Copenhagenisation

Mr November

http://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/business/2011/06/07/qmb.fc.copenhagenisation.cnn.html

tomasrojo

Good point about people cycling because it's convenient, rather than fitness or ideological reasons.

Funnily enough, there are a few facilities I've tried in a few countries (not Denmark) that are on the inside of lines of parked cars, and I've never felt that it's an especially safe system, since it puts you smack in the door zone of the side where people feel safest emerging from the car, and hence are least careful. I suppose it works when you've a huge number of cyclists, since people anticipate that they might door a cyclist.

A couple of cyclist bridges over the Liffey would be great, wouldn't they?

Beasty

tomasrojo wrote: »

A couple of cyclist bridges over the Liffey would be great, wouldn't they?

Would they?

Surely they would just become more crossing points for pedestrians, completely defeating the point

leftism

tomasrojo wrote: »

A couple of cyclist bridges over the Liffey would be great, wouldn't they?

That'd be nice alright! Then again a couple of ***insert item of transport ifrastructure here**** would also be great! Can't see that happening though. In fact i don't think we will be seeing any development of our transport infrastructure any time soon....

Maybe they'll rip up the Dublin tramlines again like they did back in the 20's and then sell the steel to repay some of the country's mounting debt interest.

The half-assed attempts at creating a network of cycling paths around the city has to be one of the biggest jokes the council ever undertook though. It is certainly up there with the spire, or that digital clock they buried in the Liffey at O'Connell bridge which was counting down to the millenium until it got clogged full of crap and stopped working...

Mr November

This is Ireland. Stuff like that simply wouldn't work as well as some other european countries where peoples attitutes are a lot different. While some of the measures introduced in the likes of Copenhagan are commendable, they'd be met with utter discontempt here... Mind you, I (and a lot of other people) did say that the Dublin bike scheme would 'never work' and have been proved wrong... but I think something like this would be 'a bridge too far'!!!

Bluefoam

Heres a great video about cycle infrastructure/culture:

http://www.vimeo.com/9950110

Its an oldie... not sure if its been posted here before, but good stuff all the same.

leftism

Some images of "Dublinisation"



The millenium clock that stopped working.



The spire that nobody wanted.



The tunnel that was too small.



The corporation offices that destroyed Old Viking Dublin.



The tram network that got completely ripped up, only to be rebuilt nearly 100 years later.

Cookie_Monster

leftism wrote: »

The tram network that got completely ripped up, only to be rebuilt nearly 100 years later.

it gets worse..
the tram network, that was a world leader, that got ripped up to be replaced by 2 separate lines.

@ DCC / Gov: leave it alone, roads work for cyclists in Dublin, half built malformed, badly prioritised cycle "lanes" do not. You're not going to do it properly so don't do it at all and save us all some time and money.

Mr November

leftism wrote: »

The tram network that got completely ripped up, only to be rebuilt nearly 100 years later.

... now consisting of just two tram lines - that don't connect to each other! :rolleyes:

leftism

Exactly! I stuck that picture of the tram going past Trinity College just to highlight how good the old system was. I'd say there are people working in LUAS that look at those pictures and just cry. A properly functioning tram network that connected the whole city! Not just two half-assed lines that are miles apart from each other with no way of connecting...

Heres a thought; why the hell didn't they run a set of tramlines across the new Beckett bridge. That could have connected the Red and Green lines via the Docklands, across the Liffey, up around Trinity and on to Stephen's green without having to shut down O'Connell bridge and Westmorland St. for 2 years. Such idiots!!!!

tomasrojo

Beasty wrote: »

Would they?

Surely they would just become more crossing points for pedestrians, completely defeating the point

Maybe. I suppose it would be hard to complain, given all the cyclists who use the Millennium Bridge.

tomasrojo

leftism wrote: »

The tram network that got completely ripped up, only to be rebuilt nearly 100 years later.

It was a pretty universal attitude that public transport had to pay its way (so no unprofitable bus-, train- or tram routes), and that soon almost everyone would be driving, which conveniently threw a lot of transport costs over the fence into the private sector.

