Fines for being in a forest after dark !!!

preacherman

Please take the time to read through this post and at the very least "like" the facebook page ...

The following information is taken directly from the NI - Wild Forum. Obviously this bylaw will only effect Northern Ireland for now but I feel that if it is implemented up North it could quickly follow here if only as a potential revenue generator. Also note that places like the Mournes would be out of bounds after 4pm in winter !!! ... so it would effect hillwalkers from the south if it became law...


The Forestry Service has opened a consultation on proposed revisions to the byelaws that apply to their land. The byelaws are already pretty draconian with regard to restrictions on what you are permitted to do on forestry land but the new changes specifically ban being in one of their forests between sunset and sunrise.
Quote
The Forestry Act (NI) 2010 grants a public right of pedestrian access to forestry land, but this is of course subject to the Byelaws. Byelaw 5 excludes access between sunset and sunrise, and also allows the Department to exclude or restrict the Public’s right of access to any part of the forestry land. Sometimes we will have to do this for health and safety, plant health, environmental or other reasons.
Quote
It is an offence to contravene any provision of these byelaws, and any person committing such an offence is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale, and in the case of a continuing offence, to a further fine not exceeding one-tenth of level 3 on the standard scale in respect of each day during which the offence is continued after conviction.

In essence, if these changes are allowed to pass then you will be subject to a fine for being in any Forestry Commission operated forests after dark. As a general rule of thumb, unless a forest is privately owned then it is covered by the Forestry Commission so that applies to the bulk of Northern Ireland forests. At very least this would mean you would be fined for walking your dog / allowing your children to play in late afternoon in the winter as the sun would have set. You would also not be able to access the Mournes from Newcastle any time after sunset as the only routes in are all through Forestry land.

As a group, we feel that we are already heavily restricted by draconian and unbureaucratic laws covering how we are allowed to enjoy ourselves on our own tax funded public land. Access is already severely restricted and wild camping is largely outlawed. This change would now mean that we can't even enjoy large areas of Northern Ireland in the evenings for any reason. We appreciate that small elements of the populace can cause problems in forests but that seems to be a poor reason to have a blanket ban and that education and sensible enforcement of practical and fair laws are the only ways to protect our open spaces for legitimate use.

Here are a few thoughts on what these changes will mean:
1) The sun sets at 4pm in winter so you wouldn't be allowed in a forest in late afternoon for any legitimate reason, even to walk your dog or let the children play.
2) Access to the Mournes would be severely restricted as the main, easiest routes in/out are from Newcastle through forests. Restricting access to the Mournes is foolish as they are a huge tourist attraction.
4) Restricting access to forests will hinder attempts to encourage young people to spend time constructively outside.
5) Banning all activities after sunset is far too draconian. If there is a problem activity that needs curtailed then it should be targeted directly.
6) These are public forests and we have a basic right to use them sensibly at any time. Full stop!

Please contact the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development (DARD) to voice your concerns on this topic. If the public does not react then this byelaw will pass automatically - if you sit back and hope that other people react to this then you will be part of the reason that we can't use our own forests any more!

What can you do?
Facebook
Please go here and "Like" this campaign. Please encourage all your friends to do the same. Facebooks is big these days and campaigns can get some serious traction!
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Fight-fining-us-for-being-in-a-forest-after-dark-in-Northern-Ireland/136767126399001

For more information ...http://www.ni-wild.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2142

Thanks for taking the time to read this post ... and hopefully you have already "liked" the Facebook page

Andrew

preacherman

Me again folks

For the record I have a vested interest in this as my main outdoor pursuit, Bushcraft, which obviously relies on access to forests, will be seriously affected if this law comes into being. The Irish Bushcraft Club, of which I am a long time member, has a link with the Northern Ireland Bushcraft Association and it was from them that I first heard about this. But, it is not just our organisation that will be affected, wild campers, hillwalkers, birdwatchers and many other outdoor pursuit clubs and organisations will be affected by this.

This is quite serious and will have consequences here if this byelaw is passed in the North. If it passes there it will not be long before it will be brought in here. This is certain in my opinion. If this law is brought in here it will criminalise people like us who enjoy the freedom of the outdoors while applying a leave no trace philosophy, we will pay the same fine and have the same criminal record as those who choose to just use the forest as a party venue. It won't be fair but it will be the law !!!

We have an opportunity now to help our Northern Ireland neighbours in convincing their government not to bring in this law, and, help ourselves going forward.

I would urge you all to "like" the facebook page today and maybe spend a few minutes penning a letter or mail to one of the addresses on the NI-Wild thread linked to above.

