Non Payment is it a Garda Matter

Zambia

I had a thought in relation to the horse thread.

When does non payment become a criminal matter?

If someone does not pay you is it a criminal matter if no attempt to decieve the owner is made.

Examples A person gets a Cab from A to B (Fare 50)at b they say I need to get more money as they thought they had the cash but dont . They give the cab driver a student card as reassurance their real name and phone number, address. But after that piont dodge the cabbies phone calls and if ever cornered just give excuses.

A tennant moves into a house. After the first 2 months does not pay rent and simply refuses to.

You pay for an item in a shop , take it away and the cheque bounces. Store calls the person and says please send a decent cheque. Person says they did but shop nevers recieves it. Persons refuses to send another.

You order office supplys as a company then dont pay for them, ignore requests to pay etc. etc.

In what scenarios do you call in the Garda. Ignoring of course any clear deception like using the name of another.

drunkmonkey

Zambia wrote: »

You pay for an item in a shop , take it away and the cheque bounces.

Out of what you listed I think that is the only one that's a criminal matter. It's Fraud to write a cheque when you don't have funds to clear it.

All the rest seem like civil matters. Could be wrong though.

goat2

Zambia wrote: »

I had a thought in relation to the horse thread.

When does non payment become a criminal matter?

If someone does not pay you is it a criminal matter if no attempt to decieve the owner is made.

Examples A person gets a Cab from A to B (Fare 50)at b they say I need to get more money as they thought they had the cash but dont . They give the cab driver a student card as reassurance their real name and phone number, address. But after that piont dodge the cabbies phone calls and if ever cornered just give excuses.

A tennant moves into a house. After the first 2 months does not pay rent and simply refuses to.

You pay for an item in a shop , take it away and the cheque bounces. Store calls the person and says please send a decent cheque. Person says they did but shop nevers recieves it. Persons refuses to send another.

You order office supplys as a company then dont pay for them, ignore requests to pay etc. etc.

In what scenarios do you call in the Garda. Ignoring of course any clear deception like using the name of another.

i dont think you call garda, just keep sending out bill, and then when you get sick of sending bill, send a solicitors letter, if it is a large amount, but if you are speaking of fifty euro, fees will take that from you,

angeline

Writing a cheque when you know the funds are not in your account is an offence. Non payment of a taxi fare is an offence. Non payment of rent is entirely civil.

dermot_sheehan

the test is whether knowing that payment on the spot is required or expected and not done

s. 8 of the 2001 act
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0050/sec0008.html#sec8

Zambia

Yes but the kicker in that is the Dishonestly part

a person who, knowing that payment on the spot for any goods obtained or any service done is required or expected, dishonestly makes off without having paid as required or expected and with the intention of avoiding payment on the spot is guilty of an offence.

In the cases listed above the element of Dishonesty is very grey. At no point is any of the cases saying they are not paying indeed some are saying they have paid or are just avoiding the issue.

So this brings up the age old practice of Taxi drivers driving to Police stations when some eejit states they have no cash. As long as they dont try to get out of paying and aknowledge they have to. I don't see what the police can do.

Bosco boy

Civil matters, the other party will 9 times out of 10 make some counter allegation in relation to an element of the contract not being fulfilled and it becomes a civil dispute. It's a grey area but best left to your solicitor. A lot of people come to the gardai with civil matters trying to make them criminal as they are looking for cheap law.

bath handle

Just because something is Civil does not mean that it is not also Civil. Assault is a classic example. A lot of Garda refuse to investigate genuine criminal complaints on the basis that they are civil.getting into a taxi with no money and only telling the driver at the end of the journey is criminal. Payment on the spot is expected on leaving a taxi. Obtaining a service by deception and failing to pay in circumstances where payment is expected are offences under the Theft Act.

superfish

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8k1d8uX9Gw

Zambia

bath handle wrote: »

Just because something is Civil does not mean that it is not also Criminal*. Assault is a classic example.

I don't follow the assault comparrison. I know you can civilly sue after an assault but how does it tie.
* I assume this was meant

bath handle wrote: »

A lot of Garda refuse to investigate genuine criminal complaints on the basis that they are civil.getting into a taxi with no money and only telling the driver at the end of the journey is criminal.

You could see a Garda's predictament the passengers states he thought he had cash on him but was mistaken. The Garda would have to prove the passenger knew beforehand he had no money.

[/QUOTE]
Payment on the spot is expected on leaving a taxi. Obtaining a service by deception and failing to pay in circumstances where payment is expected are offences under the Theft Act.[/QUOTE]
The act has been quoted above as well as the glaring piont of proof. You have to be dishonest to fall foul of that act.

goat2

this having no cash when a person thought they had can happen, about two yrs ago, i did a big grocery shop, put hand in pocket to realise i let wallet at home, at least i was able to offer to reshelf groceries, embarrissing and all is it was, but with taxi the customer here again only realised he had no cash (honest mistake) when he reached destination, i would just send bill

bath handle

Proof is an entirely separate matter as to whether a crime has been committed. The Garda should investigate and after a proper investigation decide whether there is enough evidence to secure a conviction. Occasionally someone will have forgotten their wallet, but the Garda should be able to test the truth of that.

Bosco boy

bath handle wrote: »

Just because something is Civil does not mean that it is not also Civil. Assault is a classic example. A lot of Garda refuse to investigate genuine criminal complaints on the basis that they are civil.getting into a taxi with no money and only telling the driver at the end of the journey is criminal. Payment on the spot is expected on leaving a taxi. Obtaining a service by deception and failing to pay in circumstances where payment is expected are offences under the Theft Act.

Assault is criminal and should be investigated if a statement of complaint is made, you can sue the offender in the civil courts if you want, the taxi example is a specific offence as well.

johnnyskeleton

Deceit also relates to a false statement as to existing fact, not to a future possibility or promise. Most of the above examples are as to future promises to pay, which is outside the remit of the offence. Writing a cheque on an account that has no money is arguably an exception, because it is implicit in writing a cheque that you are asserting that you have sufficient funds to pay it out. But there is still the issue of proving dishonesty.

If I promise to do something in exchange for money to be paid at a later date, or if I do something with a promise to pay on a later date, it is a civil not a criminal matter. Apart from anything else, the counter party is completely free to accept or reject the terms and has to make a business decision as to whether or not to rely on my promise, just as happens in contracts every single day.

If it were otherwise, all those insolvent builders would be locked up, but perhaps that would be a good thing.