GUI involvment in interclub disputes

zolons

Does anyone know of any case in previous years where the GUI or relevant provincial branch has altered, reversed or gotten involved in the result of an interclub match due to any of the follwong reasons?

- a serious breach of etiquette being reported following the match e.g abusive or threatening behaviour by a person ivolved in the match
- any breach of rules or situation where a ruling was required not being dealt with correctly having significant influence on the match
- any sort of obvious injustice or issue with the result of a match

I'm aware of a number of disqualifications regarding things such as handicap issues and ineligable players however id be interested to hear if anyone had any other stories.:D

Sligored

zolons wrote: »

Does anyone know of any case in previous years where the GUI or relevant provincial branch has altered, reversed or gotten involved in the result of an interclub match due to any of the follwong reasons?

- a serious breach of etiquette being reported following the match e.g abusive or threatening behaviour by a person ivolved in the match
They wont get involved i would say
- any breach of rules or situation where a ruling was required not being dealt with correctly having significant influence on the match
If the dispute is not resolved before commencement of the next hole , it cannot be resolved after.
You would need to give more info to get a judgement on this
- any sort of obvious injustice or issue with the result of a match
tuam played two years ago with 2 holes with temporary greens (shortened by 40 yards each and therefore an unmeasured course and were thrown out of connacht jack o sullivan interclub

I'm aware of a number of disqualifications regarding things such as handicap issues and ineligable players however id be interested to hear if anyone had any other stories.:D

please give more detail

zolons

2up playing 17th in deciding match. Individual touched his ball with clubhead as he addressed the ball but it did not move. He consulted his foursomes partner who explained to him that it was not a penalty as it didnt move and he proceded to take the shot after the oppositions pair had no issue with the judgement. As they made their way up the fairway the player was approached by an member of the opposition who had completed his match and accused of being a "f***ing cheat" out loud in front of the crowd and more people rallied behind the accuser.

The accuser claimed the ball had moved which he said was a stroke and so the player had played out of turn and therefore the hole was over. Aside from the fact that it is a fundamental rule of interclub comps that only a captain or playing partner can give advice which holds a penalty of loss of hole itself it has to be down to the player to judge whether or not the ball had moved. Regardless of whether the ball moved the order of play does not change for a penalty and also it does not lead to loss of hole you go back and have the correct player replay the shot.

As it was an away match for those involved it was not an easy position to be in and they were intimidated into conceding the hole even though they correctly believed they had done nothing wrong. They went on to lose the match as you may expect after the ordeal. Rulings found to be incorrect later on and disputes regarding rules are done and dusted once the match continues with the next hole however the manner with which these rulings were imposed, the behaviour of individuals involved and the win at all costs attitude of people is unacceptable. The organising committee of any tournament has the right to disqualify an individual for a serious breach of etiquette but i'm sure they will not so to not set a precedent for future disputes. I believe they should make an example of those involved.

steph1

Individuals who are out on golf courses watching inter club matches should not have anything to do with rules or what happens in a match. They should stay out of it. Its up to the players who are playing to try and agree or check the rule book and sort it out and if they are not sure or cannot agree they should call the two captains of the teams or else contact one of the union officials to see if it can be decided upon.

k.p.h

Thats a tricky one TBH. Would not see the GUI getting involved though.

Sligored

They should not have completed the hole until a resolution was found to the ruling - the only people involved in this resolution should be players and team captains if required and if the player said his ball did not move it is final.
If a decision cannot be reached mark the balls and contact the gui the following morning and when they have made a ruling , then the match can be completed.
Once the other team took the honour on the next tee the dispute is deemed resolved. Its easy to say but the player should have stood up for himself no matter what the accuser said . If he did not move the ball , dont accept a penalty.
I would write a strongly worded letter of protest to the secretary of the other club , saying that the actions of this individual were inappropriate and that you would have expected better behaviour from a member of his club and i would cc it to the provincial council . They may concede the match to you if they are ashamed of his actions but i would be very surprised if the gui got involved in these circumstances.