When they widened the road into Dundrum in the sixties, they demolished Joe Daly's (for the first of two times) and paid him compensation. He was advised not to bother opening again, as soon no-one would be cycling.

Cue the 70s oil crisis ...

Cookie_Monster

leftism wrote: »

Heres a thought; why the hell didn't they run a set of tramlines across the new Beckett bridge.

they did, or at least the bridge is capable of handling trams, as far as I am aware the track bed is there but has just been plated and tarmacked over but can be pretty easily brought into use. It in a C&T thread somewhere

thebouldwhacker

Irish politicians work for re election not anything else, long term in their minds is anything within a 4 year period.

As for the luas not connecting up, I really think it is a wonder of modern Ireland, a physical manifestation of the state of the country tbh.

Undercover Elephant

leftism wrote: »

Some images of "Dublinisation"

I agree with your general point but you're being a bit harsh with some of these. The Spire is well liked by visitors, and it was embarrassing having 30 years of just a stump where some idiots decided to destroy the previous street furniture. The Port Tunnel is standard European size. The only trucks it can't take are the oversized ones used by Tesco and M&S to import stuff which could just as easily have been grown / made in Ireland. I don't see any good reason why we should have spent extra millions on the project just to accommodate a few British businesses. Maybe we should have built a deepwater freight port at Drogheda instead, but that's a different question.

The removal of the trams was probably the saddest, but it was not a uniquely Irish idiocy.

rp

Beasty wrote: »

Would they?

Surely they would just become more crossing points for pedestrians, completely defeating the point

The bridges would have to be designed for cyclist only ... ... I guess..?

fat bloke

Here's something I've always wondered. Germany, Denmark etc. Great cycle lanes, fabulous cycling roads and facilities.


So why do they all ride such sh1t bikes???

Bluefoam

fat bloke wrote: »

Here's something I've always wondered. Germany, Denmark etc. Great cycle lanes, fabulous cycling roads and facilities.


So why do they all ride such sh1t bikes???

Whats a **** bike? Is it a poor quality bike & aged and rusted bike or is it just a bike that doesn't suit Fred/Fashion standards?

rp

fat bloke wrote: »

So why do they all ride such sh1t bikes???

Perhaps we're compensating for something?

CramCycle

Beasty wrote: »

Would they?

Surely they would just become more crossing points for pedestrians, completely defeating the point

As opposed to the pedestrian bridges which are more crossing points for couriers and commuters :P

leftism wrote: »

Heres a thought; why the hell didn't they run a set of tramlines across the new Beckett bridge. That could have connected the Red and Green lines via the Docklands, across the Liffey, up around Trinity and on to Stephen's green without having to shut down O'Connell bridge and Westmorland St. for 2 years. Such idiots!!!!

Great idea (one that was hinted at years ago through the idea of running a line up Pearse street).

fat bloke wrote: »

Here's something I've always wondered. Germany, Denmark etc. Great cycle lanes, fabulous cycling roads and facilities.


So why do they all ride such sh1t bikes???

Because they all get stolen (in amsterdam anyway) thats why the locks are nearly always worth more than the bike.

Cookie_Monster

fat bloke wrote: »

So why do they all ride such sh1t bikes???

I asked that in Amsterdam and got a straight simple answer: so they don't get nicked. Good bikes get stolen so everyone just has a **** commuter for city travel. If someone steals you ****ty old bike for some reason you just steal the next one too...

tomasrojo

fat bloke wrote: »

Here's something I've always wondered. Germany, Denmark etc. Great cycle lanes, fabulous cycling roads and facilities.


So why do they all ride such sh1t bikes???

I don't think the facilities in Germany are regarded as fabulous. The rural ones are nice, from what I've heard, but the urban ones are pretty variable.

