Fears over loyalist ceasefire

Wolfe Tone

A senior unionist has raised fears loyalists could be planning to target dissident republicans.

The politician, speaking on condition of anonymity, said “an informed security source” had revealed that “elements of the UDA and UVF were looking at the dissident threat”.

The politician was not suggesting an imminent threat to the loyalist ceasefires, but expressing fears about what could happen.

“Would it result in them doing something stupid? I’m not sure,” the politician said.

He said the assessment was that the UDA was stable but the UVF was “under pressure” to launch an attack.

He pointed to a combination of factors — dissident activity, HET investigations and speculation about a “supergrass” trial involving a one-time senior UVF figure close to the decision-making centre of the organisation.

He warned: “If you pick that scab you infect it.”

He said the UVF could be thinking: “If you strike, do you get more Government sympathy?”

A paramilitary leadership figure told this newspaper the Combined Loyalist Military Command (CLMC) has not met.

“It’s being talked about,” he continued. “But it hasn’t happened yet.”

Asked about the purpose of any such meeting, he replied: “All of those things mentioned could be on the agenda.”

The CLMC is an umbrella loyalist leadership that pulls together the UDA, UVF and associated Red Hand Commando.

It was the title under which the loyalist ceasefire was announced in October 1994, and the paramilitary structure was used to plan moves towards decommissioning.

On the question of continuing investigations into pre-ceasefire and pre-Good Friday Agreement violence, a paramilitary leadership figure said: “Everybody is worried about the HET.

“It needs to be looked at.”

Asked was there a specific nervousness within the UVF about these investigations, he replied: “There definitely is.”

The paramilitary source said the organisation also had internal problems at leadership level, particularly in east Belfast.

“He’s just doing his own thing,” the source said, in a reference to the UVF leader in that part of the city.

There was an example of this in the period leading up to the recent Stormont and local government elections when two UVF murals were painted on the Newtownards Road in east Belfast.

They showed men in balaclavas carrying guns — paintings designed to deliver a war message.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/fears-over-loyalist-ceasefire-16012270.html

If the sectarian killers do anything it could be the very thing which makes the situation deteriorate even faster. Any such actions would be disastrous for the peace process.

Their tactic to "strike back" at physical force republicans would no doubt be what it always was, find some catholics and kill them. They are a threat lurking in the shadows, they have never disbanded.

Probably a nothing story, but the message is loud and clear, that unlike the PIRA, "they haven't gone away you know"

Jelle1880

I'm surprised it took this long, I expected loyalist reprisal earlier.

They've been remarkably calm imo, in the face of what has happened.

edit: Looks like scaremongering to me.
'Maybe, I don't know, could be,...'

rounding tattenham Corner

if it happened the PIRA could go back to what it does best putting bombs in pubs. Plus side to that would be media ban on Gerry Adams awful voice put back in place:D

maccored

if there's a 'loyalist reprisal', it wont affect dissident republicans - it'll be aimed at the nearest taigue that happens to chance by.

Nothing new there then ....

Liam Byrne

Is this the overall ceasefire or one that can be conveniently blamed on "dissidents", creating the best of both worlds for those on that "side" ?

I'm saddened but not surprised given the stuff that the IRA spin-offs have been up to.

Would love to see someone keep the high moral ground, but it was always going to be difficult to control those with a penchant for violence from retaliating.

Wolfe Tone

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Is this the overall ceasefire or one that can be conveniently blamed on "dissidents", creating the best of both worlds for those on that "side" ?

I'm saddened but not surprised given the stuff that the IRA spin-offs have been up to.

Would love to see someone keep the high moral ground, but it was always going to be difficult to control those with a penchant for violence from retaliating.

What exactly do you mean there Liam?

Dissident loyalists? There are already a few kicking around, not up to much besides criminality mind.

Lockstep

rounding tattenham Corner wrote: »

if it happened the PIRA could go back to what it does best putting bombs in pubs. Plus side to that would be media ban on Gerry Adams awful voice put back in place:D

Careful now...

Corsendonk

Each side seems to have supporters that miss the "good old days" and then you have the kids bored out of their minds hearing all the good old days stories and wanting a bit of the action so not really surprised that we have breakaway groups.

Wolfe Tone

Corsendonk wrote: »

Each side seems to have supporters that miss the "good old days" and then you have the kids bored out of their minds hearing all the good old days stories and wanting a bit of the action so not really surprised that we have breakaway groups.

There was nothing good about the "good old days".

