Sold Horse and trouble to get money from buyer

Logos1997

Hi All , I posted the following text in the legal discussion corner too and someone advised me to post this here ...so here it goes ...I would like to get some advise on what to do in my following case if you don't mind .

I sold my mare just 2 Weeks before Easter. This man arrived at my yard together with a student to look at my mare ( I am a privat horse keeper and had to sell this mare due to lack of time ) They where happy with what they seen and the information they got and I told them that she might not be easy to load since she never traveled before. The man said that should be fine , if she will load for now she should allways load no prob from his experiance with horses .
My mare didn't load ok at all , in fact she gave some trouble and I told them that I wouldn't blame them if they want to leave it . But they said they will keep trying anyway ...finaly we got her loaded and once in the lorry she was fine.
The man wanted to take her on trial for a couple of days and bring her back if she wouldn't suit . He left me a chueqe and I kept her book .
If he would give me the ok I would go and cash in the cheque and send him the book for change of ownership.
He rang me two days later, telling me the mare wouldn't load at all anymore , if she only sees a horse box she would go mad , but he would keep trying and see if he could work with her and then let me know .
He kept in touch with me over the next few days , keeping me informed about what a disaster this mare is around a horse box , no way she would go into one...I was a bit shocked and I realy felt sorry and guilty for the whole situation..( I owned this mare for the last 4 years and I trained her myself , she was a very quite and friendly well behaved animal , a family pet ).he told me not to worry but he couldn't keep this mare and would bring her back to me . I ripped the cheque , which I know now shouldn't have done Well honestly I expected him to come back with her next day .
Instead he called me again , told me that the only way to load this mare would be to sedate her and that she would rather kill herself then going into a horsebox, which could turn out to be very dangerous as the animal could fall in the trailer ...so what could we do ?
I asked him if he would consider in keeping her anyway and use her for breeding ( she is a fully registered Grade A ISH Mare ) and I would drop the price on her ...we came to an agreement and he told me he will be over with the money in the next few days....he never came ...and since this day he comes up with a new realy dramatic story each time I call him .
It is so anoying at this stage ! I don't know if they are only fake stories or if they are actually true , some of them are so outragous
This is going on for 8 weeks now and I am at a point where feel like getting realy angry with him and thinking of going to the guards and report him ( so far I tried to be friendly and giving him more and more time here and there ).
The last story he told me was , that his student jumped at the grand prix show jumping in Dublin on the last Bank Holliday monday and she took a realy bad fall and broke a bone in her neck . She was holding up the show for over an hour as the paramedics got her ready for secure transport to hospital on the show grounds ( has by any chance someone here been there at this particular day and seen this happening ? Just curious ) ...he asked me for some more time since he had to sort out a few things and he would call me on Sunday on when to meet me to give my money ....well he never did...I tried to call him last Monday , he didn't answer the phone so I left a text , he promissed to call me after lunch ....again no call .
I then send him a Text again and asked him to come back to me on when he is going to pay me ...no answer since. I am not sure what to do next ...my hubby says I should go to the gardai ..he is afraid that in case anything happens with this horse , that she might brake out or do harm or so , that we will be made responsible for it ( she is mikrochiped and I am her owner ) Do I have to worry about this ?
Can anyone give me some advise ? What would you do in this case ? Should I call or text him and give him a limit or I would report this horse as stolen otherwise ? Or would that be to much ? Should I go to the Gardai straight away ...or even give him more time ??
I am so worried at this stage that I don't know what to do

Sorry for the long rant

missloulou

Hi there,

What a terrible situation, but I honestly think he is taking you for a ride if you excuse the pun.

Firstly I would be horrified if someone was riding my horse and injured it and never bothered to inform me, I would expect to be called straight away. Breaking a bone in her neck could have major problems for the mare in the future depending on the severity of the injury.

Secondly, If the mare really is such a pain to get loaded in a box how is he getting her to the shows?

If it was me I would be texting him saying the deal is off, you have decided to keep her and you want her delivered back within a week or tell him to name a day and you arrange transport. If he doesn't come back to you report her as stolen. When you have her back assess if the neck is actually injured, treat it if possible and then try to find a decent person to sell her to.

Would you honestly like your mare to live out her days with such a messer?

