
Basically I trying to figure out the time line for pure speed to start showing benefits to racing. Endurance takes time to build but are the fast-twitch fibres quicker to activate?

An athlete should never be too far from speed and should keep elements of this in their training year round.

Short Maximum effort bursts with full recoveries are one approach to this as is short hills. (to be done at start of training as must be fresh for these)

Another way to do this downhill strides. This exaggerates a runners stride and as a result develops turnover and speed. Normally do these before an easy run of (flexibility becomes an issue here and must be addressed within the program)

^Warning^: as downhill running can create who load of problems with the increase in injury risk these should be done in controlled manner on even ground (grass preferably)

Not all speed development comes from speed work also. Plyometric drills and weights (or hills as an alternative to weights) will also develop power and fast twitch fiber recruitment. Plyos are high intensity and many runners try to conduct these on grass early season to reduce impact injury risk

gmurran

Great thread. I'm currently trying to get my 1500M time below 4:15. Going to give it another go tonight in Irishtown. 68's seem easy on paper but I keep coming up a few seconds shy in the 3rd lap.

That pdf is really useful ecoli.

gerard65

Been doing a bit of reading. Roger Bannister broke the 4 min mile on about 25 miles per week. Most of his training was 400m reps at 60 secs each. He was doing this almost everyday. Noakes uses this example of his 'Central Governor Theory'.
A few years ago the Irish Runner printed Eamonn Coghlan's sub 4, over 40, training and from what I remember it was high intensity, low milage. Is it a case of quality over quantity with big miles been wasted at MD?

shels4ever

gerard65 wrote: »

Been doing a bit of reading. Roger Bannister broke the 4 min mile on about 25 miles per week. Most of his training was 400m reps at 60 secs each. He was doing this almost everyday. Noakes uses this example of his 'Central Governor Theory'.
A few years ago the Irish Runner printed Eamonn Coghlan's sub 4, over 40, training and from what I remember it was high intensity, low milage. Is it a case of quality over quantity with big miles been wasted at MD?

I think 800m is a great distance as you get a blend of both approaches, middle distance runners with higher mileage v's 400m style runners moving up in distance. But the step upto 1500m/mile would require more mileage and remember Coghlan did train and run the NY marathon the year before in his prep to get ready for the over 40 mile.

ecoli

gerard65 wrote: »

Been doing a bit of reading. Roger Bannister broke the 4 min mile on about 25 miles per week. Most of his training was 400m reps at 60 secs each. He was doing this almost everyday. Noakes uses this example of his 'Central Governor Theory'.
A few years ago the Irish Runner printed Eamonn Coghlan's sub 4, over 40, training and from what I remember it was high intensity, low milage. Is it a case of quality over quantity with big miles been wasted at MD?

As far as i remember that was his summer work after progressing down to that pace but there was also an inclusion of fartlek etc.

The other thing about Bannister is that he was in the middle of his medical studies and as a result could only afford to spare that 30 min of a training session on his lunch break. This is more bred out of necessity rather than is view of an ideal approach. Compare him to Landy (broke Bannisters record three weeks later as soon as he came to Europe to compete on better tracks and better competition without pace making) who trained under based his training off the idea's of Zatopek and high mileage

Likewise Coughlan broke it at an older age only as a result of the aerobic base he had built through his teens and 20s

Quality does become an issue in MD but you cant ignore the miles either

woodchopper

ecoli wrote: »

An athlete should never be too far from speed and should keep elements of this in their training year round.

Short Maximum effort bursts with full recoveries are one approach to this as is short hills. (to be done at start of training as must be fresh for these)

My good friend Renato Cavona has told me that these short hill sprints can be done after an easy run. However, not a after a workout. Moses Mosop does these regularly after recovery runs.

ecoli

woodchopper wrote: »

My good friend Renato Cavona has told me that these short hill sprints can be done after an easy run. However, not a after a workout. Moses Mosop does these regularly after recovery runs.

Interesting are these maximum effort thou for developing explosive power? Mosop being a marathon runner i would have thought the aim of these would be stride efficiency and turnover. I would advocate similar i these were the equivalent to strides but for maximum speed development have found muscles need to be completely fresh which is why they are done at the start of a run

woodchopper

ecoli wrote: »

Interesting are these maximum effort thou for developing explosive power? Mosop being a marathon runner i would have thought the aim of these would be stride efficiency and turnover. I would advocate similar i these were the equivalent to strides but for maximum speed development have found muscles need to be completely fresh which is why they are done at the start of a run

They are aimed at recruiting fast twitch fibres which can only be achieved through maximum effort ie 8-10 seconds after a recovery run, on a steep gradient.

ecoli

woodchopper wrote: »

They are aimed at recruiting fast twitch fibres which can only be achieved through maximum effort ie 8-10 seconds after a recovery run, on a steep gradient.