Please voice your concerns in this thread too (even if just to say that you have "liked" the facebook page) to show our support for our Northern Ireland Outdoor Pursuits neighbours and friends.

Links here again ...http://www.facebook.com/pages/Fight-fining-us-for-being-in-a-forest-after-dark-in-Northern-Ireland/136767126399001

http://www.ni-wild.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2142

Thanks once again for taking the time to read another long winded post from me but I strongly believe we need to support this campaign !!!

Andrew

Donny5

I think it's a great that you're taking an interest, Andrew, but you're wrong to say that if it comes in to law in the North, then it will come in here too. Although I'd fight this down here, the North has it's own democratic process and don't it's anything to do with me.

HellFireClub

It sounds like something that the Irish Civil Service would come up with... Coillte have for many years been locking the public car parks for the forest parks around South Dublin and Wicklow because they couldn't manage to keep the scumbag boy racers out, so what do they do?!?!?!? They lock the car parks permamently and deprive everyone of the amenity.

Donny5

HellFireClub wrote: »

It sounds like something that the Irish Civil Service would come up with... Coillte have for many years been locking the public car parks for the forest parks around South Dublin and Wicklow because they couldn't manage to keep the scumbag boy racers out, so what do they do?!?!?!? They lock the car parks permamently and deprive everyone of the amenity.

In a lot of those cases, dickheads were using the carparks as access points into forest tracks and the like and then rallying around in stolen cars before burning them out. That's what was happening at two of the car parks in Djouce woods, so they blocked them permanently. One of those carparks even had the height restriction barrier torn down and tinkers move in. I can't blame Coillte for not wanting to deal with that.

preacherman

Donny5 wrote: »

I think it's a great that you're taking an interest, Andrew, but you're wrong to say that if it comes in to law in the North, then it will come in here too. Although I'd fight this down here, the North has it's own democratic process and don't it's anything to do with me.

Donny5 I would be more than happy to be proved wrong on this, but I would fear the worst to be honest.

I also see your point about the North being none of our business but for me it is about supporting our friends and neighbours in the world of outdoor pursuits on the same island.

Okay, one more effort to get you on side

My interpretation on why this byelaw is being proposed is that the NI Govt. are faced with huge costs not already budgeted for because of both the fires last month and also a major disease outbreak that required felling of many trees which will need replacing at a huge cost. Also fly tipping has to be cleaned up at huge cost. They cannot afford another outbreak of either kind this or any other year so their knee jerk reaction appears to be to exclude everybody from the forests after dark. I can kind of see their thought process in action ... exclude the people, fine them, eliminate the problem ! This is where I see our own Govt. stepping in and trying the same thing if it is passed in NI. Our Govt. can't afford the costs associated with antisocial behaviour in the woods either and could use a similar law to try and not only save money but maybe recoup some of their costs in fines collected.

My problem lies with their blanket ban on all visitors to the forest rather than targeting the actual individuals responsible for the destruction of the forests and ecology. We all know that the very people this byelaw is targeting will ignore it completely and the rest of us will have to break the law to participate in our hobby. Maybe the byelaw could be drafted in such a way as to make it clear what activities are permitted eg. walking a dog, and what is not permitted eg. bonfires and cider. Rangers and police could be given authority enshrined in law to exclude people guilty of harming the landscape or even people likely to harm the landscape within the scope of outlined banned activities. This would allow the ordinary decent person the freedom to enjoy the outdoors in a manner that would enhance the environment and should eliminate the reasons for the overspends on budgets. By allowing ordinary decent people into the forest at all times would actually benefit the state by having many "eyes and ears" on the ground as it were.

Well have I convinced you

Andrew

Donny5

I definitely agree that it's a bad idea and everything you say is true, but I still don't think it's our business. It would be unenforceable, anyway.

preacherman

Donny5 wrote: »

I definitely agree that it's a bad idea and everything you say is true, but I still don't think it's our business. It would be unenforceable, anyway.

Ah well it was worth a try

Andrew

irishlostboy

good thread Andrew. thanks for bringing this subject to light.

HellFireClub

Donny5 wrote: »

In a lot of those cases, dickheads were using the carparks as access points into forest tracks and the like and then rallying around in stolen cars before burning them out. That's what was happening at two of the car parks in Djouce woods, so they blocked them permanently. One of those carparks even had the height restriction barrier torn down and tinkers move in. I can't blame Coillte for not wanting to deal with that.

