Marathon Training Advice required

bobbysands81

Hi all,

Completed the 2007 Dublin marathon but thinking of doing it again this year.

Followed the Hal Higdon plan the last time and struggled my way through it so I intend to follow the same plan again should I run it.

Hal has scheduled short midweek runs on Tuesdays and Thursday between 3-5 miles. I would hope to play an hour 5-a-side on these days rather than the small runs - I would follow his plan for all the other days fully though.

http://www.halhigdon.com/marathon/MaraNovice1.html

2 quick questions:

1. Can someone recommend a good "hands on" physio/sports therapist based in the City Centre (close to the IFSC)?

2. Would the hour playing 5-a-side be an adequate substitute for the short mid week runs?

Many thanks.

ger664

No idea on question 1 as I live in the sticks but as for question 2 No.

These runs are designed as Recovery runs which allow your body/muscles to recover from the excursions of the long run and the mid-week medium long run in the schedule

These runs are done at a very easy pace to enable the blood to flow to your muscles to aid recovery without placing any stress on the body.

A hour of competitive testosterone based Indoor soccer is not what the doctor ordered.

RacoonQueen

http://functionaltraining.ie/

Only about 1km away from IFSC

zico10

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Hi all,

2. Would the hour playing 5-a-side be an adequate substitute for the short mid week runs?

ger664 wrote: »

These runs are designed as Recovery runs which allow your body/muscles to recover from the excursions of the long run and the mid-week medium long run in the schedule

These runs are done at a very easy pace to enable the blood to flow to your muscles to aid recovery without placing any stress on the body.

A hour of competitive testosterone based Indoor soccer is not what the doctor ordered.

They're not a substitue for recovery runs. And they're probably not what the doctor ordered either, but I still wouldn't give up the 5-a-side. I'm assuming you enjoy it and you probably play with friends. There's a social side to team sports, that in my own opinion running can't substitute for.
Sure you could injure yourself, but how important is running to you?
If it was an elite runner, I'd understand, but why ordinary Joe Soaps would completely give up the things they enjoy for running, I don't understand.

ger664

Zico

Most people ignore the recovery runs and continue with the hard running workouts and there GAA/Soccer training as well. This is why a lot of ordinary joes do not get to the start of the race or struggle through the race because their bodies are just worn down by all the stress it was placed under over the summer months.

Cross training is allowed but nothing to taxing and once a week at most. For first time marathoner I would recommend no cross training and 2-3 days rest a week.

IMO if you are going to do a marathon respect the distance and commit 100% to running for the duration of the plan. This means no GAA/Soccer/Rugby or whatever.

Yes there is a social aspect to running. For those fortunate enough to live in Dublin check out the Dublin Marathon Novice thread for organised long runs in the park over the coming months. You can also join a fit4life or meet and train or AAI club.

zico10

ger664 wrote: »

Most people ignore the recovery runs and continue with the hard running workouts and there GAA/Soccer training as well. This is why a lot of ordinary joes do not get to the start of the race or struggle through the race because their bodies are just worn down by all the stress it was placed under over the summer months.

I think most people who take GAA or soccer seriously and regularly train for them, would have little interest in running a marathon. The OP mentioned playing 5-a-side soccer once a week and nothing about training for this, which if he did I imagine he would have said something.
I can't say I know of anybody who trained for and failed to start a marathon, because of involvement in other sports, so I can't comment on this. I'm guessing OP is already playing 5-a-side and it's not something he's going to take up as a part of a marathon programme. My original post advising him not to give it up, is on the reasonable assumption that it is something he enjoys. I've trained for three marathons and I still played 5-a-side soccer with my friends on a weekly basis. The only week I skipped, was the week before each race. I managed to make the start line for each one. Maybe I'd have gained an extra minute or two without the soccer, but it wouldn't have been worth it to me, to cease doing an activity I've enjoyed doing with my friends for years.

ger664 wrote: »

Cross training is allowed but nothing to taxing and once a week at most. For first time marathoner I would recommend no cross training and 2-3 days rest a week.

4 training days a week? For a marathon? I understand people have jobs, families, and other such commitments, but that's not what I'd recommend.

ger664 wrote: »

IMO if you are going to do a marathon respect the distance and commit 100% to running for the duration of the plan. This means no GAA/Soccer/Rugby or whatever.

Believe me I do respect the distance, but f*ck it, nobody here is going to the Olympics. If you enjoy a 5-a-side kick about with friends, there's no need to give it up.

ger664 wrote: »

Yes there is a social aspect to running. For those fortunate enough to live in Dublin check out the Dublin Marathon Novice thread for organised long runs in the park over the coming months. You can also join a fit4life or meet and train or AAI club.

At the end of the day running is still an individual sport. While I accept there is a social side to many running clubs, I don't see how it can compare to the camaraderie built up in a team sport, where there is a collective effort to achieve a common goal. Then not being born with any talent, I've never belonged to any team in my adult years, so maybe you could end up in a situation where your team mates are a bunch of w*nk*rs. In that case maybe you'd have more fun in a running club.
I guess the best people to ask, would be people who've experienced the two sides of the fence.

RayCun

OP should post how much he is running now, and what he is aiming for in the marathon, because both will make a difference.
Playing 5-a-side is not recovery, and it is an injury risk. If OP is happy to live with that, fine.

Krusty_Clown

I think it's a case of 'suck it and see'. I used to play 5-a-side once a week when I started training for the marathon, but it was taking me two days to recover from an average footie match so was having an impact on my ability to follow the marathon training program. A bit of a case of lacking in football-specific fitness. But the end result was that it impacted my training program, and I had to give it up.

