Help Needed - Army Unit ID

HerrScheisse

Hi all,

Was wondering if any of you could help me with this photo?

It is the scan of a photocopy of original, there is another photo of the unit on parade which I will try obtain.

I would like if anyone can identify the unit and if so, how / where I might search records of individual service.

Thanks!

arnhem44

I beleive this to be the Irish Guards with the shamrock collar badges.Do you know when he served?

HerrScheisse

Thank you Arnhem, I believe it would be "approx" the 1916 time period. All I have is name, year of death and the photos.

Do you know how I might find more details?

arnhem44

If he served in the Irish Guards then you can apply in writing to the address below for his service record.The Guards regiments held there own records which survived the blitz.The Common Wealth War Graves Commission can be searched for free from the link below.His medal index card will be available on Ancestry and the National Archives Uk and Unit Diaries should be available from the National Archives in the UK covering the battalions day to day activities.

The Regimental Archivist of the Irish Guards
Wellington Barracks
Birdcage Walk
London
SW1E 6HQ.

http://www.cwgc.org/

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/british-army-war-diaries-1914-1918.htm

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/browse-refine.asp?CatID=10&searchType=browserefine&pagenumber=1&query=*&queryType=1

HerrScheisse

Thanks a lot Arnhem - I will do that. He died of natural causes so there will be no war grave in this case.

johnny_doyle

many serving soldiers died of natural causes during WW1. If a serving soldier, he should have a CWGC grave. Try his name on the cwgc.org site.

HerrScheisse

Thanks for the help all - he died after WW2 as an old man of natural causes so there will for sure be no war grave. I popped a written request for data to the regimental archives in the post tonight. I hope something comes of it - it is a piece of family history I am trying to unravel.

The grave is in Dublin, it is a family grave and not a war grave - buried with his wife.

If I get to the bottom of it via the archives, Ill post back up! All relatives that would have relevant details are long since dead.

HerrScheisse

One small question - would it be standard practice for the regiment to make a portrait photograph of the individual troops? As there is no way that photo was privately made by family (unless via a photographer in a private studio) since the quality and framing are too good.

If so, maybe the regiment have the the same photo in the archives so I appended a copy to my data request. I hope they can help.

johnny_doyle

HerrScheisse wrote: »

Thanks for the help all - he died after WW2 as an old man of natural causes so there will for sure be no war grave. I popped a written request for data to the regimental archives in the post tonight. I hope something comes of it - it is a piece of family history I am trying to unravel.

The grave is in Dublin, it is a family grave and not a war grave - buried with his wife.

If I get to the bottom of it via the archives, Ill post back up! All relatives that would have relevant details are long since dead.

sorry, misunderstood when he died - I assumed you were saying that he died during WW1 of natural causes. Doh.

If you need a WW1 medal card look up let us know.

It wasn't standard practice for regiments to take photos. Generally the soldiers popped into a photographic studio of their own accord.

HerrScheisse

Thanks for the offer Johnny!

I looked up the national archives and found many similar names but they were not the rank he was meant to be. I'll let the archivist of the regiment look into it, maybe they have some precise data, maybe not. After all, I am going on an estimate of the regiment based upon one single photograph. I do know he did have medals but have long since been sold when he died which is rather sickening and a cheap act

It's only now that I started collecting myself that I have looked into this picture and tried to determine the story behind it. I was too busy with my main interest WW2 when there may be also interesting tales close to home just a couple generations away. But unfortunately
...maybe lost forever to father time.

HerrScheisse

Just an update on this. Firstly I want to thank Arnhem for identifying the regiment and giving the data on the archivist. You were correct

I wrote to the archivist and based on information I had he was able to locate the correct record! We are 100% certain based upon names of chilldren etc. An added bonus was that there were next of kin listed on the enlistment record, my great great grandparents in this case, so from this one photograph and letter to the archivist, I have traced family back to the 1860s, just after the Great famine and just before Franco Prussia. Truly amazing!

So if ever we should have occassion to meet, drinks are on me for that info Thanks again!

