Pat Cox's party-hopping.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Through his career Pat Cox has stood for election as a Fianna Fail candidate, served as a Progressive Democrat TD, served in the European Parliament as an Independent, and is now joining Fine Gael solely to seek the presidential nomination. What are peoples opinions on this? I'd personally regard this as a very cynical political outlook, and a sign of a lack of loyalty or integrity. It would certainly decrease any chance of me voting for him (Not that there was much to begin with).

Lockstep

Yeah, I'm always a bit dubious about party-hoppers. I can totally understand those who joined a party in error and switch later on (people's personal ideologies change) but as a party's popularity waxes and wanes you can often see a person's true colours.

Opportunism and repeated party-hopping would make me much less likely to vote for someone. Including Pat Cox.

later12

I think I would be more cynical were Pat Cox seeking a political office.

Arguably, for his part, he could reasonably suggest that he is simply doing what he needs to do to secure a nomination. It doesn't necessarily mean that he will be a Fine Gael candidate (were he to succeed to nomination) in the active sense, just as Mary Robinson was not really a thoroughgoing Labour nominee in 1990.

Also, the President's is a non political office, and is - in theory - supposed to be impartial. As such, perhaps Pat Cox could argue that having had a foot in the door of various parties affords a rounded advantage to his candidacy. But also, it is a non political office and the nominating party shouldn't necessarily be very relevant.

anymore

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Through his career Pat Cox has stood for election as a Fianna Fail candidate, served as a Progressive Democrat TD, served in the European Parliament as an Independent, and is now joining Fine Gael solely to seek the presidential nomination. What are peoples opinions on this? I'd personally regard this as a very cynical political outlook, and a sign of a lack of loyalty or integrity. It would certainly decrease any chance of me voting for him (Not that there was much to begin with).[/QUOT
He remiinds me of Eoghan harris !

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

anymore wrote: »

He remiinds me of Eoghan harris !

It would be funny if he was a former sticky.

Kristopherus

The more he hops, the less likely he is to get a FG nomination, IMO. He appears to be more a Me Feiner going for any opportunity he can to gain high office. Pomposity is ingrained in his mindset almost to the point of him declaring that he is entitled to the Presidency:eek::eek:

Manach

Offhand, I believe Winston Churchill moved from Tory -> Liberal -> Tory. Thus party hoping no necessarily a bad sign in a politician.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Manach wrote: »

Offhand, I believe Winston Churchill moved from Tory -> Liberal -> Tory. Thus party hoping no necessarily a bad sign in a politician.

Depends on whether you like Winston Churchill or not. He might have been a great wartime leader, but his record is far from perfect.

jimmycrackcorm

This time last year people were praying that many FF td's would have party-hopped! Personally I think it is better that politicians do not blindly serve a party policies.

If I change companies to further my career, I can hardly fault a politician for doing the same...

steelcityblues

I don't like Gay Mitchell,but at least he is an FG loyalist, and someone like him deserves the nomination nod more than Pat Cox ever will.

Liam Byrne

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

This time last year people were praying that many FF td's would have party-hopped! Personally I think it is better that politicians do not blindly serve a party policies.

If I change companies to further my career, I can hardly fault a politician for doing the same...

Agreed.

I'd have more respect for someone who refused to follow party policy blindly and walked away than someone who gave ip their principles to support a corrupt TD or keep the party whip.

That doesn't seem to apply to Cox, though.

ballsymchugh

Kristopherus wrote: »

The more he hops, the less likely he is to get a FG nomination, IMO. He appears to be more a Me Feiner going for any opportunity he can to gain high office. Pomposity is ingrained in his mindset almost to the point of him declaring that he is entitled to the Presidency:eek::eek:

someone said on newstalk breakfast during the week that it seemed like he was gifting himself to the irish people, and we should be thankful that he's thrown his hat into the ring. i'd be inclined to agree with that.
pompous understates it.

Pat D. Almighty

Certainly won't be getting my vote.

Cookie_Monster

it's a smokescreen OP, he's clearly been a Me Feiner all along

As long as he hasn't throw out his own core political belief or compromised then just to join a different party I think it's ok, FF, PD and FG are pretty much the same entity anyhow.

kippy

Why should the president of the country HAVE to be associated with a political party?
The whole presidential thing needs to be overhauled, the age limit, the nomination process, the role itself even.

On topic, Cox is just a political slut. Getting into bed with whichever party suits him at the time.
He wont be getting my vote anyhow.

The_Minister

Why is Cox's party-hopping a bad thing?

