Seeking Land League Portrait, Lawrence Collection

R0C

For a long time now I've been trying to locate a picture of my Great Grandfather, a Mr P.J. [Patrick Joseph] Gordon originally from Tuam, but lived in Claremorris, County Mayo. [born 25 Jan 1839, died 10 Jun 1899]

P.J. worked alongside Charles Stewart Parnell and Michael Davitt during the Land League years sharing the stage for speeches, and also regularly sharing prison cells with them.

Recently while browsing old newspapers researching PJ, I came across the attached newspaper clipping from the Freemans Journal, 9 February 1881.

It's an advertisement mentioning that W.Lawrence has just published photographic portraits of the following leading Land League members, and my P.J. Gordon is in the list. They are available as Cartes de Visite and Cabinet size. There is also a Group Picture, which contains the 17 leading Land League members, which I imagine includes P.J. There are two sizes available in this.

I finally thought I was getting somewhere. Up to now, several historians and museums had tried to locate a photo but were not successful, but no-one was aware of these portraits.

I found the Lawrence Collection website, and read the following lines which left me immediately disappointed again: In 1916 the premises in Sackville Street was looted and burnt down during the Easter Rising. Most of the portrait negatives were destroyed.

So I will assume that my Great Grandfather's portrait may have been amongst those negatives which were destroyed in 1916. But, surely someone out there purchased the portrait at the time, and surely somewhere in Ireland, one of these portraits still exists.

I have contacted the Lawrence Collection requesting info but they never contacted me back. That has been my problem with so many museums and research avenues in Ireland up to now, they just can't be bothered to reply or call me back so I end up not being able to rule out a particular lead.

Is there any chance that some collector or museum exists somewhere in Ireland that may have had prints of the Land League members in their possession?

PJ was a traverser in the State Trials of 1881 so I'd have thought it should've been quite easy to locate a picture of him, but no such luck!

Perhaps a history buff out there can point me in the right direction. Any info appreciated! Thanks.

R0C

Also, I should add that if anyone knows of any other Land League portraits by other photographers that may contain my PJ Gordon, please let me know. I have seen mentions of other portraits of the Land Leaguers during the State Trials in books and newspapers.

The portraits mentioned on the last page [32] of this book would probably also help me along, but again, I have no idea where to locate prints today.

R0C

Any information at all on this much appreciated!

R0C

One more *bump* to this thread in case someone might see it and be able to help out. Thanks!

shanew

The Lawrence Collection consists of about 40,000 photo's on glass plates and is held by the National Library. An index to the collection is searchable online at http://www.nli.ie/en/PDBLawrS.aspx

Part of the collection has been digitized and available in the online catalogue at : http://catalogue.nli.ie/Search/Results?lookfor=&filter[]=collection%3A%22Lawrence%20Collection%22&filter[]=format%3A%22Photo%22&filter[]=digitised%3A%22Digitised%22&view=grid



Shane

R0C

Hi Shane,

I will look into that, I've done a quick search of the catalogue just now and don't see any Land League Portraits showing up, but if there are 40,000 pictures in the collection, I need to put a bit more time into searching through the database before ruling anything out.

Appreciate your reply!

CeannRua

If it's not too long a list, can you tell us which institutions you have tried already?

There is also a possibility that his name is not recorded on the photo and if not, if the individual photo is not accompanied by the photo of someone very recognisable like Parnell then it's not going to be catalogued in any useful way. I wonder if the group photo is a collage rather than true group photo?

R0C

I don't want to write up individual names here but I'll private message you who I have tried already.

I agree with you on your line of thought, while Gordon does seem to have been very well known at the time of the State Trials and had daily Land League-related mentions in the media, very little of him seems to have been remembered through the 1900s into today compared to his friend and co-Land Leaguer, Michael Davitt.

I know that there was absolutely no mention of Gordon in my family growing up other than "Your great grandfather lived there, and he was a shoemaker". I never knew anything more about him until I googled his name while researching family history. Of course then when I started to look into it further, I came across items of historic significance which would have belonged to PJ and were carefully hidden away by my Grandmother.

I'm very curious about the group photo. I would imagine that had a better chance of surviving as it contained Davitt and Parnell.

I am still hopeful that a private collector of Land League memoriabelia might have one of these portraits somewhere out there. I'm sure there are some portraits lying in attics gathering dust.

I'm beginning to think as regards the negatives, it's a lost cause. "In 1916 the premises in Sackville Street was looted and burnt down during the Easter Rising. Most of the portrait negatives were destroyed."
I've been looking through the NLI catalogue using a wide range of keywords but I'm not coming across any portraits unfortunately.

Nhead

ROC I had a quick look on the NLI collection but couldn't find anything either however if you are near Dublin you should pop in a talk to them and I am sure they would help. Another option is to email Kew National Archives in London as they have material relating to the land league. I would also try searching archives of universities in America as you'd be surprised where some of this material crops up. One more option is to check the library collections of universities in Ireland and find theses on the land league and maybe send the writers an email asking did they come across anything you might get lucky.