Halfprice

as you say above the opposition team had no problem and believed that the ball did not move either so i would of stood up for myself. the people that mattered at the time were the 4 lads playing who all agreed the ball did not move. As they say there is always 1. I'd say the lads in question never felt as low in all there life been showed up like that. That clown needed a thump.

mr.mickels

Halfprice wrote: »

as you say above the opposition team had no problem and believed that the ball did not move either so i would of stood up for myself. the people that mattered at the time were the 4 lads playing who all agreed the ball did not move. As they say there is always 1. I'd say the lads in question never felt as low in all there life been showed up like that. That clown needed a thump.

The guys who accepted the hole victory were as bad as the loudmouth if they had previously agreed the ball didn't move. A bunch of langers in that club obviously, why not name and shame the club in question. When I used play before we had one guy in the club like that but not as bad, our own selectors would never select him for any team panel despite him being more than good enough as a player, it was known he would likely embarrass the club in any match.

GreeBo

zolons wrote: »

2up playing 17th in deciding match. Individual touched his ball with clubhead as he addressed the ball but it did not move. He consulted his foursomes partner who explained to him that it was not a penalty as it didnt move and he proceded to take the shot after the oppositions pair had no issue with the judgement. As they made their way up the fairway the player was approached by an member of the opposition who had completed his match and accused of being a "f***ing cheat" out loud in front of the crowd and more people rallied behind the accuser.

The accuser claimed the ball had moved which he said was a stroke and so the player had played out of turn and therefore the hole was over. Aside from the fact that it is a fundamental rule of interclub comps that only a captain or playing partner can give advice which holds a penalty of loss of hole itself it has to be down to the player to judge whether or not the ball had moved. Regardless of whether the ball moved the order of play does not change for a penalty and also it does not lead to loss of hole you go back and have the correct player replay the shot.

As it was an away match for those involved it was not an easy position to be in and they were intimidated into conceding the hole even though they correctly believed they had done nothing wrong. They went on to lose the match as you may expect after the ordeal. Rulings found to be incorrect later on and disputes regarding rules are done and dusted once the match continues with the next hole however the manner with which these rulings were imposed, the behaviour of individuals involved and the win at all costs attitude of people is unacceptable. The organising committee of any tournament has the right to disqualify an individual for a serious breach of etiquette but i'm sure they will not so to not set a precedent for future disputes. I believe they should make an example of those involved.

Huh?

AGC

GreeBo wrote: »

Huh?

Presume he means if that player had moved the ball his playing partner should have taken the next shot and when he didn't it meant the same player played 2 shots in a row.

Anyway crazy carry on from whatever club it was. A letter of complaint, but it would probably fall on deaf ears if that is how they let their members act on the course.

Some would have just boxed him id say.

PhilipMarlowe

If he had moved his ball (not while making a stroke), it would have been a penalty. But, penalties do no affect the order of play - it would still have been his shot, not his partner's.
So the accuser who claimed that he played out of turn was also wrong on top of being a c***.

While interclub days are great, they can also help to highlight the morons.

By the way, information on the rules is not considered "advice".

G1032

zolons wrote: »

2up playing 17th in deciding match. Individual touched his ball with clubhead as he addressed the ball but it did not move. He consulted his foursomes partner who explained to him that it was not a penalty as it didnt move and he proceded to take the shot after the oppositions pair had no issue with the judgement. As they made their way up the fairway the player was approached by an member of the opposition who had completed his match and accused of being a "f***ing cheat" out loud in front of the crowd and more people rallied behind the accuser.

The accuser claimed the ball had moved which he said was a stroke and so the player had played out of turn and therefore the hole was over. Aside from the fact that it is a fundamental rule of interclub comps that only a captain or playing partner can give advice which holds a penalty of loss of hole itself it has to be down to the player to judge whether or not the ball had moved. Regardless of whether the ball moved the order of play does not change for a penalty and also it does not lead to loss of hole you go back and have the correct player replay the shot.