He stood for Fianna Fail as a councillor, and then ten years later ran for the Progressive Democrats. He wasn't active in Fianna Fail, and then left and ran for the PDs because (1) He hated Haughey and (2) He is very socially liberal, and didn't like many of Fianna Fail's positions.

He left the PDs because he was shafted in the leadership contest (and even many of the PD heads would have admitted it was unfair), and because later the party wanted him to resign as MEP and he loved working in Europe.

He has been an Independent ever since, and as Independent became President of the European Parliament.

Now he is becoming a member of Fine gael, admittedly for the reason of running for President, but in fairness, FG are probably the party closest to his beliefs at this point.


I don't see why this is a big deal - so far there have been good reasons behind all his moves.

JonathanAnon

I am shocked that somebody who is supposedly politically astute thinks that the people of Ireland would vote for him anyway, never mind the fact that he has cynically joined a political party purely to get their backing (i.e. not because he supports their policies).... He's just like Tom Parlon... seems like neither let principles get in the way, when they have a career that needs to be progressed...

I would reckon that neither he nor David Norris have a chance in hell of being elected. If Gay Mitchell wasnt so irritable and cantankerous I'd probably vote for him... But at least he is a normal Irish man of principle, not some aloof academic or member of the political elite.. ..

kippy

The_Minister wrote: »

Why is Cox's party-hopping a bad thing?

He stood for Fianna Fail as a councillor, and then ten years later ran for the Progressive Democrats. He wasn't active in Fianna Fail, and then left and ran for the PDs because (1) He hated Haughey and (2) He is very socially liberal, and didn't like many of Fianna Fail's positions.

He left the PDs because he was shafted in the leadership contest (and even many of the PD heads would have admitted it was unfair), and because later the party wanted him to resign as MEP and he loved working in Europe.

He has been an Independent ever since, and as Independent became President of the European Parliament.

Now he is becoming a member of Fine gael, admittedly for the reason of running for President, but in fairness, FG are probably the party closest to his beliefs at this point.


I don't see why this is a big deal - so far there have been good reasons behind all his moves.

Some, not all, would say that he aligns himself with the "party" of choice at the time.....that suits him best.

HellFireClub

later10 wrote: »

I think I would be more cynical were Pat Cox seeking a political office.

Arguably, for his part, he could reasonably suggest that he is simply doing what he needs to do to secure a nomination. It doesn't necessarily mean that he will be a Fine Gael candidate (were he to succeed to nomination) in the active sense, just as Mary Robinson was not really a thoroughgoing Labour nominee in 1990.

Also, the President's is a non political office, and is - in theory - supposed to be impartial. As such, perhaps Pat Cox could argue that having had a foot in the door of various parties affords a rounded advantage to his candidacy. But also, it is a non political office and the nominating party shouldn't necessarily be very relevant.

It's not like the man is poor. Him joining FG is a strategic move on his part to try to insulate himself from the financial cost of landing what could probably be called the handiest number in Ireland, and he know's that he lacks the kind of charisma, imagination or personality that would allow him to get elected on his own merit, without the influence of a large party machine.

It absolutely sickens me that this guy has the gall to put himself up for election to any office in this state. He is a disgrace, every policy he has foisted and pushed upon this country as part of his precious EU vanity project has been an utter and abject failure and the results are now there in every house in the country for people to witness.

HellFireClub

He is the Gok Wan of Irish politics, whatever his political fashion of the day might be, he'll wear it, no matter how stupid it makes him look...

Kumejima

Pat always talks to the irish public like he's explaining algebra to a....particularly....dull.....child.....

ebbsy

Will he get the FG nomination ahead of Mitchell ?

Unlikely.

JonathanAnon

ebbsy wrote: »

Will he get the FG nomination ahead of Mitchell ?
Unlikely.

I really dont understand how/why FG are allowing this to happen.. Gay Mitchell said that "everybody" is welcome to join the party, when he was asked about what he thinks of Pat Cox joining the party (given his background).... but you would have to think that Pat Cox would NOT have joined FG unless he has some assurance that he would be given support to run for the Presidency...

I cant imagine many of the lifelong FG supporters voting for a pompous ex Fianna Fáiler, and I dont know WHY Enda would even want him associated with the party... I cant imagine it would be good for the FG party to have this lad as President..

Het-Field

ebbsy wrote: »

Will he get the FG nomination ahead of Mitchell ?

Unlikely.

That would be a shame.

There are ancilliary benefits going for FG if they select Pat Cox.

