Lack of Ambulances/Slow response times

Wolfe Tone

June 1st 2011
Adams questions Health Minister on death of Drogheda man
Sinn Féin President and TD for Louth and East Meath Gerry Adams has extended his condolences to the family of Peter Sherlock who died last Thursday morning after collapsing in Drogheda.
Mr. Sherlock was rushed in a van to Our Lady of Lourdes Drogheda A&E by good Samaritans who had waited 20 minutes for an ambulance.
Mr. Adams said:
“The failure of the emergency services to respond promptly to frantic calls for help following the collapse of Peter Sherlock last Thursday morning raises serious questions about the level and efficiency of the current emergency ambulance cover for Louth.
Peter Sherlock collapsed only a few minutes from the Accident and Emergency Unit at Our Lady of Lourdes in Drogheda. Despite this neither of the emergency ambulances on call that morning were available, and one had to be dispatched from Navan which is 30 kilometres away.
There is a serious flaw in the planning and provision of emergency cover for the Louth and Meath areas.
A claim by the HSE that the reconfiguration of Hospital Services for Louth has achieved an ‘enhanced ambulance service’ is in tatters following the death of Peter Sherlock.
Neither is it acceptable for the HSE to dismiss concerns by claiming that ambulance resources are deployed ‘on a clinical need basis to ensure that the appropriate patient gets the appropriate response.’
Very clearly in the case of Peter Sherlock this was not the case. The current system failed Peter Sherlock.
As a result of this I have submitted a series of questions to the Minister for Health seeking information about ambulance provision in Louth and Meath.

These include asking how many Ambulance teams there are covering the Louth and East Meath areas; where were the two emergency ambulances which were on call at the time of Mr. Sherlock’s collapse; is a 30 minute response time for an emergency call not unacceptable; does the Minister agree that the closure of A&E and acute medical services in Louth County Hospital has created more demand on the ambulance service; will the Minister order a review into ambulance provision in County Louth; in the meantime will the Minister assign additional ambulance resources to Our Lady of Lourdes, and will the Minister reopen the A&E in Louth County Hospital?

Read this today on Gerrys facebook. Today during leaders questions he raised the issue of overcrowding and under-funding of our hospitals and the struggles they face.

http://www.facebook.com/notes/sinn-fein-president-gerry-adams/health-service-in-louth-facing-worst-ever-crisis/181888271866085


I was talking to nurses in the Lourdes the other day and from DAY ONE A&E was overcrowded with trolleys. I was disgusted when I discovered that there is only ONE toilet to service all of A&E, staff included! Which means you have people stuck on trolleys for DAYS not even able to have a simple wash as that would take too much time and leave people queuing outside waiting to use the toilet. Can we not do anything right?

Lat week I had to call an ambulance in the early hours of the morning and thankfully it took just over 5 mins to arrive.

For other posters here who have had to call ambulances what where the response times like? Is there really a problem or was the delay which led to the poor mans death simply a (unacceptable) freak occurrence?

dfbemt

Were the Fire Brigade called to this incident?

In Dublin we would always send a fire engine to a call like this, with an ambulance. I know that the station in Drogheda is manned so the turn out time would take only 1 minute.

The Fire Brigade also have a defibrillator that could be used if need be. Depends on whether they were called or not?

calex71

Did this get any coverage nationally ???? Can't recall seeing anything about it on the news.

Truly shocking thing to happen. From what I remember reading in local press there was actually an ambulance parked up at the Lourdes but for whatever reason could not be dispatched

Wolfe Tone

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

For other posters here who have had to call ambulances what where the response times like? Is there really a problem or was the delay which led to the poor mans death simply a (unacceptable) freak occurrence?

I've rarely called an ambulance, but I do observe them about the place. I don't think that the current issue is a real issue at all, to be honest. The town seems pretty well covered with regards to emergency ambulance cover.

Additional teams would go to waste in my opinion, as they'd be sitting around the cottage doing very little.

That said, as I said before (probably not on here?), the simple, cheap and efficient fix (ie; the one that'll be ignored) is to simply allow Drogheda Fire and Rescue access to the St. John Emergency Ambulance.

1. It is parked on their premises when it's not being used
2. It's already equipped with blues and twos
3. Most (perhaps all?) of the fire officers would be competent, if not qualified, in pre-hospital care,
4. It'd cost only the insurance of getting the other guys onto it and petrol
5. It's an additional ambulance that's always available overnight, would be available a lot of the times during the week (for argument's sake, we'll say it's able to cover 50% of the week, which is 84 hours, of 168 hours).


