Terran and Zerg Silver/Gold Partner

godspal

I recently been playing a lot of Z v P games against an SC2 friends, and my game against P has really improved. But I really need to improve my Z, and while T is alright, there is not point letting it lag behind.

The thing is I would need/want someone who is able to play some bo3 most nights. And is pretty much dedicated to getting better (watching day[9], practising builds etc.)
I would greatly appreciate a bit of help in this regard. Thanks in advance to whoever decides to join me for some practice.

IRL_Sinister

What Builds are you currently using vs the respective races? (What race are you)

EDIT: Zerg, nevermind can't help. Doubt my Z is much higher than Plat ^^

godspal

its changing a bit... So:

Terran:
-14 Gas
-14 Pool
-16 Expo

Protoss (small map):
-13 Pool
-12 Gas
-15 Hatch

Protoss (large map):
-13 Hatch
-15 Pool

Zerg:
Well nothing seems to work for me, but these the builds I have been giving a decent try.

-15 Hatch
-15 Pool (Fail)

-14 Gas
-14 Pool
-16 RW (Fail)

-14 Gas
-14 Pool
-16 BN
-20 RW (Fail)

7RR & 5 RR have failed as well.

The problem I find with Z v Z is that I can either get my troops out quickly and I fall behind on economy, or expand and lose my expo. Its my worst match by far.

UnholyGregor

wow, you 13pool v protoss?
dude, 15 hatch 15pool in all matchups, really, iots by far the best opener for zerg.
It can be tricky to hold in a zvz, but 15hatch, 15poo, 17gas, and 19/20 roach warren will hold pretty much any ling bane all ins.

Also, theres no excuse for not going 15hatch vs terran or toss.

watch this.
http://blip.tv/learn-from-the-pros-with-mr-b/zvz-with-ret-4606171
skip in about ten mins, the start is just him waiting for ret to join
(its a coaching session with liquidret recorded)

Funky

UnholyGregor wrote: »

Also, theres no excuse for not going 15hatch vs terran or toss.

Cannons.

godspal

just lost to a cannon rush! so very annoying!

UnholyGregor

Funky wrote: »

Cannons.

can be beaten on almost every map with correct drone control, and good scout timing
on certain maps, like taldarim altar, its pretty hard to stop though, but usually its not too bad

Funky

UnholyGregor wrote: »

can be beaten on almost every map with correct drone control, and good scout timing
on certain maps, like taldarim altar, its pretty hard to stop though, but usually its not too bad

Plenty of places you can wall off using pylons or a low ground cannon to ensure you get a cannon up on other maps. Plus the chances are you won't even be able to do a 15 hatch since a probe will block it meaning you need to know how to play pool first for most games whether you like it or not.

UnholyGregor

Funky wrote: »

Plenty of places you can wall off using pylons or a low ground cannon to ensure you get a cannon up on other maps.

Ramp blocks are pretty all in and cheesey fom the protoss, if you can stop it without too much damage, you have a huge lead. Its basically a coinflip, like any cheese. This is no reason not to want to go 15hatch whenever possible.

If you go 15hatch, you're obviously gonna be vulnerable to cheesey builds. but this doesnt diminish the fact that 15hatch is the best opening a zerg can do.

Funky

UnholyGregor wrote: »

Ramp blocks are pretty all in and cheesey fom the protoss, if you can stop it without too much damage, you have a huge lead. Its basically a coinflip, like any cheese. This is no reason not to want to go 15hatch whenever possible.

If you go 15hatch, you're obviously gonna be vulnerable to cheesey builds. but this doesnt diminish the fact that 15hatch is the best opening a zerg can do.

Fair enough, you will lose plenty of games to cannon rushes that aren't coin flips or all-in though if you always try hatch first. It makes no sense to recommend it to a learning player as 'the bestest build ever lolz' when it's in no way safe. They won't have perfect drone control or perfect scouting and if the toss player knows abusable places that won't even matter.

Obviously hatch first is the best opening since it's the most economic, that's like saying nexus first is the best opening for toss but it comes down to risk vs reward.

Why do you think pro zergs pool first the vast majority of games?

UnholyGregor

Funky wrote: »

Why do you think pro zergs pool first the vast majority of games?