Interesting I was always of the belief that fatigued muscles inhibit the recruitment of fast twitch muscle as by their nature they are less fatigue resistant than slow twitch muscle fibers which is why many coaches stress that such drills should be carried out when fresh.
Again I wouldnt argue with a man who has trained more elite athletes than I have had hot dinners . Guess different horses for different courses

David Matthews

Hi Guys,

With reference to Bannister training, I always believed that there were two types of middle distance athletes (800/1500) those who came from a speed backround,and those who came from distance backround .Call it speed orientate training and an endurance base training.

From my expierence I can tell you that in '95 I ran 1.44 (Irish rec) off SIX weeks running training.( I had a stress fracture march-may) But I Aqua trained, 6 sessions per week,biked 4 sessions and Gym 3. Yes Aqua sessions was the key 16 years ago to maintaning my aerobic capacity, I used the (Excercise) bike for the Anerobic work.

Once Back joggin (gradual) I was limited to 30 miles in total per week and all the sessions were done in UCD or College park grass.

That type of low milage suited me because a year later After spending the winter in OZ I built up to 90 miles...?? because everyone else was doing it. That year (olympic) I struggled to run 1.45.

The main point is that an athlete can appoach middle distance (800/1500) from the two perspectives speed or endurance, however with the 1500 the importance of endurance work becomes more apparent. See what works best for yourself, no two athletes are exactly the same.
davidmatthews.ie

thirtyfoot

David Matthews wrote: »

Hi Guys,

With reference to Bannister training, I always believed that there were two types of middle distance athletes (800/1500) those who came from a speed backround,and those who came from distance backround .Call it speed orientate training and an endurance base training.

From my expierence I can tell you that in '95 I ran 1.44 (Irish rec) off SIX weeks running training.( I had a stress fracture march-may) But I Aqua trained, 6 sessions per week,biked 4 sessions and Gym 3. Yes Aqua sessions was the key 16 years ago to maintaning my aerobic capacity, I used the (Excercise) bike for the Anerobic work.

Once Back joggin (gradual) I was limited to 30 miles in total per week and all the sessions were done in UCD or College park grass.

That type of low milage suited me because a year later After spending the winter in OZ I built up to 90 miles...?? because everyone else was doing it. That year (olympic) I struggled to run 1.45.

The main point is that an athlete can appoach middle distance (800/1500) from the two perspectives speed or endurance, however with the 1500 the importance of endurance work becomes more apparent. See what works best for yourself, no two athletes are exactly the same.
davidmatthews.ie

Great advice from a man that knows!!

For those who don't know David Matthews, he is still the Irish Record at 800, 1:44.82. For those that don't know 800m running, 1:44 is very fast!!

dna_leri

ecoli wrote: »

Interesting I was always of the belief that fatigued muscles inhibit the recruitment of fast twitch muscle as by their nature they are less fatigue resistant than slow twitch muscle fibers which is why many coaches stress that such drills should be carried out when fresh.
Again I wouldnt argue with a man who has trained more elite athletes than I have had hot dinners . Guess different horses for different courses

I think you are both talking about the same thing. Woodchopper's friend Canova (not Cavona !) recommends them after an easy run NOT when fatigued.

woodchopper

dna_leri wrote: »

I think you are both talking about the same thing. Woodchopper's friend Canova (not Cavona !) recommends them after an easy run NOT when fatigued.

You must be the moderator for grammer and spelling mistakes

ecoli

woodchopper wrote: »

You must be the moderator for grammer and spelling mistakes

Uh oh! Im screwed if that is the case:p

jayok77

ecoli wrote: »

Most certainly. If you look to 1500m which is considered more an aerobic event you look to the training breakdown you will see that the event is:

65 % aerobic
30 % anaerobic
5 % phosphate

I was reading this doc on Irish Institute of sport last week which shows the broken down physiology of running (page 4) for different race distances. Seems to differ from figures above but you probably meant them in a different context?

For 1500m is says:
Economy - 5%~ (Improved by Aerobic exercise)
VO2 max - 65%~ (Improved by Near Max HR exercise)
Lactate threshold - 15%~ (Improved by Tempo exercise)
Anerobic - 15%~ (Improved by Explosive exercise and other 'stuff')

It's information overload for me though!

http://www.instituteofsport.ie/Institute_Of_Sport/Sports_Zone/Resources_Downloads/Andy_Jones_Endurance_Physiology_and_Training_pdf.pdf

I think Aerobic exercise is the strong foundation of any top athlete regardless of how its used in the above example.

ecoli

jayok77 wrote: »

I was reading this doc on Irish Institute of sport last week which shows the broken down physiology of running (page 4) for different race distances. Seems to differ from figures above but you probably meant them in a different context?