Spokes of Glory

I spent a good bit of time in Copenhagen for work reasons. Bear in mind that while they do have super infrastructure for cyclists and the country is in general bike-friendly, the taxes to pay for it are stiff. Apart from income tax, the equivalent of our VRT is something like 180%, and parking tolls in Copehagen are eye-watering. Not sure people would sign up for that no matter how many dedicated cycle lanes we had around the country.

Spokes

Bluefoam

Spokes of Glory wrote: »

I spent a good bit of time in Copenhagen for work reasons. Bear in mind that while they do have super infrastructure for cyclists and the country is in general bike-friendly, the taxes to pay for it are stiff. Apart from income tax, the equivalent of our VRT is something like 180%, and parking tolls in Copehagen are eye-watering. Not sure people would sign up for that no matter how many dedicated cycle lanes we had around the country.

Spokes

Are you telling me that all that tax intake is going purely on cycling infrastructure? wow! Cycling really must be expensive...

Raam

tomasrojo wrote: »

I don't think the facilities in Germany are regarded as fabulous. The rural ones are nice, from what I've heard, but the urban ones are pretty variable.

I cycle in Munich city and it's surroundings a few times every year. I hate their cycle lanes.

Spokes of Glory

Bluefoam wrote: »

Are you telling me that all that tax intake is going purely on cycling infrastructure? wow! Cycling really must be expensive...

Nope, of course not. Just making the point that these things are more easily done by any govt if they have lots of money coming in. As to how that money is spent and whether the Irish govt in particular could be relied upon to spend it wisely....a thread for another day.

Spokes

califano

That Richard Quest is some headerball.

leftism

rounders123 wrote: »

That Richard Quest is some headerball.

Finally, something we can all agree upon! He's alway struck me as a complete looper! An entertaining looper though...

Macy0161

Undercover Elephant wrote: »

I agree with your general point but you're being a bit harsh with some of these. The Spire is well liked by visitors, and it was embarrassing having 30 years of just a stump where some idiots decided to destroy the previous street furniture. The Port Tunnel is standard European size. The only trucks it can't take are the oversized ones used by Tesco and M&S to import stuff which could just as easily have been grown / made in Ireland. I don't see any good reason why we should have spent extra millions on the project just to accommodate a few British businesses. Maybe we should have built a deepwater freight port at Drogheda instead, but that's a different question.

The removal of the trams was probably the saddest, but it was not a uniquely Irish idiocy.

Disagree on the spire (nothing wrong with the floozie) and the tunnel actually (should've been future proof). But certainly Dublin wasn't alone in ripping up tram tracks only to have to refit them later. Far more stupid was allowing building on parts of old rail lines, as happened on the old Harcourt Street line.

btw, wouldn't a lot of european cities have the "advantage" of being leveled in the 1940's?

Harrybelafonte

What? Bikes are stolen in Amsterdam? I can't believe that, I need proof. That kind of thing only happens here, in crappy aul Oyrland. I also want to see proof of bad planning in other cities, there's no way it happens, other places ALWAYS get it right, ALWAYS I tell you. The fact that: many were levelled in WWII and were able to replan; that most were colonial, rather post-colonial countries who go through clear stages of redevelopment i.e. wars for independence, civil war, stagnation, growth, collapse, replanning has no bearing on it at all. The simple fact is Irish people (except us) are all stupid, have a really bad attitude to everything, they're greedy, petit-bourgeoise, nouveau riche scum and they don't speak English proper. It was all better when we were governed by the British tbh.

Sarcasm over, maybe it's time we took a more positive attitude to these things and tried to come up with some ideas on a lower level to encourage the scenario you guys desire.

"Man will become better when you show him what he is like." - Chekov (That's Anton, not Pavel)

smacl

Macy0161 wrote: »

...the tunnel actually (should've been future proof)...

Maybe it is. State the haulage industry is in at present, and the way fuel prices are going, it could be no more than a large pigeon sanctuary in a few years.

Macy0161

smacl wrote: »

Maybe it is. State the haulage industry is in at present, and the way fuel prices are going, it could be no more than a large pigeon sanctuary in a few years.