They don't. Pros nearly always go 15hatch, unless its very close rush distances, are they scout some super fast 2rax or 2gate.
The only time zergs don't intentionally fe is v toss, because they know that the toss will pylon block it. Zerg want to go 15hatch, but if its a 2player map, they know the toss will be able to block it, so they just go 14 or 15 pool and then 18/19 hatch.

as for lower level players not wanting to 15hatch, it is understandable, as they might not be able to micro well enough to defend a bunker rush or cannons, but only way they will learn is by experience.

And, on the contrary to what you said, 15hatch isn't risky at all, if the zerg player executes it properly. Sure, if you proxy gate+forge cannon rush me, i will die, but its a coinflip in that situation. In general, 15hatch is zerg best opening.

Cannon rushes aren't nearly as dangerous as you're making them out to be. pull 5 or 6 drones and you will shut it down easily, and won't lose that much mining time.

The only time a cannon rush works is a) if the zerg isnt keeping an eye on his hatch, which is his carelessness. and b) if its super all in, and cheese is cheese...

Funky

Well your opinion is your opinion I guess. But the pros don't hatch first vs toss most of the time, that much is fact.

UnholyGregor

Funky wrote: »

the pros don't hatch first vs toss most of the time, that much is fact.

wrong.
really, i dont know what 'pros' you're watching, but they're definately not the pros who's reps i study. Really, zerg only pool first on 2player maps v toss, cos they know it will be blocked.

i dont know whaere you're getting these 'facts' from, but zerg only willingly pools first v toss on taldarim altar, cos its very hard to defend cannons.

IRL_Sinister

Funky wrote: »

Well your opinion is your opinion I guess. But the pros don't hatch first vs toss most of the time, that much is fact.

As demonstrated at MLG, DH and HSC3.

Funky

UnholyGregor wrote: »

wrong.
really, i dont know what 'pros' you're watching, but they're definately not the pros who's reps i study. Really, zerg only pool first on 2player maps v toss, cos they know it will be blocked.

i dont know whaere you're getting these 'facts' from, but zerg only willingly pools first v toss on taldarim altar, cos its very hard to defend cannons.

Watch more tournaments broski 8)

UnholyGregor

the only time a zerg wont hatch first is if they know it will be bocked, hence them rarely getting the opportunity at a high level, cos the toss arent stupid, and will always block it.

There is no denying, however, that 15hatch 15pool is zergs best opening, and given the opportunity, zerg should always do it. which is what i was trying to tell godspal in the 1st place. This isn't an argument about the frequency of pool 1st openings at a high level. Given the opportunity, zerg always wants to 15hatch.

well, thats my 2cents.... but what do i know about playing zerg?..........

Khazidhea

Nestea did not 15 hatch once in his series vs sc. And he's probably the best zerg in the world, right?

Moon went gas first, pool, fast speed on metalopolis vs HuK (just 1 example, I dont remember\didnt watch many of his games) in DH and he won DH.

But 15 hatch is rather standard, I like it

UnholyGregor

as i said alot of zerg have to go pool first cos it always gets blocked, and if you plan to do a pool first, its better than saving 300 mins then it getting blocked. Most pros have the timing worked out so that just as your first lings finish, you have 300 mins to expand.
that way they can prevent a block.But ultimately, everything a zerg does early is aimed towards getting a fast expansion. If you can get away with a 15 hatch, you should always go for it.

Khazidhea

Nah, the players I mentioned went for early pools just because they planned it like that.

Actually moon vs bomber on metalopolis also gas\pool:

http://blip.tv/day9tv/bomber-t-vs-moon-z-g3-dreamhack-summer-semifinals-5295902

Nothing blocking the expansion. Same thing in nestea vs sc. Terrans dont really block expansions ... they used to do that with ebay, but I havent seen this in a while.

UnholyGregor

moon rarely goes pool 1st, but thats his chioce. Perhaps hes aftraid of bombers 2rax abilities? but still, most pro zerg agree that 15hatch is the best build

IRL_Sinister

No they don't. You're wrong. Just like you were wrong about being the best player in Ireland. Get over it. Pro Zergs do NOT go 15 hatch first always. That's just plain false information.

Orizio

Idra goes gas/pool first no...?

UnholyGregor

Orizio wrote: »

Idra goes gas/pool first no...?

no. as i said about 5 times, only when hes gonna get pylon blocked. if he can get away with it, he goes 15 hatch 100% of the time.
he has stated this several times in casts and the replay analysis vids on youtube.