Ave Sodalis

OP that man's just playing with you. Do you know where he lives? If not, I would find out and see proof that the horse doesn't load. If he refuses to give details, I would tell him you want a decision in a week whether or not he is taking the horse. If he hasn't given you a decision, go to the Gardai and report theft. 8 weeks is too long for a trial that was only meant to last a few days.
The truth is, if he doesn't give you back something that is yours and he hasn't paid for, it's stolen...

convert

That sounds like a really difficult situation to be in, and I hope it works out for you.

Mod hat on: Unfortunately we can't give you legal advice here, so just remember that everything here is just opinion. If you are looking for legal advice, your best bet is to contact a solicitor or the gardai.

DougalZ

Ring this dealer and tell him you want your horse back within 24 hours, no excuses. If this doesn't happen organise 2 or 3 people to help you load and transport the mare. Ring the gaurds and tell them about your situation and that you are now going to reclaim your property and for them to meet you in this dealers yard so no trouble insues. This happened to a friend of mine last year and it wouldn't surpise me if it was the same dealer involved. At no time let the dealer know what you are up to as the mare might be shifted to another location.

MDFM

I'm a little confused here - you say she hadnt travelled before? But she is a grade A mare??
He claims she doesnt load - how did he get her to the show then so as to jump her? On competing at the show - is she registered to jump this year, so has she tickets etc? Did you give him your tickets to jump on?
Its a very tricky situation you are in, I don't know what you can do really, other than the ball is in his court really, he has the horse in his possession, its possibily something he has a reputation for doing aswell.
All the best, i hope you get her back in one piece soon.

Logos1997

Thanks all,

@ Convert , I know you can not give any legal advise , but it's good to get some more opinions on this from other horsey folks ...


Regarding my horses ( I own two ) I am rather a very privat person, I just enjoy my horses here at home and take my older horse out for hacks in our area. I used to spend a lot of time in a nearby equestrian centre and took part in hunting but since I had my kids I don't have the time anymore and since I startet going back to college the preassure realy is on and I had to part from my mare since she is still young and needs more training and I just don't have the time ...which is realy sad because she is that type of a horse that I would have kept forever
I don't have a horse box , not even a car that would be able to pull one ...and he knows that .
The last time we spoke ( 1week ago ) he said that I could come over and take her back if I want and that he wouldn't mind me calling over ...I told him that I have no way of transporting her and the deal was in the beginning that he would bring her back if she didn't suit.

He told me that he tried loading her several times after the mare arrived at his yard , but he didn't keep at it ..only tried for a couple of minutes each time because he didn't have the time and each time he tried it got worse ...from my point of few it was him that messed her up the way she is now ...by giving in to her every time she refuses going into the box ...what would one expect ??:mad: I know her very well I had her for so long since she was 9 month old , she is more like a dog then a horse , my daughter (6) sat on her and I lead her around in the paddock ...she would act a bit funny with new things in the beginning but nothing major ...therefore I don't understand this loading issue at all ...

True, with a problem like this he would not be able to bring her to shows , that is why I droped the price on her and he decided to keep her for breeding and finaly use her for lessons and hacking out in the fields.
He said he was happy with that and I again told him if there is a problem with that I would still take her back , even if that means he had to sedate her to get her loaded ...

He gave me an address when he was here to collect the mare, if it is a real one I don't know ...I googled it since it is a stud farm but the only information on it is that the place is up for sale it is about 2 hours away from where I live.

@ DougalZ
Do you know the name of this dealer ? PM me if you like


I will try and call him today again , or text him if he doesn't answer his phone and keep you informed

Thank you

Logos1997

MDFM wrote: »

I'm a little confused here - you say she hadnt travelled before? But she is a grade A mare??
He claims she doesnt load - how did he get her to the show then so as to jump her? On competing at the show - is she registered to jump this year, so has she tickets etc? Did you give him your tickets to jump on?
Its a very tricky situation you are in, I don't know what you can do really, other than the ball is in his court really, he has the horse in his possession, its possibily something he has a reputation for doing aswell.
All the best, i hope you get her back in one piece soon.

Yes she is fully registered as a section A mare with the Irish horse board .

Sorry , no he didn't bring my mare to that show and he didn't jump her there ...this was a different situation , the last story he told me why he couldn't pay for the mare at the minute ...because this girl fell of one of his horses jumping at the Grand Prix and she broke a bone in her neck ( the girl ) and she now is in hospital , for this reason he has no time to come over or post a cheque even to pay for my mare
Sorry for the confusion , hope it is clear now ;)

My mare did travel before , that was when she was brought over to me when I bought her ...so had been in a horse box before , but a long time ago ..that's why I said she is not used to it but I honestly never thought she would react like the way she did and it wouldn't be a big issue to get her used to it again

convert

Logos1997 wrote: »

@ Convert , I know you can not give any legal advise , but it's good to get some more opinions on this from other horsey folks ...