Admittedly, it wouldn't be a full time ambulance, but as said above, I strongly believe there is no real need for another ambulance in the town anyway. For whatever it costs to get a few fire officers insured to drive it, and the cost of petrol bringing it to and from scenes, we have an additional ambulance that has already been paid for, with a qualified crew that we already have hired.


Makes sense to me.

lucernarian

Deleted User wrote: »

I've rarely called an ambulance, but I do observe them about the place. I don't think that the current issue is a real issue at all, to be honest. The town seems pretty well covered with regards to emergency ambulance cover.

I don't know how you can make that conclusion after reading the above story? There surely is an issue of some sort if transport for the dying man had to be arranged from Navan?

Now I could accept that there isn't funding etc for more ambulances and it would be very unfortunate but I wouldn't say that it's not a "real issue"? Sorry if I'm missing something here.

delly

From reading an article last week, Dundalk have 4 while Drogheda have 2 ambulances. The towns themselves have very similar populations, so does the surrounding area make such a difference that one is double the other?

lucernarian

If Dundalk has no 24 hour A&E anymore then I suppose it makes sense that they would have more ambulances to make up for the longer travel times to the hospital.

To_be_confirmed

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I don't know how you can make that conclusion after reading the above story? There surely is an issue of some sort if transport for the dying man had to be arranged from Navan?

Now I could accept that there isn't funding etc for more ambulances and it would be very unfortunate but I wouldn't say that it's not a "real issue"? Sorry if I'm missing something here.

I've concluded that because I've never heard of this problem before, and often see ambulances driving around the town without blues (admittedly, some of these occurences will of course be ambulances that belong to other areas and are probably just passing through, or visiting the Cottage briefly).


Whilst I'm sure that there are going to be times when there's not enough cover, I don't think it's frequent enough to warrant another ambulance or crew for the town.

To be honest, I thought my idea for the St. John Ambulance to be accessible to Drogheda Fire & Rescue was more than reasonable and fixed any issue.

delly

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

If Dundalk has no 24 hour A&E anymore then I suppose it makes sense that they would have more ambulances to make up for the longer travel times to the hospital.

Ah, that makes sense alright. An ambulance could be out of action for a good while if making a hospital run from Dundalk.

Deleted User wrote: »

To be honest, I thought my idea for the St. John Ambulance to be accessible to Drogheda Fire & Rescue was more than reasonable and fixed any issue.

That couldn't work in any form I would imagine. The St. John Ambulance is an entirely separate organisation and interchanging equipment just couldn't be done. In Dublin, as dfbemt mentioned, DFB look after the majority of ambulances as well as fire engines (as well as some HSE ambo's). So one day you could be in an engine, the next an ambulance so the logic to send out a fire engine to a medical emergency is obvious if there are no ambulances available. If there was some motion to send out Drogheda fire service to medical situations I would imagine it would be a very big deal as it would change entirely the role of the fire service.

Wolfe Tone

I've rarely called an ambulance, but I do observe them about the place. I don't think that the current issue is a real issue at all, to be honest. The town seems pretty well covered with regards to emergency ambulance cover.

Well it IS an issue. A man died because there was no ambulance available. If there was he would have received treatment quicker which could have saved his life. Thats a disgrace, and it must never happen again.

Rachiee

I think it is generally true of everywhere in Ireland apart from the major cities. The spread of resources in general in this country is very poor, unless you live in dublin you face poorer health services and travel services including addiction and homeless and community services.

It doesnt seem right to me the fact is you are more lokely to survive a major health illness or incident if you live in dublin. That is simply unfair and unacceptable, everyone has a right to a reasonable service it should never be based on your geographical location!

It all boils down to money in the end...money majes the world go round !

DundalkDuffman

Rachiee wrote: »

It doesnt seem right to me the fact is you are more lokely to survive a major health illness or incident if you live in dublin. That is simply unfair and unacceptable, everyone has a right to a reasonable service it should never be based on your geographical location!

It all boils down to money in the end...money majes the world go round !

True, how unfortunate would you need to be to have a need for an ambulance on the Cooley peninsula somewhere, Carlingford or Omeath? If the system can fail with an incident so close to A&E what chance would you have in Cooley?

ingen

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think that the current issue is a real issue at all,

it is a real issue, a person died because there was no ambulance available , and he was taken to hospital in the back of a van...