As it was an away match for those involved it was not an easy position to be in and they were intimidated into conceding the hole even though they correctly believed they had done nothing wrong. They went on to lose the match as you may expect after the ordeal. Rulings found to be incorrect later on and disputes regarding rules are done and dusted once the match continues with the next hole however the manner with which these rulings were imposed, the behaviour of individuals involved and the win at all costs attitude of people is unacceptable. The organising committee of any tournament has the right to disqualify an individual for a serious breach of etiquette but i'm sure they will not so to not set a precedent for future disputes. I believe they should make an example of those involved.

Heard about this yesterday. I'm not a member of either club involved but got the full story from a friend who was playing in the match.
The guys from the team that eventually lost the match should have stood firm IMO and told the accuser to F off for himself.
Ye should have asked for a referee there and then. What happened that evening was an absolute disgrace.
I believe ye lost on the 19th? Sympathy is with ye, but not sure if anything will be done about it.

G1032

mr.mickels wrote: »

The guys who accepted the hole victory were as bad as the loudmouth if they had previously agreed the ball didn't move. A bunch of langers in that club obviously, why not name and shame the club in question. When I used play before we had one guy in the club like that but not as bad, our own selectors would never select him for any team panel despite him being more than good enough as a player, it was known he would likely embarrass the club in any match.

The club itself is a grand club. This was just one individual who started the accusations. The team Captains should have handled things better and the players that were accused should have called for a referee.
I've played againt the club where the accuser was from, both home and away, many times, and always had a friendly match without dispute.

ozymandias10

just to add fuel to the fire. what the accuser said if that was deemed advice then the opposition could have claimed the hole. They should have used that line as their defence and the captains would have dispersed the crowd

GreeBo

ozymandias10 wrote: »

just to add fuel to the fire. what the accuser said if that was deemed advice then the opposition could have claimed the hole. They should have used that line as their defence and the captains would have dispersed the crowd

See Lickey's post, "advice" as to the rules is not considered advice.

ozymandias10

it is deemed advice if it is from an external person to the match. Not team manager/captain, one of the players or nominated caddies. This is to stop people interfereing just as what happened above. The players from what I can gather agreed that the ball had not moved. the accuser advised his club mates different and was incorrect on his citement of the rule. This would be deemed advice. Have seen it happen in Bruen in Munster.

GreeBo

ozymandias10 wrote: »

it is deemed advice if it is from an external person to the match. Not team manager/captain, one of the players or nominated caddies. This is to stop people interfereing just as what happened above. The players from what I can gather agreed that the ball had not moved. the accuser advised his club mates different and was incorrect on his citement of the rule. This would be deemed advice. Have seen it happen in Bruen in Munster.

Is the a rule being broken (or not) not considered a fact and thus cannot be advice? e.g in the same way you can ask someone how far away a bunker etc is?

ozymandias10

Greebo..On a number of occasions prior to commencing a match the GUI official has called both teams together and informed them that supporters must watch from the wings (not walk down middle of fairways with players) and not approach players as it will be deemed giving advice and will result in los of hole. Now in fairness the talk was always given prior to playing one particular club who are known for having supporters who inform players of breaks on greens and club them on par threes . Friom what you are sying it is objective and depends on the GUI official

SARZY

k.p.h wrote: »

Thats a tricky one TBH. Would not see the GUI getting involved though.

The GUI wont get involved with individuals who cheat on their handicaps day in and day out.
The GUI are not capable of running the game.
The GUI are only really interested in gathering money and are so far removed from the grass roots of the game that it is laughable.
Meanwhile the game is being destroyed on their watch BUT they fob off the problem on honest to goodness club members who volunteer to participate on Handicap committees and try hard but cannot deal with the problem.
Forget about the GUI.

Jul3s

SARZY wrote: »

The GUI wont get involved with individuals who cheat on their handicaps day in and day out.
The GUI are not capable of running the game.
The GUI are only really interested in gathering money and are so far removed from the grass roots of the game that it is laughable.
Meanwhile the game is being destroyed on their watch BUT they fob off the problem on honest to goodness club members who volunteer to participate on Handicap committees and try hard but cannot deal with the problem.
Forget about the GUI.