No problem, we just have to be careful!

Is the guy's yard far from where you're based? Do you know anybody who has a box who'd collect her and help load her with you? At this stage it might be best just to bring her home rather than proceed with the sale. It may even be worth hiring a transporter to bring the mare home for you - they'd also be used to dealing with horses who are difficult to load, and so would be good in a situation like this. My friend knows a horse transporter who is well recommended and does a lot of transporting across Europe. You can PM me if you'd like the name.

Logos1997

convert wrote: »

No problem, we just have to be careful!

Is the guy's yard far from where you're based? Do you know anybody who has a box who'd collect her and help load her with you? At this stage it might be best just to bring her home rather than proceed with the sale. It may even be worth hiring a transporter to bring the mare home for you - they'd also be used to dealing with horses who are difficult to load, and so would be good in a situation like this. My friend knows a horse transporter who is well recommended and does a lot of transporting across Europe. You can PM me if you'd like the name.

The yard is about 2 hours away from where we live ...if the address he gave me is right ...I tried to trace the address online, because he told me it is a professional stud and show jumping yard ....I thought there must be some information about it ....but all I am getting is that the house is up for sale .
The last time I spoke to him was 1 week ago and I told him that I would take her back if he doesn't want her but then he said he will be over with the cheque soon and he would call me back , which he failed to do ...I tried to call him several times in the last few days and today but no answer..

I think I nearly have no other option then going to report him at the gardai station and arange things to get this sorted out a different way .

Would you mind PM me the number of this horse transporter guy ...there is one near by me but I am not sure how experianced he is with difficult horses , so no harm to have a second options if it has to come to that

Esroh

Op
First chance you get go over and ask to see your mare. You still have her passport and have not been paid so go see her.
If she is there and healthy then go home and over the next week organise transport and go get her.
If you are refused access to her then you will have to think about going down a legal route.

Dont be listening to his loading stories. She loaded with a bit of effort in your yard and I am sure will do again in his
Also do not bring down your price thats what he wants,

ppink

OP I really dont understand if this mare is a "pet" how you would be happy leaving her in this situation, time or no time.

I am at a loss as to why she will not load either. Can you not put time into her to get her to relax and at least improve her chances of a good life elsewhere? There are loads of different techniques online to deal with situations like this.
From what you are saying abotu the whole situation I would be more worried for my pet horse that I had trained since she was 9 months old than the money.

Can you not travel to his yard and put in a couple of hours yourself to help this mare?

amdublin

Borrow a box and go collect your horse.

convert

The OP sought advice as to the best means to resolve the situation. They did not ask to be judged on their decision to sell their mare, nor should they receive a lecture as to the merits of selling their horse.

convert

ppink wrote: »

I am at a loss as to why she will not load either.

Lots of horses are difficult to load, especially if they haven't travelled much before. It can often take a long time for horses to gain confidence while being loaded and travelled, regardless of what methods are used to try and improve the situation. The OP said their mare had only travelled once before, so it's quite understandable as to why the mare is hesitant to load.

convert

Logos1997 wrote: »

Would you mind PM me the number of this horse transporter guy ...there is one near by me but I am not sure how experianced he is with difficult horses , so no harm to have a second options if it has to come to that

Sent you a PM.

donegal noise

Report to the gadra, theft by anyway is theft. if your getting treated this way, how is the horse getting treated? Ring the ISPCA. Make sure that they they both know about the chip and there is no Question about ownership, Dont try to cash to the bill., but keep it just in cace, The number on it has all the details of the account owner. Maybe talk to the bank and ask if this bill is good. Ask loakaly about this. Then go and get your horse with a good horsebox, with the Garda and ISPCA oficer at a time suttable for them both. Wednesday Morning is Best for garda. Bring a blingfold for horseand a shrap. If you have to hire a box the driver will know what to do.

ppink

convert wrote: »

Lots of horses are difficult to load, especially if they haven't travelled much before. It can often take a long time for horses to gain confidence while being loaded and travelled, regardless of what methods are used to try and improve the situation. The OP said their mare had only travelled once before, so it's quite understandable as to why the mare is hesitant to load.