FG / Lab are great, :rolleyes: no more new gardai for two years, what will the next story be? no gardai available to respond to an urgent call, no doubt.?

its a disgrace, the town is not properly served. 100 days in and no real improvements.

ingen

ingen wrote: »

it is a real issue, a person died because there was no ambulance available , and he was taken to hospital in the back of a van..

Snow is an issue when it occurs, too, but it doesn't happen often enough for us to hire a special snow team.

An additional Ambulance crew, in my opinon, would be wasted in this town.

Before we pay for an additional ambulance and crew, I would like to hear statistics of how many emergency calls are made but not responded to and the average response time to emergency calls in the Drogheda area.

delly wrote: »

The St. John Ambulance is an entirely separate organisation and interchanging equipment just couldn't be done. In Dublin, as dfbemt mentioned, DFB look after the majority of ambulances as well as fire engines (as well as some HSE ambo's). So one day you could be in an engine, the next an ambulance so the logic to send out a fire engine to a medical emergency is obvious if there are no ambulances available. If there was some motion to send out Drogheda fire service to medical situations I would imagine it would be a very big deal as it would change entirely the role of the fire service.

I don't see how it could be at all different. Regardless of what organisation owns what, I would assume that pre-hospital equipment is made to a particular standard, and I imagine training in how to use these is also done to a national standard.

"Interchaning equipment" is a terribly weak excuse, and I doubt either of the services would have issue with using or sharing their gear.


In my theory, Drogheda Fire Service would only be dispatched to medical emergencies when they have access to the Ambulance and it's equipment. As the Fire Service currently don't tend to medical situations, it would be unreasonable to expect them do dispatch a fire tender to such, as it wouldn't be equipped with the necessary bits and pieces needed. The ambulance would.

It would be an additional duty for the Fire Service, yes, but it would be a rare occurrence for them to actually be called out, and as I said earlier, I am lead to believe that (at least some) officers in the station are already trained paramedics.

Changing the role of the service to have it adapt to current times isn't a bad thing.

I still don't see the downside.

delly

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't see how it could be at all different. Regardless of what organisation owns what, I would assume that pre-hospital equipment is made to a particular standard, and I imagine training in how to use these is also done to a national standard.

"Interchaning equipment" is a terribly weak excuse, and I doubt either of the services would have issue with using or sharing their gear.


In my theory, Drogheda Fire Service would only be dispatched to medical emergencies when they have access to the Ambulance and it's equipment. As the Fire Service currently don't tend to medical situations, it would be unreasonable to expect them do dispatch a fire tender to such, as it wouldn't be equipped with the necessary bits and pieces needed. The ambulance would.

It would be an additional duty for the Fire Service, yes, but it would be a rare occurrence for them to actually be called out, and as I said earlier, I am lead to believe that (at least some) officers in the station are already trained paramedics.

Changing the role of the service to have it adapt to current times isn't a bad thing.

I still don't see the downside.

It would be a legal minefield, think of a Garda heading into the Coastguard's office and saying 'Here, i need to borrow a jeep, sure it has blue lights on it so i'll be grand'. There are rules and regulations, legal waivers for emergency workers, change of job description, who certifys' the equipment, do both sides have to have to check it before use. I won't even mention what the Unions would think of it, nor people who donate to a charity to see there equipment being used by State organisations.

Your idea is great in theory, but thats all it is i'm afraid. It just couldn't happen.

calex71

delly wrote: »

It would be a legal minefield, think of a Garda heading into the Coastguard's office and saying 'Here, i need to borrow a jeep, sure it has blue lights on it so i'll be grand'. There are rules and regulations, legal waivers for emergency workers, change of job description, who certifys' the equipment, do both sides have to have to check it before use. I won't even mention what the Unions would think of it, nor people who donate to a charity to see there equipment being used by State organisations.

Your idea is great in theory, but thats all it is i'm afraid. It just couldn't happen.

Yeah the unions would have a right old hissy fit with that, wasn't there something in the recent past over money for doing some training to update the firemens skills????

delly

calex71 wrote: »

Yeah the unions would have a right old hissy fit with that, wasn't there something in the recent past over money for doing some training to update the firemens skills????

There was indeed link. Without knowing the facts of the situation, I wouldn't like to say who was in the right or wrong, but if there was a dispute over the use of a fire appliance, then I would see little hope of getting an ambulance on board.