For 1500m is says:
Economy - 5%~ (Improved by Aerobic exercise)
VO2 max - 65%~ (Improved by Near Max HR exercise)
Lactate threshold - 15%~ (Improved by Tempo exercise)
Anerobic - 15%~ (Improved by Explosive exercise and other 'stuff')

It's information overload for me though!

Here is a bit of a different break down of the same figures

Lactate Threshold comes under the anaeerobic term from my previous figures. This is roughly 10k to Tempo pace so you are talking 75-90% Max heart rate range.

The benefits from this are similar to those of anaerobic conditioning:

• Increased adaptation of working muscles to utilize
  glycolytic and oxidative enzymes.
• Increased blood buffering capacity
• Increased capacity to store fuels such as carbohydrates and fatty acids
• Continued activation of fast twitch muscles.

Vo2 here is what i considered Aerobic.

Brian Mac refers to this in following extract

Numerous studies show that you can increase your VO2max by working out at an intensity that raises your heart rate to between 65 and 85% of its maximum for at least 20 minutes three to five times a week.

http://brianmac.co.uk/vo2max.htm

The study also does not take into account phosphate training but rather uses the term (economy) which I would have though comes under the Aerobic from the description given of what economy compiles of.

Again many people can break these figures down in different ways depending on terminology but the figures are just used to highlight the fact that you are right Aerobic endurance plays a major role in 1500m training

David Matthews

jayok77 wrote: »

I was reading this doc on Irish Institute of sport last week which shows the broken down physiology of running (page 4) for different race distances. Seems to differ from figures above but you probably meant them in a different context?

For 1500m is says:
Economy - 5%~ (Improved by Aerobic exercise)
VO2 max - 65%~ (Improved by Near Max HR exercise)
Lactate threshold - 15%~ (Improved by Tempo exercise)
Anerobic - 15%~ (Improved by Explosive exercise and other 'stuff')

It's information overload for me though!

http://www.instituteofsport.ie/Institute_Of_Sport/Sports_Zone/Resources_Downloads/Andy_Jones_Endurance_Physiology_and_Training_pdf.pdf

I think Aerobic exercise is the strong foundation of any top athlete regardless of how its used in the above example.

Hi Guys,
Its Interesting figures put out by the institute of sport,and it is Gospel!!! A question to my fellow runners, How are these percentages reflected in how we train?:)
david matthews

gerard65

jayok77 wrote: »

For 1500m is says:
Economy - 5%~ (Improved by Aerobic exercise)
VO2 max - 65%~ (Improved by Near Max HR exercise)
Lactate threshold - 15%~ (Improved by Tempo exercise)
Anerobic - 15%~ (Improved by Explosive exercise and other 'stuff')

This is getting way too scientific for my limited knowledge. Can anyone give an example of training for the above. A dummies guide, please;).

David, am I right too assume you may not agree with with the percentages given in above?

ecoli

gerard65 wrote: »

This is getting way too scientific for my limited knowledge. Can anyone give an example of training for the above. A dummies guide, please;).

Personally I would break them up differently but here is my interpretation of the terms used in that PDF

Economy - 5%~ (Improved by Aerobic exercise) Recovery pace. Slower than your easy run pace
VO2 max - 65%~ (Improved by Near Max HR exercise) Easy run pace
Lactate threshold - 15%~ (Improved by Tempo exercise) 10k - Half marathon pace normally 20-40 min efforts (or duration of hard running if 10k reps)
Anerobic - 15%~ (Improved by Explosive exercise and other 'stuff') Normally 3k to 5k pace with reps of 2-8 min

Also need to factor in Anaerobic Capacity training which Daniels refers to as "R" pace. This is normally conducted at 1500m pace in training reps or quicker with reps of duration of 30 secs to 2 min roughly

Personally I am of the belief that the economy % should come under the Aerobic and the 5 % would be focused or phosphates ( Max Effort Sprints). Again different coaches have different approaches. There are many ways to skin a cat likewise with training an athlete its about what suits the athlete (Look to different approaches of Coe and Cram both getting to the same destination)

David Matthews

Hi guys,

At the end of the day its science and you can't argue with that, god be with the days when we used to run as we felt....We had a relatively simple approach to training:And testing was available and used by myself throughout my career, it has its place.Some of the paces we used were as follows in old money sorry!!

recovery-(exactly as it says in the tin) 6.30 pm (5-10 miles)
Tempo- Just short of lactate threshold 4.45-5.00 pm (3-4 miles)
Interval-Hard,But I wouldnt go to the bottom of the well in every session,maybe one in three, you'd be absolutely out on your feet.
Strength work- dynamic gym work.
Mix all those ingredients and you won't turn out too bad(you might have to adjust the times which I have to now!!)... Its getting the correct blend is the difficulty.
regards
david

ecoli

gerard65 wrote: »