The "dissident" republicans believe that SF have made the pain and suffering of the "good old days" a waste, a betrayal to those who fought and died... All for nothing. All that for what seems to basically be Sunningdale? I wouldn't agree with them, but I see their point.

paky

i dont think such scum would have the capacity to carry out an attack, never mind the intellect. it would have too far reaching consequences if such an attack did occur and may implicate the psni in collusion, which no one could afford. talken sh.ite is what i say

Liam Byrne

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

What exactly do you mean there Liam?

Dissident loyalists? There are already a few kicking around, not up to much besides criminality mind.

Just asking if those supposedly threatening to return to violence are the main group or just a splinter group that would allow the main group to claim that their ceasefire was intact.

A bit like the IRA still got "credit" for the ceasefire being intact even when their members murdered Gardai, or whatever.

If it's a "dissident" group, then I'd hope that you would treat like with like.

Wolfe Tone

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Just asking if those supposedly threatening to return to violence are the main group or just a splinter group that would allow the main group to claim that their ceasefire was intact.

A bit like the IRA still got "credit" for the ceasefire being intact even when their members murdered Gardai, or whatever.

If it's a "dissident" group, then I'd hope that you would treat like with like.

Apparently its the main groups... That said I think its a veiled threat at the HET investigations.

FTA69

It was only a matter of time before this issue came up. Those groups currently attempting to prosecute an armed campaign should bear in mind that if the situation escalates (which is what they want) then Loyalist violence will be an inevitable part of that.

Liam Byrne

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Apparently its the main groups... That said I think its a veiled threat at the HET investigations.

Your original post seemed to have a lot of extra potency behind it, calling them "sectarian killers" and using phrases like "find some catholics and kill them".

That "sectarian killers" phrase applies to the IRA and all other murderous criminal organisations who operate under the pretence of "winning" Ireland.

We've asked them all to go away.

If one "side" doesn't "go away" because they didn't get their own way, then it's perfectly understandable that the other "side" will retaliate.

Wolfe Tone

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Your original post seemed to have a lot of extra potency behind it, calling them "sectarian killers" and using phrases like "find some catholics and kill them".

That "sectarian killers" phrase applies to the IRA and all other murderous criminal organisations who operate under the pretence of "winning" Ireland.

We've asked them all to go away.

If one "side" doesn't "go away" because they didn't get their own way, then it's perfectly understandable that the other "side" will retaliate.

Do you disagree with anything I said?

Liam Byrne

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Do you disagree with anything I said?

I am just querying why you use that language when only talking about one "side".

Jelle1880

FTA69 wrote: »

It was only a matter of time before this issue came up. Those groups currently attempting to prosecute an armed campaign should bear in mind that if the situation escalates (which is what they want) then Loyalist violence will be an inevitable part of that.

I believe they want exactly that.

An escalation of violence will lead to more 'recruits' on both sides.

Wolfe Tone

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I am just querying why you use that language when only talking about one "side".

I just made a thread giving out about the IRAs sectarian killings.

Everything I said in the OP here is 100% true and you know it, stop looking for something to take issue with.

Your original post seemed to have a lot of extra potency behind it, calling them "sectarian killers" and using phrases like "find some catholics and kill them".

Both those things are true. Loyalist paramilitaries where almost exclusively sectarian killers(there a thread with facts and figures) and there MO was to simply find a catholic an kill them as a way to "strike back". As I said that is factually correct, you know it. But you needed to somehow find a way to take issue with me being a republican.

Liam Byrne

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I just made a thread giving out about the IRAs sectarian killings.

Everything I said in the OP here is 100% true and you know it, stop looking for something to take issue with.


Both those things are true. Loyalist paramilitaries where almost exclusively sectarian killers(there a thread with facts and figures) and there MO was to simply find a catholic an kill them as a way to "strike back". As I said that is factually correct, you know it. But you needed to somehow find a way to take issue with me being a republican.

I have no issue whatsoever with you "being a republican".

I have an issue if you support terrorism and/or if you don't view or comment on equivalent activities equally.

Wolfe Tone

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I have no issue whatsoever with you "being a republican".

I have an issue if you support terrorism and/or if you don't view or comment on equivalent activities equally.

Do you feel that loyalist paramilitaries are sectarian killers and that their MO was simply to kill random catholics? I'm pretty sure you do. I just made a thread calling similar IRA actions (blatant sectarian killings) a "disgrace". I don't engage in tabloid heading style condemnations.
"Sectarian killers" is an apt description. As is my suggestion of what their retaliation would be.