This is complete and utter drivel, what do you expect the GUI to in this case?.

Sligored

Jul3s wrote: »

This is complete and utter drivel, what do you expect the GUI to in this case?.

Agreed - if there is anyone to blame for the irregularities in the handicap system , it is the golfers who manage their handicaps in this country and not the union who must follow the rules set down by congu.
For a country of our size we should be very proud of the gui and the work they do in bringing the likes of harrington, g mac , rory and shane lowry .There are a number of other players on the gui conveyor belt namely cutler , dunbar , mcelroy to name but a few.

zolons

Licksy wrote: »

By the way, information on the rules is not considered "advice".

Where is this info coming from? Does this mean that a spectator can step in and point out a breach of the rules or false interpretation? You may be right but i would certainly consider this giving advice as knowing the rules is as much a part of the game as any other aspect.

SARZY wrote: »

The GUI wont get involved with individuals who cheat on their handicaps day in and day out.
The GUI are not capable of running the game.
The GUI are only really interested in gathering money and are so far removed from the grass roots of the game that it is laughable.
Meanwhile the game is being destroyed on their watch BUT they fob off the problem on honest to goodness club members who volunteer to participate on Handicap committees and try hard but cannot deal with the problem.
Forget about the GUI.

Think this is a bit off topic, it has nothing to do with bandits or handicaps and I wasnt really having a go at the GUI or provincial branches. All things considered i think the GUI do a fairly good job and dont believe they are at all responsible monitoring handicaps.

SARZY

zolons wrote: »

All things considered i think the GUI do a fairly good job and dont believe they are at all responsible monitoring handicaps.

So what is their role then ?

Abandon the game to cheats and get elected to eat steak and drink wine.

The game is being destroyed and they are the ruling body.

SARZY

Jul3s wrote: »

This is complete and utter drivel, what do you expect the GUI to in this case?.

As above.

mr.mickels

ozymandias10 wrote: »

Greebo..On a number of occasions prior to commencing a match the GUI official has called both teams together and informed them that supporters must watch from the wings (not walk down middle of fairways with players) and not approach players as it will be deemed giving advice and will result in los of hole. Now in fairness the talk was always given prior to playing one particular club who are known for having supporters who inform players of breaks on greens and club them on par threes . Friom what you are sying it is objective and depends on the GUI official

Does that happen? It is over 10 years since I used play in interclub matches but I never saw spectactors from one team attempt to read greens or select a club for a player during a match, that is breaking the rules and will result in a penalty.

GreeBo

zolons wrote: »

Where is this info coming from? Does this mean that a spectator can step in and point out a breach of the rules or false interpretation? You may be right but i would certainly consider this giving advice as knowing the rules is as much a part of the game as any other aspect.

Providing information on facts (distance, rules, number of strokes taken etc) is not advice.

BoardsMember

I heard of a ladies interclub match recently, not sure the precise details, but its an example of where the GUI got involved. It was a singles match, played in Grange or Hermitage (as I say, cant remember the precise details). Anyhow, on the first t-box visting lady realises she does not have any balls, and asks her opponent for one. Home player duly obliges, gives her a sleeve of balls. Later in the round, home player loses two balls on same hole, reaches for another and realises she's none left. Opposition player still using the same ball she started with, so has two of her borrowed balls left. She refuses to give her one. Away player wont budge and claims match. Dispute is referred to GUI, who tell them to behave themselves, grow up, and play the match again.

Sligored

BoardsMember wrote: »

I heard of a ladies interclub match recently, not sure the precise details, but its an example of where the GUI got involved. It was a singles match, played in Grange or Hermitage (as I say, cant remember the precise details). Anyhow, on the first t-box visting lady realises she does not have any balls, and asks her opponent for one. Home player duly obliges, gives her a sleeve of balls. Later in the round, home player loses two balls on same hole, reaches for another and realises she's none left. Opposition player still using the same ball she started with, so has two of her borrowed balls left. She refuses to give her one. Away player wont budge and claims match. Dispute is referred to GUI, who tell them to behave themselves, grow up, and play the match again.

i think that would be the ilgu- now they are a law to themselves.
The gui would have made a decision based on the rules of golf- all eventualities are covered there.

zolons

SARZY wrote: »

So what is their role then ?