Or it'll be more efficient to make fewer, but larger loads. Either way, it can't be a positive that when it opened there was already trucks on the road that couldn't use it.

manwithaplan

Macy0161 wrote: »

Or it'll be more efficient to make fewer, but larger loads. Either way, it can't be a positive that when it opened there was already trucks on the road that couldn't use it.

I dunno. Seems to me that when you depart from a standard, you have to accept some of the consequences. All those standard size containers fit nicely together on the boat, those tunnel boring machines fit the european standard size tunnel which fits the standard size lorry etc. Should we really have paid (even more!) over the odds to fit the non-standard vehicles?

The media would have had a go either way - €40 million of your cash to fit a handful of trucks - someone call the Public Accounts Committee.

tomasrojo

Don't supertrucks have a rather dangerous slipstream effect?

CramCycle

tomasrojo wrote: »

Don't supertrucks have a rather dangerous slipstream effect?

If by dangerous you mean super awesome :eek: and manly :cool: while you are on a bike then possibly :pac:

galwaycyclist

Macy0161 wrote: »

btw, wouldn't a lot of european cities have the "advantage" of being leveled in the 1940's?

Yes I believe the cycling mecca of Munster in Nordrhein Westfalen, being the HQ of Oberkommando West, was extensively remodelled by the RAF* during the early 1940s under the "Harris" school of town planning.

* Thats the Royal Air Force RAF not the other one

galwaycyclist

tomasrojo wrote: »

I don't think the facilities in Germany are regarded as fabulous. The rural ones are nice, from what I've heard, but the urban ones are pretty variable.

And by one of those curious quirks of fate this very recently landed in my inbox

Lack of Infrastructure Threatens German Cyclists
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,767522,00.html

"Some experts suspect that removing the signs could bring significant safety improvements. A federal agency found that when cyclists ride into intersections on bike paths, the accident rate is "about twice as high" as when cyclists use bike lanes on the street. Because of poor visibility issues, turning motorists are often unable to see cyclists."

petethedrummer

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Sarcasm over, maybe it's time we took a more positive attitude to these things and tried to come up with some ideas on a lower level to encourage the scenario you guys desire.

Ok positive suggestions ......

How about in future we show any proposed cycle lane designs to a 9 year old, so the Beckett bridge fiasco doesn't happen again.

Or get someone from the cycle lane design department to ride a bike once in a while.

Or get said person take a trip to Copenhagen or take a look at it on google street view.

CramCycle

Why don't we not bother our h*le with cycle lanes and concentrate on improving common sense and the quality of roads already present?

petethedrummer

CramCycle for president.

CramCycle

petethedrummer wrote: »

CramCycle for president.

It began here, remember this day.

Bluefoam

petethedrummer wrote: »

Or get someone from the cycle lane design department to ride a bike once in a while.

Or get said person take a trip to Copenhagen or take a look at it on google street view.

You didn't pay attention to my post above obviously

leftism

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Yes I believe the cycling mecca of Munster in Nordrhein Westfalen, being the HQ of Oberkommando West, was extensively remodelled by the RAF* during the early 1940s under the "Harris" school of town planning.

* Thats the Royal Air Force RAF not the other one

Ah good old Arthur Harris! The "Willy O'Dea" of the RAF! Anyone objecting to his methods was either showered in a tirade of verbal abuse or incinerated in a hellish firestorm (depending on what language the objections were voiced in).

tomasrojo

galwaycyclist wrote: »

And by one of those curious quirks of fate this very recently landed in my inbox

Lack of Infrastructure Threatens German Cyclists
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,767522,00.html

"Some experts suspect that removing the signs could bring significant safety improvements. A federal agency found that when cyclists ride into intersections on bike paths, the accident rate is "about twice as high" as when cyclists use bike lanes on the street. Because of poor visibility issues, turning motorists are often unable to see cyclists."

Cologne concludes that about 60 percent of its bike paths are unsafe for cyclists. In some cases, tree roots have been growing into paths for years.

I'm quite impressed that they're prepared to acknowledge the scale of their failure.