Although cerebral, boring and rather uninspiring, Gay Mitchell is far more polarising than Cox. When I say polarising, I mean to the extent that Mitchell is a die-hard Fine Gaeler. Cox's candidacy, while under the FG banner, will be seen as "Indepedent Fine Gael", to the extent that Cox has displayed sympathies with all parties with a finger in the "right wing pie". If FF choose not to run a candidate, I could see a blind eye being turned to members who choose to canvass for Cox. In the wake of Lisbon II, many members of the Green Party became firm fans of Cox, and they would be willing to work for him in a Presidential race. It is almost a dead cert that former members of the Progressive Democrats would side with Cox, and would have little compunction in getting out and working for him.

FG would also benefit from a swell in temporary footsoldiers who would arrive from other entites, and be willing to put their shoulder to the wheel for Cox. These include the footsoldiers who were behind Ireland For Europe. FG would not benefit from the same if they select a candidate like Mitchell, who will inspire nobody outside of the party ranks. This would make their job far harder, as they would have to stretch their manpower far further.

This independence would also lead to a greater likelyhood of the FF/GP/PD public continuing to "lend" their votes to FG. Cox's anticedents allow for these people to morally justify their decision to vote for him. Remember, he was a Fianna Failer, and was helping them out as recently as the European Parliment Elections in 2009. It as not as though FF cannot claim him as their own to a certain extent.

It is arguable that Cox can be condescending, and a walking metaphor, however, he is more inspiring, and has a greater legacy than Gay Mitchell. He also has the experience of debating credibly on a wide variety of issues, and is seen as a common-sensical individual. Mitchell would be hammered on style in debate by D.Higgins and Norris. His weak "Dublinesque" accent is also likely to annoy those who are non Dubs. He also has a record of performing fairly ordinairly in debate. A prime example of this was a poor performance in a debate in The Weston Hotel in June 2008 prior to Lisbon I. Mitchell will not be "loaned" votes by die-in-the wool FFers, these votes will go to independent candidates like Mary Davis, or D.Higgins. Socially liberal ex-PDs and GP members will not vote for him en masse, preferring the social liberalism of David Norris. He will have to appeal to the FG base, and he will be in for a war against the other candidates to win.

I am not saying that Cox is a dead cert. Far from it. However, I believe Cox is likely to garner the support of a cross-section of ideologies, and party loyalists. I believe he does not have the emotional party baggage of Mitchell, and I believe he will perform better in debate. I also believe the selection of Cox will allow FG to utilise the help of many individuals, who would not work for FG under other circumstances.

anymore

Manach wrote: »

Offhand, I believe Winston Churchill moved from Tory -> Liberal -> Tory. Thus party hoping no necessarily a bad sign in a politician.

Churchill was a brandy sozzled old fart whose attempted interferring in the war planning, in the second World war, was far more of a hinderance than has ever been officially acknowledged. Even Kevin Myers detests Churchill !
Cox is no Churchill, regardess of how you view Churchill !

anymore

Het-Field wrote: »

That would be a shame.

There are ancilliary benefits going for FG if they select Pat Cox.

Although cerebral, boring and rather uninspiring, Gay Mitchell is far more polarising than Cox. When I say polarising, I mean to the extent that Mitchell is a die-hard Fine Gaeler. Cox's candidacy, while under the FG banner, will be seen as "Indepedent Fine Gael", to the extent that Cox has displayed sympathies with all parties with a finger in the "right wing pie". If FF choose not to run a candidate, I could see a blind eye being turned to members who choose to canvass for Cox. In the wake of Lisbon II, many members of the Green Party became firm fans of Cox, and they would be willing to work for him in a Presidential race. It is almost a dead cert that former members of the Progressive Democrats would side with Cox, and would have little compunction in getting out and working for him.

FG would also benefit from a swell in temporary footsoldiers who would arrive from other entites, and be willing to put their shoulder to the wheel for Cox. These include the footsoldiers who were behind Ireland For Europe. FG would not benefit from the same if they select a candidate like Mitchell, who will inspire nobody outside of the party ranks. This would make their job far harder, as they would have to stretch their manpower far further.

This independence would also lead to a greater likelyhood of the FF/GP/PD public continuing to "lend" their votes to FG. Cox's anticedents allow for these people to morally justify their decision to vote for him. Remember, he was a Fianna Failer, and was helping them out as recently as the European Parliment Elections in 2009. It as not as though FF cannot claim him as their own to a certain extent.