Seems the service record was not complete but I have applied and will see what arrives in the post. It costs 30 sterling for such records.

arnhem44

Excellent news HerrScheisse,well done on that.I remember when I found my Great Grandfathers record and all the information that was found in it,it opens up a whole new picture on someones life.I'm sure you will find that the record will have a lot of unexpected information in it and will make interesting reading.Again great news and enjoy.

HerrScheisse

Oh I will enjoy! I had seen that photo for years but paid no heed because there was no connection - almost no details available on it. But now it is all becoming very clear and I think an interesting tale behind it. Looking forward to receiving those records. He joined 1901 while the guards formed in 1900 so in almost at the very beginning. A nice piece of personal history!

HerrScheisse

I just received the service records and while they shed a lot of light on certain topics, they actually raise a lot of questions that I cannot answer. From what I can see, he joined the Irish Guard in 1901 and served 11-12 years and became Sergeant Major. However there are no details of service type, commendations etc nor even a discharge date. Strangely the last three entries in the service records look to be a different regiment (left hand column), I think I can make out the word "Connaught" but I could be wrong. So if he transferred then the service record might be split between two regiments.



Thereafer I have a blank for the entire WW1 1914-1918. The next lead I have is a handwritten letter to the Irish Guard for a service pension in 1919. In the letter there is mention of being discharged from the "Depot Royal Fusiliers" with accompanying message "having returned there from overseas from the 43rd garrison battalion of the same regiment". (If I read the 43rd correctly as the handwritting is hard to decipher sometimes.



Can anyone shed some light on these two entries, can you make out the regiment listed in the left hand column of the service record or does anyone know what that 43rd Garrison is or the Royal Fusiliers Depot?

Many thanks

HerrScheisse

I have since determined that he switched from the Irish Guards to the Connaught Rangers in 1912. After that he seems to have joined a Labour Corps, then the 43rd Garrison Battalion of the Royal Fusiliers prior to discharge.

I know the Connaught rangers were disbanded in 1922, does anyone know if any regimental archives exist or diaries, or where I can find any data on the Royal Fusiliers or the Labour Corps?

I did locate what I think to be his medal index based on this info and he has been awarded the Victory Medal and the British War Medal.

But now I seem to have reached a sticky point

johnny_doyle

the Royal Fusiliers raised a staggering number of battalions during WW1.

http://www.1914-1918.net/royalfus.htm

43rd Garrison Battalion in turn had a staggering 46 companies.

the Connaught Rangers entry look like promoted to Colour Sergeant and then later Colour Sgt, Instructor of Musketry. In August 1908, this roll was filled by Col/Sgt John Heaney until April 1911. See potted history of the 4th batt at :

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=142216

HerrScheisse

Thanks Johnny! I was wondering what that last entry was - the handwriting is sometimes difficult to decipher.

In the column adjacent right to the one with entry "Connaught Rangers" I see what I think is "4th Btn".

I did check your link with the history and census of the 4th, but did not find his name in the 1912-1914 entry.

Maybe I need to search for the entries of the persons signing his service log, and then maybe I find his exact battalion.

johnny_doyle

the Capt P L Reid who signed off your chaps papers in 1912 appears to be Capt Percy Lester Reid who was an early officer of the Irish Guards and who led No 3 Company when the 1st Battn went into action in 1914.

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/28530/pages/6732/page.pdf

He took command of the 2nd Battalion in 1916 thru to 1917. Awarded an OBE in 1918.

He went on to be a Lt Colonel, High Sheriff of Nottinghamshire, director of the Prudential insurance co.

HerrScheisse

Thanks again Johnny, you are proving a big help to me deciphering this lost family history.

Tonight I discovered another document, a Royal Fusiliers index card, the surname was spelt wrong but his number and enlistment date were correct. There is some more data listed "Action Taken" and "Reason for Discharge" but I do not know what it means. Perhaps I could pm you it if you do not mind? You might find further details on his activities?

johnny_doyle

feel free to PM.