4. Reps, intervals. Whats the difference, what pace and recovery times between.

Time to continue this as shame to see it die so soon

I take it this reference is in relation to Jack Daniels program? Most people would use these these terms to cover the same thing

Daniels however distinguishes his training paces by using these terms independently

"I" pace is what the likes of tergat and other coaches would refer to as Vo2 max sessions. these are usually conducted at about 3k-5k race pace depending on your level of fitness. if you use HR as a guide it would be 98-100% of max heart rate. The aim of these is to develop maximum oxygen consumption and raise anaerobic capacity

"R" paced sessions are designed to work on economy and speed. These are effectively aimed at allowing your body to efficiently run at the high end speeds of 800-1500m racing efficiently.

In terms of Daniels plan both are essential as R paced running is not designed to help boost you Vo2 max or your lactate threshold

dna_leri

ecoli wrote: »

Time to continue this as shame to see it die so soon

I take it this reference is in relation to Jack Daniels program? Most people would use these these terms to cover the same thing

Daniels however distinguishes his training paces by using these terms independently

"I" pace is what the likes of tergat and other coaches would refer to as Vo2 max sessions. these are usually conducted at about 3k-5k race pace depending on your level of fitness. if you use HR as a guide it would be 98-100% of max heart rate. The aim of these is to develop maximum oxygen consumption and raise anaerobic capacity

"R" paced sessions are designed to work on economy and speed. These are effectively aimed at allowing your body to efficiently run at the high end speeds of 800-1500m racing efficiently.

In terms of Daniels plan both are essential as R paced running is not designed to help boost you Vo2 max or your lactate threshold

There is also a key difference on recovery times, unlike interval training, fully recover in between repetition "R" workouts.

ecoli

Given that we are coming into indoor/outdoor season now and many people are finding themselves coming back to the track for sessions I thought it may be an idea to revive this thread.

Have already started transitioning with some sharper stuff and spending atleast one session every 2 weeks @ 1500m pace. The idea is building up the distance of these reps progressive to get to the point where my body becomes relaxed at that pace. Supplimentary sessions include speed development sessions once a week of 800m pace and quicker and also a strength workout of 5k/10k pace (and the odd tempo)

Woddle

I'm hoping to run some solid PBs for 800/1500 come the summer. All my training right now is aimed at that goal.
I reckoned having a half marathon at the start of April will help boost my endurance and make me stronger for sessions.
I reckon this is where I've always gone wrong in the past, doing sessions before I'm able for them which normally leads to me getting burned out and never getting near any of my goals.

dna_leri

Any input on how best to structure the season into what I think are called mesocycles?

I have just done my one indoor event of the year and am now going back to try to peak properly for August. My outline plan was to repeat my base training from October for next 5 weeks, with easy runs +strides , steady runs and increasing long runs up to 2 hours and also one XC and 5K race. Then start a hill-training phase for another 5 weeks (long hills, short hills and long hilly runs).

After that start some specific faster work - 1K and 200m intervals. Do an early season tester end of April then head into competition phase. Any advice?

ecoli

dna_leri wrote: »

Any input on how best to structure the season into what I think are called mesocycles?

I have just done my one indoor event of the year and am now going back to try to peak properly for August. My outline plan was to repeat my base training from October for next 5 weeks, with easy runs +strides , steady runs and increasing long runs up to 2 hours and also one XC and 5K race. Then start a hill-training phase for another 5 weeks (long hills, short hills and long hilly runs).

After that start some specific faster work - 1K and 200m intervals. Do an early season tester end of April then head into competition phase. Any advice?

Best advice I can give is to keep in touch with speed. This does not mean hard anaerobic sessions associated with competition phase but just work on turn over and a bit of target race paced work with longer recoveries.

The approach I am doing is working towards a summer peak also and the way I am working it is that my paced work is progressing so that by the time competition phase comes around I will have naturally transitioned to the type of sessions such as 8*400m @ 1500m pace off short recovery (1 min or that) as I am doing say 1200m of the paced stuff off short recoveries per set atm and build from there

Another approach is to work on paced work with long recoveries so that you are not going deeply anaerobic and instigating peak and progress the recoveries as the season goes on. For example the likes of 400m s off 90 sec recovery and by the time the season comes around you have gradually shortened the recovery to say 60-70 sec.

What ever works for you I am going off personal opinion that i find if I dont keep in touch with the speed I struggle for a while to get back to it. Even adding some strides or alactic work once every week so can help if you want to approach it in the shortened lydiard style approach you have described previously