R0C

Excellent advice here, Nhead, all of which I will definitely pursue.

I was at a bit of a loss as to what avenue to pursue next, but the thesis route is definitely a good idea and not one I had thought of. I have tried many libraries in Ireland with no luck, but never thought of the Kew Archives in London.

I'm not near Dublin but am considering taking the trip up soon, I've been putting it off as it involves taking a day off work, but if I know I'm likely to find something, I'll go for it. I have emailed them and am hoping for a response.

Nhead

I was also thinking of the Cork Multitext Project at UCC they might have something also (and just on checking universities-it is better to try some of those avenues when the college year start as staff are on holidays/sorting out admin during summer.) Another option is to send a letter into History Ireland magazine.

CeannRua

Hi ROC, thanks for the pm. Not sure if any of the following is going to help you but I'll try anyway! I think that a visit to the National Archives would be best place to try next. See http://oconnellhouse.nd.edu/assets/39749/macsuibhnemartinfdr.pdf

p111 and footnote 30 as example. Also the prison photos that another post mentioned.

A photo like this could end up anywhere as Nhead said - and items do end up in the most unexpected of repositories. One thing you often see in collections from this period and through to the 1920s are 'political scrapbooks.' It is highly unlikely that each item in a scrapbook will be itemised in a collection catalogue - meaning, unfortunately, that you just have to look through collection catalogues to identify relevant item descriptions, and then sit and look through the items.

The newspaper article about the Lawrence photos you posted names a number of other people. Have you tried looking at their papers? I only had a quick look but UCD Archives has a number of collections from this era - Tim Healy is named in your article and there are six boxes from his papers in UCD; also a small collection of papers belonging to Tom Kettle, son of Andrew Kettle named as also being photographed.

I had a read through messages you posted previously. You mentioned that he died in Claremorris Workhouse. There should be a register(s) listing admissions, deaths. You could try Mayo Co Library to see if they hold whatever survives. Another thing is that if he was admitted unconscious he may well have received last rites from the Workhouse chaplain. There may be chaplain's books. If they survive, they could be with the workhouse material, with whatever parish supplied the chaplain or if the diocese has a diocesan archive they could have ended up there.

Also, it would be well worth asking your diocesan archive if there is any relevant material in their collections, either the bishop's official papers; or any collections amassed by priests who took an interest in political matters.

Useful sites for the UK, apart from the National Archives catalogue are A2A and Archives Hub.

To be honest with you, I think you will give get very little practical help with research from repositories. Most will respond to queries on what they have and don't have in a general sense but (as I think you know at this stage!!!) you could literally spend hours and hours looking for an item like this. Unfortunately, the only way to visit. I don't know if they still provide this service but the National Archives used to have an archivist on duty every day to answer phone calls and with searchroom queries. It may give you advance warning of what you need to look at and how long it will take. The Jackie Clarke Collection in Mayo sounds very interesting as well. Another thing you could keep an eye on are auction catalogues eg Mealy's in Castlecomer.

Perplexed22

Interesting thread. Have you contacted the Michael Davitt Museum in Straide near Foxford in Co Mayo? There is a very interesting collection of documents and photographs from that time held there.

CeannRua

It might not help with this query but came across this today by coincidence. New York Public Library holds:

Collection consists of two volumes of photographs of prisoners confined in Mountjoy Prison, Dublin, in August 1857 and November 1866. Prisoners were identified as felons and Fenian political prisoners, including some of the leaders of the Fenian Brotherhood and its Irish wing, the Irish Revolutionary Brotherhood.
Images are online in their Digital Gallery:
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchresult.cfm?keyword=mountjoy

R0C

Apologies about my belated response, I didn't see the more recent replies here.


Firstly, I've been onto the National Archive again and have received a response:


With regard to your query below relating to your ancestor PJ Gordon, I am writing to inform you that I have checked our collection of Fenian Photographs but did not find a photo of your greatgrandfather, nor did I find a file on him in our General Prisons Board material, a collection which contains files on prisoners sentenced to penal servitude, files which often feature photographs of the prisoners in question. As we would not hold photographs/portraits of Land League members as you describe below, and as there is no photo in existence for him in either the Fenian Photograph collection or in the GPB Penal Files, it is therefore unlikely that a photograph of PJ Gordon is held in our collections.

However, while there is no penal file for PJ Gordon, there may be a convict reference file for him in which a petition for clemency may have been made on his behalf. We also hold a large collection of prison registers for jails in Ireland and you may be interested in consulting the registers for the following prisons for reference to PJ Gordon:

Kilmainham: 1798-1910

Portlaoise/Maryborough: 1821-1928

Galway: 1839-1936

Tullamore: 1860-1921

Castlebar: 1878-1919

Mountjoy: 1845-1936

There are also two detailed finding aids/lists to our Fenian collection and these can be consulted in our Reading Room for reference to PJ Gordon and his Fenian activities while it may be also be worthwhile checking with the National Library - www.nli.ie - to check whether a portrait of Land League members would be contained in the Lawrence Collection held by them.