UnholyGregor

IRL_Sinister wrote: »

No they don't. You're wrong. Just like you were wrong about being the best player in Ireland. Get over it. Pro Zergs do NOT go 15 hatch first always. That's just plain false information.

lol diamond league protoss sinister's getting roudy
and, im pretty sure that i know zerg quite a bit better than you.

IRL_Sinister wrote: »

you were wrong about being the best player in Ireland. Get over it

To be honest, after reading this, it seems like you're just trying to start an argument, rather than help godspal.

IRL_Sinister

UnholyGregor wrote: »

lol diamond league protoss sinister's getting roudy
and, im pretty sure that i know zerg quite a bit better than you.

This statement is about as accurate as your Zerg theorycrafting. However, considering everyone else disagrees with you - including the pros - you must, therefore, be correct.

UnholyGregor

IRL_Sinister wrote: »

This statement is about as accurate as your Zerg theorycrafting. However, considering everyone else disagrees with you - including the pros - you must, therefore, be correct.

Okay godspal, dont listen to the master league zerg. listen to the diamond league protoss, he knows all about zerg builds.
Sinister, I wouldnt argue with you about protoss strats v zerg, cos i dont play toss. Your pratronising arrogance is painful. I've had enough of this thread. Godspal, good luck getting to master league playing zerg, perhaps some of these diamond league toss can help you, since they obviously know zerg better than i.

Also sinister, please watch this. You will find it quite enlightening.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9IZo8QuCVM&feature=channel_video_title
listen to what idra sais at 2:10

http://www.youtube.com/user/myEGnet#p/c/C85F8C52C2A4F81E/1/CACX-TJ8G5c

http://www.youtube.com/user/myEGnet#p/c/C85F8C52C2A4F81E/0/Nh415uO0aDk
look at 2:12 on that video. I believe idra sais ''you want to fast expand if you can, but I knew his probably would block it, so i didnt even bither trying, i just made the pool immediately''

Seems some pros disagree with you, sinister, but you're diamond league as protoss, you obviously know how to play zerg better than idra.

IRL_Sinister

Bye now.

UnholyGregor

IRL_Sinister wrote: »

Bye now.

lol,nice arguing skills. I remember i was called a troll on these forums a while ago, how ironic.

Godspal, 15hatch is the best build for zerg, period, As idra said, you always want to go 15hatch as zerg, but its usually blocked, so its very common for zerg to just open pool first, to avoid the inconvenience of planning on expanding then having a pylon blocking it.

IRL_Sinister

Considering it isn't online I'll just type it instead:

This thread needs the Carmac interviewing EGMachine video.

[The people on IRC will understand this for now :P]

Orizio

UnholyGregor wrote: »

no. as i said about 5 times, only when hes gonna get pylon blocked. if he can get away with it, he goes 15 hatch 100% of the time.
he has stated this several times in casts and the replay analysis vids on youtube.

...which is almost every ZvP. So his ZvP is indeed gas/pool first.

UnholyGregor

Orizio wrote: »

...which is almost every ZvP. So his ZvP is indeed gas/pool first.

thats not what i was arguing, i was explaining that 15hatch is zergs best opening, and, in the off chance that the toss cant block (eg. scouts wrong pos on 4player map), zerg should always ho 15hatch.
But actually, its about 50/50 weather zerg gets blocked or not, depending on the map of course

Fringe

Everyone agrees with you that hatch first is the most economic build. Everyone's just saying that it's not practical in ZvP. You'll either get pylon blocked or cannon rushed and that's why it's recommended to speedling expand instead. I've never seen Idra hatch first in ZvP when he streams. He always goes pool first and then gets his hatch at around 16.

UnholyGregor

Fringe wrote: »

Everyone agrees with you that hatch first is the most economic build. Everyone's just saying that it's not practical in ZvP. You'll either get pylon blocked or cannon rushed and that's why it's recommended to speedling expand instead. I've never seen Idra hatch first in ZvP when he streams. He always goes pool first and then gets his hatch at around 16.

actually, every time i said hatch first is the best build, some protoss scrub jumps in and sais ''OMG THE PROS DIDNT DO IT AT DREAMHACK'', without actually acknowledging that 15hatch is zergs best build, as i was advising godspal.
I am fully aware of how often a 15 hatch is block

ed, in my 1500-2000 games as zerg, I have been pylon blocked quite a bit...

and fyi, cannon rush doesn't beat 15hatch is the zerg is competent.