I recently watched a 2 different sets of people preparing their young horses for the sales.
One set had them walking but would not even contemplate putting them into a box....instead sedated them on the morning prior to travelling.

the second lot had their animals walking up and down into horse boxes and lorries no issue....it just took a bit of time and patience. No shouting or roaring or big hassle.

Simple solution....borrow a box and practice and help reduce the stress on the animal. It helps to sell them as they are not going with issues.

MDFM

donegal noise wrote: »

Report to the gadra, theft by anyway is theft. if your getting treated this way, how is the horse getting treated? Ring the ISPCA. Make sure that they they both know about the chip and there is no Question about ownership, Dont try to cash to the bill., but keep it just in cace, The number on it has all the details of the account owner. Maybe talk to the bank and ask if this bill is good. Ask loakaly about this. Then go and get your horse with a good horsebox, with the Garda and ISPCA oficer at a time suttable for them both. Wednesday Morning is Best for garda. Bring a blingfold for horseand a shrap. If you have to hire a box the driver will know what to do.

ISPCA? Whats it got to do with them?? They will not be interested in getting involved unless the animal in question is reported to be in poor mistreated/abused/neglected condition. It is not in their authority to get involved in this matter. This situation is going down the route of turning into a legal matter between the owner, buyer and now by the looks of it, the Gardai.

Miss_F

If it was me I would land in the mans yard in the morning and leave either with money or horse. The yard in question is a stud/showjumping yard? near where the show was? thinking I may have an idea of d person in question. also if you no the name of the rider then go onto the sji site and get the results of the GP that will tell you all.

To clarify you mare has never been loaded? or not since you had her? if she very difficult best bet would be to blindfold her, has worked or very temperamental horses.

Logos1997

Hi All and sorry for the delay ,
I didn't get near my PC for the last couple of days so couldn't answer your posts.

@ Miss_F ...no he is not near where the show was , he is in the midlands

In the meantime he came back to me after my last post here ...and finaly I thought, I will be able to settle this ..he had me going to a shop in a town to collect a envelope, but it was all just another story again

@ ppink , Yes she was a pet and it was not easy for me to sell her, also my kids where sad too ....but would you keep a young horse that needs training just because she is a pet ? I had no time anymore to work with this horse ...in fact I should have sold her much earlier but I kept holding on to her because I loved her so much ...I hated to sell her ...But I thought it would be very selfish to keep her , knowing that she needs training and lots of attention that I wasn't able to give her anymore due to lack of time . She is a young horse that needs to be worked with and from my point of few ...pet or no pet ...if I can't give her what she needs it is my responsibility to go and look for a better home where she gets all the training and attention she needs .
This man arrived at my yard and from the way he spoke and everything I had the impression that he was a very professional man in every way .
Even when he kept in touch and told me about the problems with her , he seemd to be very concerned about the mare, trying to find a good solution allways keeping me up to date ...and then all this started .
I offered him more then only once that I would take my mare back no problem but he would have to bring her home since I have no way of transporting her ...which he knew from beginning on and it was part of the deal that he would have to bring her back if she didn't suit .
I still would take her back ...Yes I am sure I could manage somehow and
get her trained to trailer load if I can find someone who would leave me their horse box for a while ...

Anyway ...since he seems to ignore me completely ..since last Monday when he had me driving to that shop ....I just send him a message that I will report him to the gardai now ..I hope that this is going to put enough pressure on him now to either return my horse ...at this stage I wouldn't like to leave her at this place anymore, not knowing how she's been treated

ppink

I was not trying to be mean to you Logos1997 or anything like that and I am sorry if it came across that way.

from your first post if a guy came back to be and told me what a disaster my horse was I would be concerned for her thats all, especially since you had her so long and she was a pet. Its just those words would have worried me.

I have no issue with you needing to sell her either for what ever reason.

Some things bother me about loading horses into boxes thats all. I have an instant fear of people saying " Ah we'll get him in there all right" and that type of thing. I feel that with time and patience it does not have to be a nightmare for people and the horse.
I listen every few weeks to people near me from a big stud farm literally roaring their horses into lorries and I just cant stand it as it is so unnecessary.......and again all down to time probably.

is there anyone near you (dont know where you are?) who you could ask to help you get this horse and give you a day of their time to help sorting out her loading problem?

Simile

I think what esroh said is the best route to go.
Also it might be an idea to keep an eye on Done Deal in case she shows up for sale there.....