It is arguable that Cox can be condescending, and a walking metaphor, however, he is more inspiring, and has a greater legacy than Gay Mitchell. He also has the experience of debating credibly on a wide variety of issues, and is seen as a common-sensical individual. Mitchell would be hammered on style in debate by D.Higgins and Norris. His weak "Dublinesque" accent is also likely to annoy those who are non Dubs. He also has a record of performing fairly ordinairly in debate. A prime example of this was a poor performance in a debate in The Weston Hotel in June 2008 prior to Lisbon I. Mitchell will not be "loaned" votes by die-in-the wool FFers, these votes will go to independent candidates like Mary Davis, or D.Higgins. Socially liberal ex-PDs and GP members will not vote for him en masse, preferring the social liberalism of David Norris. He will have to appeal to the FG base, and he will be in for a war against the other candidates to win.

I am not saying that Cox is a dead cert. Far from it. However, I believe Cox is likely to garner the support of a cross-section of ideologies, and party loyalists. I believe he does not have the emotional party baggage of Mitchell, and I believe he will perform better in debate. I also believe the selection of Cox will allow FG to utilise the help of many individuals, who would not work for FG under other circumstances.

Cox may not have the emotional baggage of Mitchell as you say, but hwat he has is the image of being the trouble shooter for american Multi nationals and a man who does what is best for Pat Cox. I wonder how he would survive intense examination of his career ?

Het-Field

anymore wrote: »

Cox may not have the emotional baggage of Mitchell as you say, but hwat he has is the image of being the trouble shooter for american Multi nationals?

While I will admit he has the reputation as an unwavering europhile. I dont think your attempt to paint him as a Dick Cheneyesque individual will have any relevance in any Presidential debates. Thus, I think he will he will not face such questions from the media, or the public. His links to the European Union, and his defence of the ECB is the only thing which may come against him in terms of past dealings.

anymore wrote: »

and a man who does what is best for Pat Cox.?

That will be a little more interesting. However, I dont believe the issue of "party-hopping" will be considered as part of Cox acting in self-interest. He also ran the Ireland For Europe Campaign with little recompense from the Government of the Day. In fact, the morning after the Treaty was passed, the Sindo used a picture of Bertie Ahern, and another of Brian Cowen while carrying the story. It is also questionable whether his departure from the PDs in April 1994 was "best for Pat Cox". If he had lost that election, he would have lost everything. Dont forget, he resigned his Dail Seat, and resigned from the PDs. Defeat in the Euros would have consigned him to the dustbin of Irish Political History. It was a risk, but it paid off. In retrospect, it was a very suave move, but at the time, it was high risk.

anymore wrote: »

I wonder how he would survive intense examination of his career ?

Each candidate will have to survive such scrutiny. Shots have already been fired at David Norris, and such shots are likely to take a far greater toll, as the same shots are relevant to apparently controversial views which Norris holds. Mitchell will have to survive questions regarding his capability to hold such office. He has never achieved ministerial rank, he was beaten for the leadership of a decimated FG party, and has been out of Ireland for nearly 7 years. McGuinness has no record in Ireland beyond her television exploits.

anymore

Het-Field wrote: »

While I will admit he has the reputation as an unwavering europhile. I dont think your attempt to paint him as a Dick Cheneyesque individual will have any relevance in any Presidential debates. Thus, I think he will he will not face such questions from the media, or the public. His links to the European Union, and his defence of the ECB is the only thing which may come against him in terms of past dealings.



That will be a little more interesting. However, I dont believe the issue of "party-hopping" will be considered as part of Cox acting in self-interest. He also ran the Ireland For Europe Campaign with little recompense from the Government of the Day. In fact, the morning after the Treaty was passed, the Sindo used a picture of Bertie Ahern, and another of Brian Cowen while carrying the story. It is also questionable whether his departure from the PDs in April 1994 was "best for Pat Cox". If he had lost that election, he would have lost everything. Dont forget, he resigned his Dail Seat, and resigned from the PDs. Defeat in the Euros would have consigned him to the dustbin of Irish Political History. It was a risk, but it paid off. In retrospect, it was a very suave move, but at the time, it was high risk.



Each candidate will have to survive such scrutiny. Shots have already been fired at David Norris, and such shots are likely to take a far greater toll, as the same shots are relevant to apparently controversial views which Norris holds. Mitchell will have to survive questions regarding his capability to hold such office. He has never achieved ministerial rank, he was beaten for the leadership of a decimated FG party, and has been out of Ireland for nearly 7 years. McGuinness has no record in Ireland beyond her television exploits.