Funky

UnholyGregor wrote: »

and fyi, cannon rush doesn't beat 15hatch is the zerg is competent.

It's map dependant(maybe even position dependant sometimes I'm not 100% sure) and maybe you haven't seen them done but on some maps there's ways of cannoning where drones can't get at the cannon. 15 hatch isn't as safe as you're making it out to be. I'm not talking about ramp blocks, there's places where 2 pylons will lock out your drones or a low ground cannon where if you send drones to kill it you'll be behind since you've just lost a massive amount of mining time.

You talk like you being zerg gives you the ultimate knowledge of the matchup but you know in a ZvP there is a protoss player there too, and when it comes to cannon rushing and the subtleties that make them hard/impossible to beat at times (not just lol build out of vision!!!2) I'd imagine a protoss player's knowledge would be superior to a zergs.

Anyway this argument is going nowhere, you have your opinion and if you're happy with 15 hatching on any map if you can that's cool. You will die to cannons sometimes though.

UnholyGregor

Funky wrote: »

. You will die to cannons sometimes though.

No i wont, because im not dumb enough to let a probe go behind the mineral line at my nat and block in the cannons with 2 pylons... yeah, so ''subtle.''
The only map cannon rushing works is taldarim altar.

Funky

Okay guy. I'm sure you magically always have drones just chilling down at your natural while its building when a 2nd probe comes in. I guess not only are you more competent than many pro zergs but you're also clairvoyant, cool.

UnholyGregor

Funky wrote: »

Okay guy. I'm sure you magically always have drones just chilling down at your natural while its building when a 2nd probe comes in. I guess not only are you more competent than many pro zergs but you're also clairvoyant, cool.

See a probe going towards your nat, follow with a drone. see him building a pylon, pull 3/4 drones.
All the while, an overlord sits above my natural, Its not that complicated.

Funky

How do you see the probe going to your natural? Perfect scouting with 2 overlords on the map and maybe 1 drone on the way to the toss base? Not to mention that the probe you allegedly see coming to your natural is nowhere near your mining drones so I'm not sure exactly how you'd just follow it...

UnholyGregor

Funky wrote: »

How do you see the probe going to your natural? Perfect scouting with 2 overlords on the map and maybe 1 drone on the way to the toss base? Not to mention that the probe you allegedly see coming to your natural is nowhere near your mining drones so I'm not sure exactly how you'd just follow it...

overlord one- opponents base.
overlord two- above your natural. complicated,eh?

Funky

UnholyGregor wrote: »

overlord one- opponents base.
overlord two- above your natural. complicated,eh?

It's complicated trying to figure out how it has any relevance to what we were talking about. Maybe you can dig up an idra quote to enlighten me?

IRL_Sinister

Funky wrote: »

It's complicated trying to figure out how it has any relevance to what we were talking about. Maybe you can dig up an idra quote to enlighten me?

Funky, mate, after days of searching for the IdrA quotes and analyses this guy likes to talk about I came across this in-depth analysis from IdrA himself. This is all you need to understand the relevance of this Thread.

You are all welcome.

Sinister~

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpM0wPKBOro

EDIT: I highly suggest people watch this video; it's very enlightening.
EDIT 2: As you may have guessed, just like IdrA (above) UnholyGregor never loses against Protoss when he goes for a riskier build that (as proven in theorycraft) gives little benefit over a pool-first build (other than the fact you get 100 gas faster while having a better defense and a quicker Queen - all minor details for a player learning to get better)

UnholyGregor

IRL_Sinister wrote: »

as proven in theorycraft

thats intelligent of you...

and funky, somehow, you dont seem to understand this.
if i put my 2nd overlord above my natural, there is no way i can lose to a cannon rush, as i will see your probe (and then follow with a a drone)

Funky

UnholyGregor wrote: »

and funky, somehow, you dont seem to understand this.
if i put my 2nd overlord above my natural, there is no way i can lose to a cannon rush, as i will see your probe (and then follow with a a drone)

Yep you're right. I didn't understand that the basic zerg overlord placement from day one of beta made you impervious to cannon rushes.

UnholyGregor

Funky wrote: »

Yep you're right. I didn't understand

/thread

RoyalMarine

best thread ever = KOTH
second best thread ever = THIS

/thread