There's no doubt you will be better prepared for the marathon if you focus on running activities. Certainly the football will not a huge amount towards your marathon goal. It's a trade-off: how much you value your football, versus how well you hope to perform in your marathon goal.

ger664

Just to clarify my replies are based on OP asking could he play indoor soccer twice a week on tuesday and thursdays instead of scheduled recovery runs.

zico10

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I used to play 5-a-side once a week when I started training for the marathon, but it was taking me two days to recover from an average footie match so was having an impact on my ability to follow the marathon training program. A bit of a case of lacking in football-specific fitness. But the end result was that it impacted my training program, and I had to give it up.

You should have just gotten your team to play the offside trap, which you could have marshalled from central defence. Minimal running involved, simply step forward a yard or two every time the ball comes near your goal, and wave you arm about in the air.

Rantan

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Hi all,

Completed the 2007 Dublin marathon but thinking of doing it again this year.

Followed the Hal Higdon plan the last time and struggled my way through it so I intend to follow the same plan again should I run it.

Hal has scheduled short midweek runs on Tuesdays and Thursday between 3-5 miles. I would hope to play an hour 5-a-side on these days rather than the small runs - I would follow his plan for all the other days fully though.

http://www.halhigdon.com/marathon/MaraNovice1.html

2 quick questions:

1. Can someone recommend a good "hands on" physio/sports therapist based in the City Centre (close to the IFSC)?

2. Would the hour playing 5-a-side be an adequate substitute for the short mid week runs?

Many thanks.

...similar story to my own situation. I did DCM 09 and had a slow time but finished comfortably, did kildare recently and took 40 mins off my DCM time. Anyway, I did an hour of indoor a week in the lead up to Kildare and told myself it was in lieu of speedwork(I just hate tempo runs). I spinted like an idiot for the hour, it defo helped with my training until I sprained my ankle at soccer 5 weeks before the race. took two weeks to recover, and 150euros of physio that I coudnlt afford. There is a high risk involved in contact sports, I would tend to say if you have to play soccer do so in the early stages but give it up a month or two before the race. I'm hoping to do DCM again this year and will seriously consider giving up the soccer for the few months between now and then, it was too much stress at the time of my sprained ankle, worrying if I would be fit or not, especially after the hard training I had put in.

ecoli

I can see where both zico10 and ger664 are coming from and in their own way they both have very good points

5 a side football consists of short high intensity burst which would have a similar effect as than of interval work. This will not benefit the development of the aerobic endurance needed to run the marathon as it is primarily anaerobically based (marathon is predominantly an aerobic based event with approx 99% of energy coming from the aerobic energy system). It is also high injury risk as the start stop, twist turn nature can be severe on the body.

Having said this like zico says we are all hobby runners and none of us make our living from the sport so we must balance it with the rest of our life.

My own opinion would be try to slowly introduce running around your football. Build into the programme if you have time by adding running on a monday and then after two or three weeks add Wed. Keep these runs short as you are just getting your body used to being active four days in a row. Once you have phased these in over a few weeks then build into the plan.

The other option would be maybe every second week cut the football back to once a week. This should allow your body to "recover" every second week. Though these easy runs do allow for the body to recover they are not by right recovery runs. These are at a pace which allows your body to develop aerobically as optimium as possible without compromising your body through fatigue.

The injury risk does not come from the football alone but the introduction of a new element too quick too soon. Like ramping up the mileage the body needs to slowly introduce the new stress factor and adapt to a point that he body wont break down and this is the element in which injury risk is very high.

The football will boost general aerobic fitness slightly but you need specific fitness to get through the marathon. Balance the stresses of both worlds and you should be grand

Best of luck

Krusty_Clown

zico10 wrote: »

You should have just gotten your team to play the offside trap, which you could have marshalled from central defence. Minimal running involved, simply step forward a yard or two every time the ball comes near your goal, and wave you arm about in the air.

Aside from not being match fit, I was also crap.

bobbysands81

Thanks folks... some excellent points for me to think about.

Currently I'm not doing too much running (bar playing 5-a-side) but I am going to do a 5k tomorrow. I have done approx 20 5ks this year and about 3 10ks.

My goal will be to finish the marathon, nothing else, I don't have any time goal as such in mind.

I will deffo keep going with the soccer in the short term, at least until I do the National Lottery Race Series, then I might cut back a bit on it as I think the biggest threat to me doing the marathon is actual ongoing pains I get in my right hip. The level of ball I'm playing ain't hectic so it's not overly taxing. Giving up one of the nights, or even alternating them, might also be an option.

Anyway, many thanks folks and if anyone else wants to add a bit of advice please feel free.

colblimp

I'm afraid I'm with Ger664 on this one. If you want to get to the mara start line, and finish, the footy has to go. You can't incorporate 5-a-side and mara training, it just doesn't work - the chance of injury is very high, and you've already indicated you're having trouble with your right hip.

I'd give up the footy, use the money you save on that to get yourself to a fizz and get to the mara start line in good shape to finish well.

tonto2010

I ran Dublin last year for the first time and played astro once or twice a week right up until a week before the race. While I'm no expert and it was probably a bad idea I enjoy a kick around with the lads too much to give it up!

In actual fact looking forward to it made some of the LSR's bearable! in saying that it would have been awful to go over on my ankle or something in the weeks before the race.

Its a tough call.