Abandon the game to cheats and get elected to eat steak and drink wine.

The game is being destroyed and they are the ruling body.

You need to be clearer whether your tallking about rule breaking, handicap cheats or the GUI as a whole.

As for rule breaking in interclub matches all I can think of is for them to arrange a referee to attend ever match which may not be feasabe. Having every club involved provide the "referees" to attend and offer a neutral opinionion may be an idea. However would the necessary people with adequate rules knowledge volunteer their time for this and would they be respected. I do think they take the easy way out by not getting involved in any match disputes and throwing out appeals that have some case without reason.

Regarding handicap cheats, the GUI have adopted and enforce the best system currently available (CONGU). They can hardly be expected to double check every .1, adjustment(or lack of) a handicap secretary does. Or is it that you think the GUI should individually test every single player and determine if their handicap is appropriate? What do you suggest??

zolons

GreeBo wrote: »

Providing information on facts (distance, rules, number of strokes taken etc) is not advice.

Interesting, source?

IITYWYBMAD

GreeBo wrote: »

Providing information on facts (distance, rules, number of strokes taken etc) is not advice.

I think you're wrong there GreeBo. If it is a fact that I hit a 7 iron to the green, I can't give advice on that AFAIK.

PhilipMarlowe

Guys, look up the definition of advice in your rules of golf book. Or try the new Rules of Golf explorer on the R&A site - http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/
(hover over the word "advice" in rule 8 for the definition), then read all the funky decisions on the rules on the right...

mr.mickels

BoardsMember wrote: »

I heard of a ladies interclub match recently, not sure the precise details, but its an example of where the GUI got involved. It was a singles match, played in Grange or Hermitage (as I say, cant remember the precise details). Anyhow, on the first t-box visting lady realises she does not have any balls, and asks her opponent for one. Home player duly obliges, gives her a sleeve of balls. Later in the round, home player loses two balls on same hole, reaches for another and realises she's none left. Opposition player still using the same ball she started with, so has two of her borrowed balls left. She refuses to give her one. Away player wont budge and claims match. Dispute is referred to GUI, who tell them to behave themselves, grow up, and play the match again.

In all seriousness some(many) of the ladies golfers who play competively are a horrible lot. I recall our club playing in the mixed 4s one year, had 5 good men on the team, handicaps would have been one very steady player off 6, perfect for 4somes, and the rest between scratch and 4, the ladies section was poor, not a single decent lady golfer in the club, I think 12 was the lowest lady, women playing off 20 think they are good!!! One of the 5 men was an older gent, playing off 6 at that stage, deadly short game, not a long hitter due to his age but always straight. The club didn't have any practice games or prior pairings due to lack of interest on the mens side, playing with the women in that club wasn't a pleasure. When we arrived at the start the team was read out and the lady who was to play with our 6 handicapper refused unless the pairings were changed as apparently she was too good to lower herself to play mixed 4s with a short hitting 6handicapper, I don't recall her hcp but it would have been no better than 15 or so. All the other ladies in the team sympathised with her and they were adamant that we find a replacement for the 6hper, this was about 30 mins before tee off in a club an hours drive away!!! We told the ladies they weren't fit to pull his bag not to mind play competively with him, there was alot more said from our side about what we thought of their upholding the spirit of the game before we got in our cars and drove home leaving them!!! The club didn't enter the mixed 4s for a long time after that.

G1032

Sligored wrote: »

Agreed - if there is anyone to blame for the irregularities in the handicap system , it is the golfers who manage their handicaps in this country and not the union who must follow the rules set down by congu.
For a country of our size we should be very proud of the gui and the work they do in bringing the likes of harrington, g mac , rory and shane lowry .There are a number of other players on the gui conveyor belt namely cutler , dunbar , mcelroy to name but a few.