So at least I guess I can rule something out.

Nhead, I'll definitely get onto some universities in the next few weeks, perhaps someone out there came across something while researching for a thesis. A letter to History Ireland magazine sounds like an excellent idea.


CeannRua, there are workhouse documents held at Mayo county library and I have received wonderful help from their researcher/historian previously, it was actually him who discovered where PJ died. I spent hours going through workhouse documents but couldn't find anything in relation to PJ but I might look into that again as my research certainly didn't cover every piece of info they have.

Thanks for all of your useful advice here, definitely many more leads I can follow-up on yet.

If anyone can let me know of private collectors/auctions for Land League type memorabilia, do let me know, as right now I only have google to supply me with people to contact.

Perplexed22, I have been onto the Michael Davitt Museum but they do not have and were unable to locate a photo.


CeannRua, very interesting find there which I am browsing through now. I have a family member in New York who would be able to follow up any leads with the NYPL.

Thanks to all for replying.

kroper

Hello,

In searching for my great great grandfather, P.J. Sheridan, I have come across a portrait that includes P.J. Gordon. it is entitled :
Portraits of the Fourteen Traversers in the State Prosecution of the Land League.

It is among the holdings of the National Library of Ireland. Here is the URL: http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000153893


Also, if you google "the fourteen traversers in the state prosecution of the Land League" you will find that there is an upcoming auction at Whyte's in Dublin on April 21, 2012, and it appears that they are auctioning this portrait, but I cannot find it in their catalogue. You will also find other references to this portrait as well as digital images, albeit very small.


I have a bar poster that has Parnell and a circle of associates that has PJ Sheridan but alas, PJ Gordon is not on it.



Hope this helps!

CeannRua

Good find, kroper. I don't think it is for upcoming auction by Whytes - it's just the way it's linked back to their homepage. It was for auction last year though and looks like it didn't sell. From catalogue of 16 April 2011
http://www.whytes.ie/i6.asp?Auction=20110416.
edit: sorry not linking properly to item

R0C

Thanks kroper for taking the time to respond here.
From my research of PJ Gordon, I am very familiar with the name PJ Sheridan.

I had previously been linked to that item containing the 14 traversers and was disappointed to see I'd missed the auction. I noticed it was unsold and contacted Whytes.

About two months ago, I was able to purchase this item via Whytes and now finally I have an image of PJ Gordon in my possession. (I am still seeking the original Lawrence print or any other images of Gordon out there)

PJ Sheridan is contained on this page also; if you wish, I can photograph it and e-mail you on a copy for your records. It'll be clearer than the preview online.

nuac

You coul enquire with


Wynnes Castlebar photographers for several generations

Sinéad McCool Curator Jackie Clarke Library/collection Ballina

Mayo Co Library Castlebar

Archives Connaught Tedlegraph Castlebar

Archives Mayo News Westport

R0C

Thanks for the suggestions, nuac.

Underneath the sketch of PJ used in the newspaper page which I have now (via Whytes), it says 'P.J. Gordon. From Photo by T.J. Wynne, Castlebar.'

So somewhere out there is a portrait photograph of PJ which this sketch is based on. [see attached for scan of sketch from newspaper page - my one and only glimpse at what PJ Gordon looked like]

As regards the Wynne Collection, I was informed that their photographic archive was donated to Mayo County Library at Castlebar so I assume they have no photos in their possession anymore. Ivor at the Library was so kind as to search through the entire archive for me last year in the hunt for the original picture of PJ but had no luck in finding it.
I haven't given up hope of something turning up eventually though.

I haven't looked into the other resources you suggested but certainly will. Thanks.

pakalasa

We have a membership card for The Land league at home. It was my great-granuncle's. Anyone know how rare these are?

R0C

There have been quite a few of these Land League membership cards listed in Whytes auctions over the years. If you check an old catalogue via their website you should be able to see how much they fetched.

I don't think it would be worth very much unless it belonged to a prominent land league member, but it should probably be priceless to your great-granuncle's descendants.

pakalasa

Oh, don't worry, It ain't for sale..;)
I was just wondering how many there were about, was it like 100's or 1000's.

R0C

Glad to hear it's not for sale.

I would guess at 100s rather than 1000s given how little my own research has turned up from the Land League era.

I know I haven't been able to come across a membership card for PJ Gordon yet but would very much like to. (Probably withering away in my grandmother's attic!)

The big auctions (Adam's, Whytes, etc) are flooded with 1916 and 1920s Irish memorabilia, there is even quite a bit of Fenian stuff listed usually, but there are never as many 1880s Land League era items.

pakalasa

I heard of a story recently of a young woman, who sold her Grandfather's War Of Independence medals so that she could go on a foreign holiday.

R0C

Wow.