Whilst acting a paid consultant of, if my memory is right, Microsoft, he compared the EU Commission to the Soviet Union ! Unbelievable stuff from a man who was president of the EU. Cox goes where the money is. By the way I and other share my low opinion of Cox, are part of the ' public'. Thanks to Boards.ie, P.ie and other net sites, we the unwashed public no longer have to rely on O Reilly's/O Brien's propoganda organs nor on RTE/Pravda nor on the biased geraldine kennedy/john waters irish Times. Times have changed and the masses can now sidestep the proganda ! I never watch Presidential debates of G/E debates !

ascanbe

ballsymchugh wrote: »

someone said on newstalk breakfast during the week that it seemed like he was gifting himself to the irish people, and we should be thankful that he's thrown his hat into the ring. i'd be inclined to agree with that.
pompous understates it.

Hasn't he been breathing the same rarified air as our European masters for the last number of years?
Surely we should be honoured that he'd deign to act as our figurehead for a while.

BOHtox

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Through his career Pat Cox has stood for election as a Fianna Fail candidate, served as a Progressive Democrat TD, served in the European Parliament as an Independent, and is now joining Fine Gael solely to seek the presidential nomination. What are peoples opinions on this? I'd personally regard this as a very cynical political outlook, and a sign of a lack of loyalty or integrity. It would certainly decrease any chance of me voting for him (Not that there was much to begin with).

Well in fairness the PDs went bust and he then joined the party who they were in Coalition with. He then didn't like their policies and left and ran as an independent. He's now joining Fine Gael to have a go at presidency. That's hardly party-hopping

anymore

BOHtox wrote: »

Well in fairness the PDs went bust and he then joined the party who they were in Coalition with. He then didn't like their policies and left and ran as an independent. He's now joining Fine Gael to have a go at presidency. That's hardly party-hopping

Are you confusing pat cox with Ciaron Cannon ? Cox left the PDs long before the PDs went burst

Dannyboy83

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Agreed.

I'd have more respect for someone who refused to follow party policy blindly and walked away than someone who gave ip their principles to support a corrupt TD or keep the party whip.

I agree with this.
Given some of the things emerging about our political parties and politicians, we should be seeing a lot more party hopping

gizmo555

Kumejima wrote: »

Pat always talks to the irish public like he's explaining algebra to a....particularly....dull.....child.....

+1,000

Cox exudes a uniquely infuriating combination of condescension, pomposity and self-importance.

JonathanAnon

Just heard on the news there that Avril Doyle has apparently thrown her hat in the ring.. lol... This could be the most pompous, conceited bunch of candidates ever to contest an election in Ireland.. All of them seem to think they are monarchy before the election has even begun..

JonathanAnon

Kumejima wrote: »

Pat always talks to the irish public like he's explaining algebra to a....particularly....dull.....child.....

Yeah that's an excellent description.. the air of pomposity and aloofness from the guy is ridiculous.. If he wins the FG candidacy, I have know idea how they are gonna "sell" him to the normal working class people of Ireland..

steelcityblues

With Avril Doyle about to enter, I would say things will get very heated behind the scenes in FG, for the rest of summer.

anymore

steelcityblues wrote: »

With Avril Doyle about to enter, I would say things will get very heated behind the scenes in FG, for the rest of summer.

Hmmm ! Avril Doyle - is that the Avril Doyle, MEP from Co Wexford ? :rolleyes:

BOHtox

anymore wrote: »

Are you confusing pat cox with Ciaron Cannon ? Cox left the PDs long before the PDs went burst

oh maybe I am.

Breezer

anymore wrote: »

Hmmm ! Avril Doyle - is that the Avril Doyle, MEP from Co Wexford ? :rolleyes:

Avril Doyle, former MEP, from Co Wexford. Why?

anymore

Breezer wrote: »

Avril Doyle, former MEP, from Co Wexford. Why?

I remember the name from a few years ago but cant remener why ?

Breezer

anymore wrote: »

I remember the name from a few years ago but cant remener why ?

She had a bit of a spat with Mairead McGuinness when the two of them ran for the European elections in Leinster in 2004. In the end they were both elected. Doyle retired after that term.

anymore

Breezer wrote: »

She had a bit of a spat with Mairead McGuinness when the two of them ran for the European elections in Leinster in 2004. In the end they were both elected. Doyle retired after that term.

was there something about cars ?

Breezer

anymore wrote: »

was there something about cars ?

I've no idea. My understanding is that Doyle felt McGuinness would take votes away from her and neither would get a quota.