Hear hear
Great Btirian also uses the CONGU system and from what I've been led to believe from a couple of friends from England there isn't this building of handicaps problem.
They are more concerned with shooting a good score rather than building a handicap to win a TV.
This handicap system works on the basic premise that everyone will try their best on every shot.
There is not much the GUI can do if the golfers they govern play with no integrity.

fearruanua

gui website says the result of the match in question is "gui ruling pending"

mr.mickels

The guy who said "You F****** cheat" should be barred for a long number of years from any GUI team events and if the committee of the club in question had any self-respect they would offer an apology.

I have played interclub events in UK and I can tell you no messing or gamesmanship is tolerated there, they have a much larger respect for etiquette and the spirit of the game and generally-speaking on the golf course players behave themselves with due respect to other golfers much more so than over here. Alot less slow play over there, along with basic things like players repairing their own and other pitch marks alot more, players rake the bunkers after them, etc etc along with a generally more pleasant club atmosphere. The golfing scene has changed by and large over the last 20 years over here. I would say there is a far greater respect to the spirit of the game over there from what I have observed.

mr.mickels

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

I think you're wrong there GreeBo. If it is a fact that I hit a 7 iron to the green, I can't give advice on that AFAIK.

If you say what iron you hit prior to another player playing a similar shot then I would consider it as advice that should be penalised. Giving the yardage isn't the same as saying what club you hit.

D3PO

mr.mickels wrote: »

I have played interclub events in UK and I can tell you no messing or gamesmanship is tolerated there, they have a much larger respect for etiquette and the spirit of the game and generally-speaking on the golf course players behave themselves with due respect to other golfers much more so than over here. I would say there is a far greater respect to the spirit of the game over there from what I have observed.

Bit of a sweeping generalisation. UK golfers can be just as bad. Poulter v Molianari in the WGC Matchplay recently anyone ....

IITYWYBMAD

mr.mickels wrote: »

If you say what iron you hit prior to another player playing a similar shot then I would consider it as advice that should be penalised. Giving the yardage isn't the same as saying what club you hit.

I'd agree, but that was not my point. My point is that there are many facts available to golfers while playing in a round. Giving advice on facts, as a 'general rule' should not be adopted.

PhilipMarlowe

Call it 'Public Information' then instead of 'fact'.

the rule book wrote:

"Advice" is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke.

Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice.

mr.mickels

zolons wrote: »

2up playing 17th in deciding match. Individual touched his ball with clubhead as he addressed the ball but it did not move. He consulted his foursomes partner who explained to him that it was not a penalty as it didnt move and he proceded to take the shot after the oppositions pair had no issue with the judgement. As they made their way up the fairway the player was approached by an member of the opposition who had completed his match and accused of being a "f***ing cheat" out loud in front of the crowd and more people rallied behind the accuser.

The accuser claimed the ball had moved which he said was a stroke and so the player had played out of turn and therefore the hole was over. Aside from the fact that it is a fundamental rule of interclub comps that only a captain or playing partner can give advice which holds a penalty of loss of hole itself it has to be down to the player to judge whether or not the ball had moved. Regardless of whether the ball moved the order of play does not change for a penalty and also it does not lead to loss of hole you go back and have the correct player replay the shot.

As it was an away match for those involved it was not an easy position to be in and they were intimidated into conceding the hole even though they correctly believed they had done nothing wrong. They went on to lose the match as you may expect after the ordeal. Rulings found to be incorrect later on and disputes regarding rules are done and dusted once the match continues with the next hole however the manner with which these rulings were imposed, the behaviour of individuals involved and the win at all costs attitude of people is unacceptable. The organising committee of any tournament has the right to disqualify an individual for a serious breach of etiquette but i'm sure they will not so to not set a precedent for future disputes. I believe they should make an example of those involved.

What was the outcome of this in the end?