My opinions of the PIRA etc, are irrelevant here. I started a thread about the possibility/warning of resurgent loyalist paramilitaries, not about the IRA. You saw who the poster was, and are now seeking to make this thread about me and/or SF and the PIRA, thus making this thread descend into the clusterfcuk all of us must (I am anyway) be very tired of. You already worked in the Godwin of northern debates, Gerry McCabe, (only 11 posts in!) just try and keep it on topic will you?

blahfckingblah

liam it appears to me that rather than to talk about the topic at hand in these type threads, you always bring the thread back to that same gerry mccabe topic whether or not it is relevent to the opening post. its very easy to use an isolated incident to try to reinforce your point. the fact is the PIRA are gone so that "side" as you put it is gone.

http://www.boards.ie/search/?q=gerry+mccabe&f=&subforums=1&u=84799&title=&threads=&date_from=&date_to=&sort=newest this is the amount of times you have used the same argument to argue your point

PatricaMcKay

Liam Byrne wrote: »

A bit like the IRA still got "credit" for the ceasefire being intact even when their members murdered Gardai, or whatever.

Did the Gardai not murder more Republicans than Republicans kill Gardai?

Liam Byrne

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

Did the Gardai not murder more Republicans than Republicans kill Gardai?

Doing their job protecting us from those seeking to murder us. Gardai have a mandate and duty; "republicans" do not.

Anyway, as Wolfe Tone mentioned, my input is dragging this off-topic, so I'll bow out, leaving my earlier comments about retaliation by loyalists being unwelcome but perfectly understandable given that some (former) IRA members refused to stop the intimidation and murder under whatever umbrella.

Hopefully common sense will prevail and both "sides" will let the third "side" - those who want peace - win out and finally bring normality to this island.

end a eknny

surely they are too busy fighting each other for control of the drugs trade to be going looking for innocent catholics to murder

TOMASJ

I dont think the latest Loyalist threat will amount to much,
because in the past they had backing and help from the British army the RUC the UDR, + numerous other murky murder squads,
without which they would have been a useless mob of druggies

blahfckingblah

end a eknny wrote: »

surely they are too busy fighting each other for control of the drugs trade to be going looking for innocent catholics to murder

i literally had that typed word for word and decided against posting it

LondonIrish90

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Do you feel that loyalist paramilitaries are sectarian killers and that their MO was simply to kill random catholics? I'm pretty sure you do. I just made a thread calling similar IRA actions (blatant sectarian killings) a "disgrace". I don't engage in tabloid heading style condemnations.
"Sectarian killers" is an apt description. As is my suggestion of what their retaliation would be.

My opinions of the PIRA etc, are irrelevant here. I started a thread about the possibility/warning of resurgent loyalist paramilitaries, not about the IRA. You saw who the poster was, and are now seeking to make this thread about me and/or SF and the PIRA, thus making this thread descend into the clusterfcuk all of us must (I am anyway) be very tired of. You already worked in the Godwin of northern debates, Gerry McCabe, (only 11 posts in!) just try and keep it on topic will you?

So you are a beacon of morality now, but an advocate of blowing up bits of London in the past? Why the change of heart?

getzls

FTA69 wrote: »

It was only a matter of time before this issue came up. Those groups currently attempting to prosecute an armed campaign should bear in mind that if the situation escalates (which is what they want) then Loyalist violence will be an inevitable part of that.

Not going to happen, so called senior loyalist have mainly been stupid but their not that stupid. Don't read and belive a lot of things you read in the papers.

KeithAFC

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Just asking if those supposedly threatening to return to violence are the main group or just a splinter group that would allow the main group to claim that their ceasefire was intact.

A bit like the IRA still got "credit" for the ceasefire being intact even when their members murdered Gardai, or whatever.

If it's a "dissident" group, then I'd hope that you would treat like with like.

Main group.

junder

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/fears-over-loyalist-ceasefire-16012270.html

If the sectarian killers do anything it could be the very thing which makes the situation deteriorate even faster. Any such actions would be disastrous for the peace process.

Their tactic to "strike back" at physical force republicans would no doubt be what it always was, find some catholics and kill them. They are a threat lurking in the shadows, they have never disbanded.

Probably a nothing story, but the message is loud and clear, that unlike the PIRA, "they haven't gone away you know"

Total scaremongering, the clmc does not exist, it was disbanded over a decade ago And there is no reason for it to be reformed.