It p*sses me off no end though that the attitude is to shut the car parks and deprive everyone of the amenity, instead of putting in CCTV or getting the Gardai involved...

preacherman

irishlostboy wrote: »

good thread Andrew. thanks for bringing this subject to light.

Cheers Tim, good to see you're still around

Andrew

nomdeboardie

Depressing.

This reminds me that I noticed a sign in the Djouce "Lake Carpark" (closed off :rolleyes:, as mentioned above) area stating that visitors were not allowed in the forest after closing time. I can't remember the exact wording - will look next time I'm there. (Humorously, no closing time was stipulated as the “carpark” had been decommissioned…) As most access routes to Djouce mountain pass through Coillte forestry, this means that e.g. coming down from a hillwalk a little “late” is basically outlawed (never mind "moonlight walks" etc)?

From Coillte Outdoors FAQ (http://www.coillteoutdoors.ie/index.php?id=47&no_cache=1):
Are there opening and closing times for the Forest?
Some forests areas near large centres of population may have a specific closing time, this will be posted on the site. After dark forests near large centres are not recommended as places that people should be in for a variety of reasons. We would ask all visitors to respect the signs and adhere to the closing times and vacate the forest prior to those times for their own safety.
--OK, that probably sounds more advisory than prescriptive, but…

Judge

It's worth saying the Coillte already have the power to stipulate what times people may enter their property. From the current (2009) Coillte bye-laws:

5. (1) Coillte lands shall be open on such days and during such hours and to such extent as may be determined from time to time by Coillte.

It's really hard to see how this can be enforced on everyone in practice and I suspect the rationale is that in dealing with serious anti-social behavior it gives the police and the courts more certainty in their authority to ask people to leave the lands in question as well as giving them something concrete to charge them with (its easier to define and prove trespass than anti-social behaviour which is more of a subjective concept).

Of course, given how the length of days varies, presumably at this time of the year, there's plenty of people up to no good in the hours of daylight.:rolleyes:

HellFireClub

Judge wrote: »

It's worth saying the Coillte already have the power to stipulate what times people may enter their property. From the current (2009) Coillte bye-laws:



It's really hard to see how this can be enforced on everyone in practice and I suspect the rationale is that in dealing with serious anti-social behavior it gives the police and the courts more certainty in their authority to ask people to leave the lands in question as well as giving them something concrete to charge them with (its easier to define and prove trespass than anti-social behaviour which is more of a subjective concept).

Of course, given how the length of days varies, presumably at this time of the year, there's plenty of people up to no good in the hours of daylight.:rolleyes:

I don't think the matter is that simple at all. Many of the walking tracks "owned" by Coillte, are public right of ways and have been so for hundreds of years. On that basis, I don't agree that some makey up public sector quango rules, can just override the right of someone to use a public right of way at any particular time that they may wish to.

It's the same old approach to everything in this country, when scum are abusing amenities, deprive the whole community of the amenity rather than deal effectively with said scum.

Judge

HellFireClub wrote: »

I don't think the matter is that simple at all. Many of the walking tracks "owned" by Coillte, are public right of ways and have been so for hundreds of years. On that basis, I don't agree that some makey up public sector quango rules, can just override the right of someone to use a public right of way at any particular time that they may wish to.

These are not makey-up rules. The Coillte bye-laws are made by statutory instrument, signed by the Minister for Agriculture and laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas. So we already have rules similar to those proposed for NI in place.

It's the same old approach to everything in this country, when scum are abusing amenities, deprive the whole community of the amenity rather than deal effectively with said scum.

Quite.

Needler

Fecking Hell. Every hobby I ever choose to take up seems to have The Man pushing me down. My bloody tent hasn't arrived yet and they're already out to spoil my fun

A few years from now we'll all be forced to live in a perfectly safe bubble and not allowed to step outside it.

preacherman

Judge wrote: »

These are not makey-up rules. The Coillte bye-laws are made by statutory instrument, signed by the Minister for Agriculture and laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas. So we already have rules similar to those proposed for NI in place.

Quite.

The Coillte byelaws state that the forests may be closed for operational reasons from time to time, which is undestandable as maintenance etc. has to take place but, the NI proposed byelaws include closing all forests between sunset and sunrise every single day of the year and fining anyone trespassing within these hours. In my opinion these are a completely different set of rules which include a fine. I can't see anything in our byelaws that is similar but I am happy to be corrected.

Andrew

Needler

How much are the forests in NI patrolled? sure if you're quiet and keep a low profile you can go without being spotted. Twould make things more exciting in a way I think although there is nothing I hate more than stupid laws and the people who insist you stick to them